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Okay, so I know that nightshields shave 6" off of a weapon's range, however do they also shave off the close range of a Melta?

Example: I now have to be within 9 inches to get a second armor penetration die to roll for a multimelta hit instead of being at 12 inches because the overall range was decreased from 24 inches to 18 inches ?

No.

Melta Works at Half of the weapons Maximum Range. Maximum being the keyword.

So for Example a Multimelta Has a Maximum Range of 24". This is Reduced to 18" because of the Night Shield, but its Maximum (i.e. the Farthest I can normally Fire) isa still 24"

Waaaaaaagh! wrote:No.

Melta Works at Half of the weapons Maximum Range. Maximum being the keyword.

So for Example a Multimelta Has a Maximum Range of 24". This is Reduced to 18" because of the Night Shield, but its Maximum (i.e. the Farthest I can normally Fire) isa still 24"

I'm not so sure this is as clear cut as you make it simply because maximum range is never clearly defined. The maximum range when shooting at a vehicle with night shields is 18", because it simply cannot hit the target at a distance greater than 18". Maximum range could simply refer to the range listed on the weapons profile as you say, or it could be a modifiable value which can change from shot to shot. It's all about the scope within which maximum distance is defined and this is information we aren't given.

You would have to bewithin 6 inches of the vehicle to get the extra dice due to its vehiclee is still 6 inches farther way.


easy way to put it for extra crispy with a multimelta you would have to be 6 inches away from a vehicle with night shields
and with a meltaqgun you would either have to be in base contact or within f a inch of the vehicle.

AS i would called it playing dark elder formany years

'Maximum range' doesn't need to be defined in the rules. Even if it can't fire that far at the current time, it's maximum range is unchanged.

Ghaz wrote:'Maximum range' doesn't need to be defined in the rules. Even if it can't fire that far at the current time, it's maximum range is unchanged.

But the nightshileds DO define it and change it. It lowers your max range of the weapon by 6". There fore the number that you cut in half for melta to work is lowered...

asugradinwa wrote:Okay, so I know that nightshields shave 6" off of a weapon's range, however do they also shave off the close range of a Melta?

Nightshields don't reduce your weapons range, neither do they reduce your half range either.

What they do is make the vehicle an extra 6" away, so that means when checking to see if you're in short range the vehicle counts as being 6" further away because thats what it does.

Example: You have a meltagun at 5" range, the vehicle 'counts as' being at 11" range, and thus not within half range of the weapon.

Reading, its not just a city near London.

burb1996 wrote:But the nightshileds DO define it and change it. It lowers your max range of the weapon by 6".

Please actually read the rule before commenting. From page 13 of Codex Dark Eldar:

This has the effect of adding 6" to the range from enemy units wishing to fire at a vehicle with a Night Shield.

So once again, the weapon's range is never changed. In essence, the target is simply moved six inches further away.

Ghaz wrote:

This has the effect of adding 6" to the range from enemy units wishing to fire at a vehicle with a Night Shield.

So once again, the weapon's range is never changed. In essence, the target is simply moved six inches further away.

The way I'm reading it then, a DE vehicle with this upgrade that is 1" away from a model firing at it with a Meltagun counts as being 7" away, which would put it out of the 1/2 range needed to get the bonus penetration die, correct?

Looks like the thread got off on the wrong foot, should have re-checked my codex dark eldar.

In light of re-reading the rules it's really alot more simple than I had first assumed, you measure the range, then you add 6" to the measured range, and count the new value as the distance, so a meltagun would need to be in base to base to get the bonus penetration dice and a multi melta would need to be within 6".

yakface wrote:

Ghaz wrote:

This has the effect of adding 6" to the range from enemy units wishing to fire at a vehicle with a Night Shield.

So once again, the weapon's range is never changed. In essence, the target is simply moved six inches further away.

The way I'm reading it then, a DE vehicle with this upgrade that is 1" away from a model firing at it with a Meltagun counts as being 7" away, which would put it out of the 1/2 range needed to get the bonus penetration die, correct?

That is Correct. This Means Meltaguns wont ever get their Extra d6 (as they cant be closer than 1" and be able to shoot) and Melta Pistols (ala Witch/DaemonHunters and Dante) wont ever be able to shoot ^^,

Waaaaaaagh! wrote:
That is Correct. This Means Meltaguns wont ever get their Extra d6 (as they cant be closer than 1" and be able to shoot) and Melta Pistols (ala Witch/DaemonHunters and Dante) wont ever be able to shoot ^^,

Except DoG shots which don't use range.

If you successfully stop the tank, it’s placed 1” away from the D&G'ing unit, right?

Webbe wrote:

Waaaaaaagh! wrote:
That is Correct. This Means Meltaguns wont ever get their Extra d6 (as they cant be closer than 1" and be able to shoot) and Melta Pistols (ala Witch/DaemonHunters and Dante) wont ever be able to shoot ^^,

Except DoG shots which don't use range.

Ah woops, I forgot about DoG. ya in that Case if the Tank with a Night Field tankshocks a unit and the Meltaguy DoG's then he would be in base contact (0" if you're not an asshat, 0.0000000000001" if you are) which means you would get the extra D6 cause it counts as 6" away (or if you are an asshat they dont because it is 6.0000000000001" away. But this situation is why they still make the rulebook a 300 page Harback monster )

Waaaaaaagh! wrote:Ah woops, I forgot about DoG. ya in that Case if the Tank with a Night Field tankshocks a unit and the Meltaguy DoG's then he would be in base contact (0" if you're not an asshat, 0.0000000000001" if you are) which means you would get the extra D6 cause it counts as 6" away (or if you are an asshat they dont because it is 6.0000000000001" away. But this situation is why they still make the rulebook a 300 page Harback monster )

Or you could try just reading it because DoG shots don't use range meaning everything you just said is wrong and pointless. Try opening the hardback monster someday, you'll find theres all sort of interesting stuff in there...

Hymirl wrote:

Waaaaaaagh! wrote:Ah woops, I forgot about DoG. ya in that Case if the Tank with a Night Field tankshocks a unit and the Meltaguy DoG's then he would be in base contact (0" if you're not an asshat, 0.0000000000001" if you are) which means you would get the extra D6 cause it counts as 6" away (or if you are an asshat they dont because it is 6.0000000000001" away. But this situation is why they still make the rulebook a 300 page Harback monster )

Or you could try just reading it because DoG shots don't use range meaning everything you just said is wrong and pointless. Try opening the hardback monster someday, you'll find theres all sort of interesting stuff in there...

Wow, someone's got a Sandy Vagina today

You're right, I'm sorry for suggesting that its a bad thing for you to spam everywhere. Actually why don't you do write rubbish in all the other threads too?

Hymirl wrote:You're right, I'm sorry for suggesting that its a bad thing for you to spam everywhere. Actually why don't you do write rubbish in all the other threads too?

Ok then Internet Tough Guy, Can you give me the Page Reference where it says "DoG shots don't use range" please? Im Looking at my rulebook here and see no Such Line.

Waaaaaaagh! wrote:Ok then Internet Tough Guy, Can you give me the Page Reference where it says "DoG shots don't use range" please? Im Looking at my rulebook here and see no Such Line.

Ok then Spammer*, I'll explain the rules to you if you like.

The reason you don't use range is because range checking is part of the shooting rules. DoG doesn't ask you to check range, therefore you can't be out of range because the question wasn't asked.

At this point you're going to go "Aha, so you didn't find whee it says 'DoG shots don't use range,' you lose!"
But the fact is that the rules are permissive and you only do what they instruct you to do and no more. It says a single attack of some kind and thats all you do. Suggesting that the words "don't use range" are needed is about as useful as drawing special significancy to the fact that neither does it say "may not change into blue and red spandex and fly away into the sky like superman." If its not in the rule, you don't do it.


*(Yeah, I just want to be like the cool kids by opening my posts with an insult as well...)

Hymirl wrote:

Waaaaaaagh! wrote:Ok then Internet Tough Guy, Can you give me the Page Reference where it says "DoG shots don't use range" please? Im Looking at my rulebook here and see no Such Line.

Ok then Spammer*, I'll explain the rules to you if you like.

The reason you don't use range is because range checking is part of the shooting rules. DoG doesn't ask you to check range, therefore you can't be out of range because the question wasn't asked.

At this point you're going to go "Aha, so you didn't find whee it says 'DoG shots don't use range,' you lose!"
But the fact is that the rules are permissive and you only do what they instruct you to do and no more. It says a single attack of some kind and thats all you do. Suggesting that the words "don't use range" are needed is about as useful as drawing special significancy to the fact that neither does it say "may not change into blue and red spandex and fly away into the sky like superman." If its not in the rule, you don't do it.


*(Yeah, I just want to be like the cool kids by opening my posts with an insult as well...)

-Shrug- You didn't show me what I asked, therefore you lose.

You know, you could make higher quality argument if you put your fingers in your ears and sang "I can't hear you" repeatedly until everyone went away.

However Hymril, you have NOT proven that range is irrelevent during a DOG. By which I mean that nowhere in DOG does it say to ignore special rules; When firing a meltagun you have to check if the model is within a certain distance (half max range) to determine how many dice to roll for penetration. Same goes with a DOG attack from a Conversion Beamer. You HAVE to know what the range is to determine how such weapons work.

yakface wrote:
The way I'm reading it then, a DE vehicle with this upgrade that is 1" away from a model firing at it with a Meltagun counts as being 7" away, which would put it out of the 1/2 range needed to get the bonus penetration die, correct?

Correct. It makes you add 6 inches to your range.
That said, Unless its Vect's Ravager that melta should cut right through it.

edit:
Death or Glory *should* be resolved at range 0 as the vehicle is effectively assaulting the target unit. I always resolve it that way so thre's no issue.

Lordhat wrote:However Hymril, you have NOT proven that range is irrelevent during a DOG.

And yet you've not proven what the actual range is. Where do the rules say what range the Death or Glory attack occurs at? Where does it say that it's at 0", or 6", or 12" even?

Ghaz wrote:

Lordhat wrote:However Hymril, you have NOT proven that range is irrelevent during a DOG.

And yet you've not proven what the actual range is. Where do the rules say what range the Death or Glory attack occurs at? Where does it say that it's at 0", or 6", or 12" even?

Ah, of course the rules don't state what range it is. Tape measures do.

The rules DO state:

BGB pg. 32 wrote:.....They roll an extra d6 when rolling to penetrate a vehicle's Armour Value at half range or less. If the weapon is more than half it's maximum range away, a single D6 is rolled.

I submit that there are only 2 ways to determine the range of anything in 40k: A tape measure, and the flamer template. Although the Template HAS a range it is not a number, and (I think) immune to the Shadow Field. However eveything else uses the tape measure, and has 6" added to the actual distance measured to a Shadow Field. Therefore when determining range for a DOG, in absence of a specific rule, you would use the general rule: Measure, then add 6 for the SF. Since the DOG happens only when a unit is CONTACTED, then the resultant measurement would equal 6" (0 for contact, +6 for the Shadow Field), and grant an extra d6 for the meltagun.

Lordhat wrote:However Hymril, you have NOT proven that range is irrelevent during a DOG. By which I mean that nowhere in DOG does it say to ignore special rules; When firing a meltagun you have to check if the model is within a certain distance (half max range) to determine how many dice to roll for penetration.

Given that you're not allowed to pre-measure randomly and DoG doesn't give you permission to measure anything perhaps you could explain how you plan on doing that?

As I pointed out, you don't actually shoot during a DoG attack.

But you DO resolve the weapon's profile. And certainly you AREN'T going to argue with an opponent about the meaning of the word contact? By definition, Tank Shock is a range of 0". Not hard to determine that 0 is half or less of anything......

Lordhat wrote:Ah, of course the rules don't state what range it is. Tape measures do.

And when exactly in the vehicle's Tank Shock move do you measure? The beginning? The end? Somewhere in between? Where exactly in the vehicle's move do you measure? Provide a page number and rules quote backing up your claims. The rules don't say when you make the measurement, so stop wasting our time saying that they do unless you can provide something to back it up.

So by your reasoning a DOG attack can never take place at all, because the term 'Reached' isn't defined? This is where your arguments are heading.

EDIT: Better yet, the diagram (which we all know in 5th ed have half the relevant rules contained within) Even says "contact". Since GW never defines contact, we don't know where the Tank is relative to the infantry? I would personally lean towards contact meaning "touching", and that by default the range is 0. The truth is, the rules tell us EXACTLY what the relationship of the models are to each other, WHEN the DOG is made; The range is 'Contact'.

Second Edit: Hmm page number for all this? BGB Pg 68.

So since you can't answer my question you decide to make a strawman argument. Once again, where do the rules say where in the vehicle's move that you measure? Page number and rules quote please.