Did I become TFG?

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**Orkeosaurus**

I would say helping the Tau player was possibly interfering more than necessary. Not a crime, but not really something I would do.

However, keeping the chaos player from cheating was perfectly in line. It's one thing for someone to put themselves at a disadvantage, and quite another to cheat your opponent.

**Defiler**

Pointing out rules that are being followed incorrectly isn't being TFG.

Giving actual tactical advice is grounds for that title.

But either way, I'll say probably. But then again, I don't really care if war gamers get upset with me if I point out they are cheating, or if they are conveniently allowing a newer player to forget their own rules.

Sometimes people forget their guns are twin-linked, for example. Unless the chaos player was just wildly unfamiliar with Tau rules, he should have spoken up himself. I mean, someone who has been playing since 3rd edition should know that two guns on the same mount = twin link just by looking at the model.

I suspect he was allowing mistakes to slide to increase his chances of winning.

**grizgrin**

Defiler wrote:...I suspect he was allowing mistakes to slide to increase his chances of winning.

I've seen people do this, but sometimes you find people who are of the opinion that they are not going to play someone else's army for them. That people who play an army have to learn their own rules sometime, and first. 5 or 6 games under his belt, some would be of the opinion that the kid should know that his biggest AT weapons were TL and exactly what that entails. Others would not.

Just wanted o point that out.

**with an iron fist**

These people are LYING TO YOU. YOU ARE SO TFG! YOU ARE TFG! TFG!! TFG!!!!!!!!!!!!

The Fun Gamer.

Clearly you want the game to be fun, and took an opportunity to assist others in enjoying it. But instead of asking questions you'll save yourself from stupid looks and comments by stating what the rule is.

I've had cases of new players (none of whom were old enough to fall in that "for ages 12 and up" range - which exists for a reason) trying to quote rules.

They don't quote rules anymore. Especially the 35 year old.

**asugradinwa**

I choose to ask the questions for two reasons:

1: I don't play chaos Space marines so on the off chance there is some upgrade that makes a unit fearless I asked questions in case I was actually wrong.

2. While I think the Chaos Space Marine player was trying to win at all costs I wanted to give him an out in case he really didn't know the rules.

**Orkeosaurus**

Very Socratic of you.

**Chrysaor686**

I would not in any way consider this to be TFG material.

In fact, it's basically the opposite of TFG. The guy playing the side of Chaos, he was the TFG. Not you.

**Grot 6**

asugradinwa wrote:Here is the story:

I'm involved in a weekly 40k game at my FLGS, now this is good fun and all but also competitive because of the prizes given each week and at the end of the 8 week Campaign. So my game finished early and I started to watch another game. One of the players was Tau and the other was playing chaos. After a turn or two I noticed the chaos player wasn't taking wounds when his combi plasma's rolled a 1, using his FNP rolls even when hit by a rail gun single shot, and not allocating wounds before he rolled the dice. The Tau player was pretty new and also didn't reroll misses on his twin linked rail guns, or his drones.

So then I started asking questions after a dice roll...

"Arn't rail guns on the broadsides twin linked?" "To get the Tau player to reroll the misses"

"Don't you have an aspiring Champ in that group of marines?" To get the Chaos marine player to start allocating.

"I didn't know that that unit was fearless" When the choas player should have made a moral check.

All questions I knew the answer to.

Of course this started to turn the tide of battle greatly in the Tau player's favor.

Finally I asked :

"I didn't know Feel No Pain can be used on AP1 wounds" when the Chaos player tried to use FNP again on a railgun wound.

At this point he turned to me and said "I didn't bother you in your game, get the hell out of mine!"

I realized I had gone too far. I left sortly after. By calling the chaos player out on the rules was I becoming TFG?

Had the chaos been playing against someone really versed in the rules to call him out I doubt he would have done everything he did, but the other guy had only played 5 or 6 40k games ever. So here is my question when you notice one person really ignoring the rules, bording on what I'd consider cheating, do you say something? If so, how?

Thanks!

The fact that YOU know you went over the line on questioning the Chaos guy indicates that you know your limits.
You are not TFG.
The Chaos player, on the other hand clearly fits into the TFG status by default. He knew exactly what he was doing, and when you called him on it, he got upset.
Had he just made a few tactical errors, or jived an inch here and there, or made a mistake, then that would have been like, " Hey, thanks. Here, check over the rule," or "I'd better recheck the codex," or else he would have given you a little ribbing for giving him static. When he went ball busting, then that’s when he knew he crossed the line.

Gamers are notorious ball busters, and we can be pretty playful in our ribbing to put it politely in our various groups that we play with.
THIS guy, if he acted like that should be blackballed for being an ass. It’s bad enough that he did it to some guy that didn't know any better, but he was outright blatant about it.

I hate playing against cats like that. These guys are the ones that give playing the game a bad name.

I can’t necessarily let the Tau guy off the hook, though. But if he wants to play, he should know what he’s playing with, as well.

You could have kept your mouth shut and let the guy get away with being a ponce if you wanted, but don’t expect the cheat to stop if someone doesn’t call him out on being a tool.

No blood, no foul.

**olympia**

Well done for you to call him on his cheating. Incidentally, it seems that every TFG I meet is a CSM player. What gives?

**grizgrin**

About the only time I annoyed at all about people butting in is when they are slowing down the game and a time frame is involved, or if they start spewing tactical advice. Esp. if I have laid an ambush of some sort and ole RichardHead tells my opponent "Oh the Noes!!! Don't move there or his ambush will hit you!"

feth sake folks, while I believe that it IS just a game, there IS a certain competative element to playing. Don't feth with me, I suck enough as it is.

**Mattlov**

olympia wrote:Well done for you to call him on his cheating. Incidentally, it seems that every TFG I meet is a CSM player. What gives?

People who play Chaos are already warped anyway. To their mutated minds, it isn't cheating, but using rules from alternate dimensions. Besides, GW hates Chaos so much in all their games they that Chaos players have to try to get some advantage...

But as others have said, you are not TFG. Reminding people of the proper rules for both sides, even during a tournament is actually good sportsmanship.

I also agree with Grot 6 over the ball-busting commentary.

**willydstyle**

In my mind, the reaction of the chaos player to your rules-based comments is what seals the deal. HE was being "TFG" because if he weren't trying to pull one over on the Tau player, he'd have welcomed solid rules advice.

**H.B.M.C.**

asugradinwa wrote:Did I become TFG?

No asugradinwa, you are the TFG.

And then asugradinwa was the TFG.

BYE

**Osbad**

The very fact that you question yourself as to whether you *may* be TFG implies to me that you are probably not.

In my experience the main qualification for being TFG is not giving a flying proverbial about what anyone else thinks of you!

**Grandmaster**

I agree your not TFG.

I often help the noob when playing certain Vets as i know they will let them forget the rules!

Sometimes its the only way to teach people as unbiased watcher. As when playing it can be a bit painful to remind your opponent of the rules, when its not in your favour. ie twin linked. (especially when you have my dice luck :( )

Most games i play are for fun so its not a problem when people butt in as it can make for a laugh

**Bunker**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
asugradinwa wrote:Did I become TFG?

No asugradinwa, you are the TFG.

And then asugradinwa was the TFG.

BYE

Gold, pure gold.

**JohnHwangDD**

asugradinwa wrote:I'm involved in a weekly 40k game at my FLGS, now this is good fun and all but also competitive because of the prizes given each week and at the end of the 8 week Campaign.

I noticed the chaos player wasn't taking wounds when his combi plasma's rolled a 1, using his FNP rolls even when hit by a rail gun single shot, and not allocating wounds before he rolled the dice. The Tau player was pretty new and also didn't reroll misses on his twin linked rail guns, or his drones.

At this point he turned to me and said "I didn't bother you in your game, get the hell out of mine!"

By calling the chaos player out on the rules was I becoming TFG?

when you notice one person really ignoring the rules, bording on what I'd consider cheating, do you say something?

OK, you're playing for prizes with actual value.

Does the Chaos player know how he *should* be playing? Obviously, the Tau player doesn't. Also, were any of the "mistakes" in the Tau player's direction?

"Sure, I'll be happy to leave - just as soon as you stop cheating... In the mean time, how about you start playing by the rules?" He'd have a legitimate beef with you if you were giving tactical advice, but that wasn't the case. You were stepping in as an impartial referee, and when one player is clearly taking advantage of the other there isn't anything wrong with this.

Nope. You're stopping him from taking a prize that he didn't earn.

If it's a true "friendly" game without anything on the line, then you can ask if both players are playing by "house" rules. However, when prizes are on the line, and you're also in competition for those prizes, then things take a very different turn.

**Pariah Press**

My opinion:

If you were invited to provide rules advice, then you're in the clear. If you just butted in on someone else's game and started kibitzing and slowing down the game, you are TFG. It shouldn't matter if its a "competitive" game or not; unless you're the judge, don't interfere with the game unless invited to do so.

**KingCracker**

I thikn you did what was not only right, but what most veterans of the rules should do. Thats how the first game I played on my own went. The guy was cheating his ASS off and I was taking a rather bad beating. When finally the rule god of our group finished his game and started doing the "hey wtf are you doing? you cant do that" to the other player. I still ended up loosing but I made a pretty strong come back. Honestly If it werent for him, I would of thought man I SUCK at this game.
Your a genuine hero!

**Frazzled**

JohnHwangDD wrote:
"Sure, I'll be happy to leave - just as soon as you stop cheating... In the mean time, how about you start playing by the rules?"

Wow thats an amazingly good way to start a geek fight. I hope someone brings a camera.

**chaplaingrabthar**

JohnHwangDD wrote:"Sure, I'll be happy to leave - just as soon as you stop cheating... In the mean time, how about you start playing by the rules?"

That's what I love about you, John, how amazingly non-confrontational and polite you can be...

**olympia**

JohnHwangDD wrote:
"Sure, I'll be happy to leave - just as soon as you stop cheating... In the mean time, how about you start playing by the rules?"

This is preferable to the faux-questioning strategy. Best just to call someone on their bs. For an adult to be as sloppy as was described by the OP is unacceptable. The player was either cheating outright or is willfully ignorant. Neither of these should be tolerated.

**themandudeperson**

See? This is typically why I try to volunteer to play friendly games against newer players. I make it a point to resist providing tactical advice, unless my opponent is doing something totally blunderous, unless they ask. Then I give them advice on the 2-3 decisions I would choose from and let them know the potential ups and downs of each choice. Since it's their first game, I often make an intentional "mistake" to see if they'll capitalize on it. Something like moving the wrong way or leaving an IC out in the open to be shot. And mostly I focus my efforts on ensuring they play by both the game rules and their codex's rules as closely as possible. Typically I lose these games, either through throwing them or because I'm more focused on rules than strategy.

**whatwhat**

JohnHwangDD wrote:"Sure, I'll be happy to leave - just as soon as you stop cheating... In the mean time, how about you start playing by the rules?"

TFG!

**J.Black**

An easy way to find out if someone is intentionally cheating would have been to grab another couple of veteran players, tell them what was happening then form a phalanx around the table.

If the player carrys on regardless then it's probably just a case of the lift not going all the way to the top.

If there is sudden back-tracking and "just let me check my codex", "I'm not totally sure if that's right" etc etc my guess is that he's cheating scum who should be re-educated with the nearest blunt object.

**grizgrin**

Had a case years ago of a guy (we're both in our thirties) who suddenly lost all sense of direction. I rolled scatter for a battle cannon shot. the arrow was pointing damn near right at me, scattering into a tight clench of his nightlords. He was saying that the arrow pointed directly along the long centerline of the board, 90 degrees out from where I saw it. I was flabbergasted. He just calmly told me that's what he saw. I grabbed a couple of buddies to show them, long time competitive players. 15 seconds later voices are getting raised. I calmed everyone down, sent my bros off on their way, and proceeded to finish dealin the nightlord player a beatin. Resolved never to play this guy again. Regardless of the why, this was just wierd.

No clue why. Never saw him again. Was really sad, b/c he was a pretty good player with beautiful painting. I dunno what happened. I DO know that all this internet tough guy crap would never had occurred. There are other ways to punish a gamer.

**JohnHwangDD**

chaplaingrabthar wrote:
That's what I love about you, John, how amazingly non-confrontational and polite you can be...

When it's teed up nice and high, sometimes you gotta crush the ball!

So yeah, that was deliberately OTT.
____

olympia wrote:This is preferable to the faux-questioning strategy. Best just to call someone on their bs. For an adult to be as sloppy as was described by the OP is unacceptable. The player was either cheating outright or is willfully ignorant. Neither of these should be tolerated.

Yeah, seriously, who needs to resort to bush league stuff against a n00b?

**Cygnwulf**

Frazzled wrote:Whats wrong with New Coke vs. Old Coke?

Sorry, thats about as relevant.

I'd be inclined to say playing with the rules IS relavant if you're playing in a competitive event. Maybe it wouldn't be such a big deal in friendly games, but even then unless the newbie is aware that you're playing with some form of house rules, playing things by the book is probably better.

As for the whole question of Cheating/Just not remembering, I think his reaction answers that question. If he just couldn't remember his rules, I doubt he would have been quite as nasty about it. Were it me, after he snapped at me like that, I'd of asked him if he'd rather wait till the judge got back.

A small, tiny little voice somewhere near my left shoulder compells me to mention this though: In his defense, players in a competitive, tournament enviroment should be at least fairly familiar with the core rules. BUT I don't really want to come off trying to say that newbies shouldn't play in tournaments either, so I have a little bit of a dilemma there...

**mussie76**

From what you say a newbie was being taken advantage of (forgetting a rule is onething, not abiding by a rule because your opponent new and unaware is another) by an experienced player which is cheating in my book (some thing I just dont understand ya may as well save a few hours and just say you won) if this is the case and you were not helping the tau player make tactical decisions and sitting there smirking like a smug prick at the Chaos player then you were in the right END OF STORY

and while i am here WTF is a TFG

**Sidstyler**

A tiffguh!

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