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and you know why? well for starters, as you can see in my blog, my Blood crushers are Chaos Knights on 60MM bases. now, well and good right, i have absolutely NO MODEL to confuse them with, and i ALWAYS use them as blood crushers. Never have i said these were something else.

I use dryads, as horrors, now i make the paint job make it look so, and again, i NEVER use them for ANY other model. They are horrors, never daemonetters, letters or any other troop.

MY DPs are ushabtis, again i never use them for any other model aside from DPs, and they have been modelled with wings, in a 60mm base, heck, i even put some cork board to make em stand 2.5inches just like a regular daemon prince.

And my spawn, note, are used as fiends. and never for any other unit in the codex.

and their reason for not playing me, or delibirating whether i should be in a tourney or not is because "they wont be able to tell what models im using." which is kinda unfair, i chose these guys specifically that they wont be used as any other unit in the codex.

Anyway is this a fair call on their part? or does it have to do that no space marine player, 80% of them are, hasnt beaten me yet.

I think they're being jerks. However, I can also see why they'd be annoyed at playing a "proxy" army. Even if YOU haven't used those minis for anything but those specific purposes, they are minis that have specific other purposes, and it sounds like you're using a mish-mash of less expensive minis to stand in for more expensive ones.

If you were to have a theme that tied all of them together, they'd have less room to criticize.

Also, you could paint what unit they are on the edge of their bases. I know that when I play a proxy army, I keep having to ask my opponent "what was that unit again?" and it gets annoying.

oh yeah i completely understand, and i do have the paint job that ties them together in such a fashion. xept for the spawn as i've hadnt painted them all yet.

and no i really didnt have the cheap route in mind, as i wanted a tzeentchian themed army, and i jsut though the bloodcrushers would be hard pressed into looking that way, so i went for an alternative. I mean fighting daemons, is it honestly hard to tell thse guys on 60mm bases are blood crushers? and i really gave alot of thought into putting this army up, and after seeing that nurgle fantasy army (big flies for screamers and ogres for soemthing else) and gorgon's army, i just thought, why the heck not!

They're being jerks.

I think that dryads look better as daemons than the bloodletters do (and certainly better than the drag-queen daemonettes).

My own Daemon army is proxied like that and I know where you are comming from. Remember most people see proxies as temperary until you get the real models. If you don't you'll seem as if your trying to put together the most powerful army you can for very cheap. A way around this is to buy bits for the model your using and mix them in(Buy bloodletters to ride the horsies I.E). Another way is to do some converting. I used the old tyranid ravagers as my slannesh daemon princes. I converted them up to look like the boob worm that gw releases. You just need to toss in bits to make your army look less random minis and more chaotic.

i like you're idea with the tyranid raveners. oh i do have a batch of blood letters riding the horses. but most players would rather prefer the knights on them. cuz the Bloodletters look awkard on the horses, and its doesnt really tie to my tzeentchian them

Tell them you win moral victories for them being sissy bags.

Dryads as Horrors is a very common proxy. After all, units of Horrors in Fantasy need to be a decent size to get to Lvl2, so I fully understand, agree with and condone the avoidance of the metals in favour of something plastic.

I think your opponent is just being an ass.

Now to be fair. I had a buddy who played MtG and he proxied evrything, it was ok with one or two but after a while it just got annoying as he always proxied the best gold cards and finnaly didnt have one real card in his deck.

As for youur army I had an idea. It's a tzeench army, and he is the master of change so simply add extras to your models. Nothing says change like a two headed horse or one with 4 legs. Or maybe if the horse and rider fuse in some horrible centaur like being. He is the god of change and loves to give out horrible mutations. Maybe you could buy a daemonette head and arms and stick them on some random places on the spawn, A daemonette losing it's looks to Tzeench could make for a cool back story. As for the dryads, There is a cool lil pumpken head conversion on GW. Or, GS some fire on them and now they arn't really attacking as much as trying to throw Tzeench's trademark flames off of thier ever burning wooden flesh. It will make your army less a collection of models and more of a Tzeench "Leigon of the damned".

malfred wrote:Tell them you win moral victories for them being sissy bags.

Translation:
Bading ka ba? Paglaladlad ng kapa.

Screw them; if you were at a tournament and you had converted your models from other Citadel Miniatures then they'd have to play you.

I'm currently in the middle of doing something similar for WHFB:

Plastic Ghouls as Horrors (head left off, with the nub painted as a giant Eye)
Plastic Chaos Warhounds as Flesh Hounds
New Bloodletters on old Juggernauts to do Khorne Heralds

If they don't want to play against you in pickup games then that's their loss.

Thiers no problem with your army at all, i'm sure i've seen some pics of it and probably did think what the Dryads etc were but after reading one of your Batreps it all made sense and the army has a very coherent theme to it, as a couple of people have said possibly a few conversions here and there on the models to make them look less like the stock plastic models would possibly help with distinguishing unit types etc, but really its not needed, hell if your ever in England i'd gladly give you a game with no whinging

On this note of proxy models, my mate fought a guy that was using an Ad Mech army, he was basing off the tyranid book, which is okay as you have seen that done many a time..just look at Migsula's i think it is blog at the moment using mechs as fex's etc etc, but this guy just plonked 6 Penitent engines with no conversion down and said "these are my carnifex's...etc etc" problem was it was all ST which were Genestealers (with no conversion to make them look like Skitarii or combat servitors) and at first glance you would instantly say this was a witchhunters army, the guy was clearly trying to play a Nidzilla list without having to buy anymore models and I had to walk away because it was so clear that was what he was trying to do and he wasn't exactly a nice guy to play against for my mate (it was his first tournament) because of how he played his army and the way it was painted it was clearly all in Witch Hunters colors so he is shooting a BL at a "penitent Engine" expecting it to be blown up only to be reminded its a fex.

So trust us those guys are being £$%^ you may have been finding cheaper alternatives and theirs nothing wrong with that at all, as long as your army has a coherent theme, which clearly it does I can't see a problem at all.

Also @ SExist_Hero: A Horse with 4 legs!?!

Tell them to feth off and go back to playing their umpteenth marine army. I am sure they are marine players.

Thats not a proxy army at all. Thats a converted army. Back before the people you had the disagreement with were born, conversions were the height of the game- a fully converted force.

(EDITED FOR SPELLING LIKE A MONKEY)

Frazzled wrote:Tell them to feth off and go back to playing their umpteenth marine army. I am sure they are marine players.

Thats not a proxy army at all. Thats a converted army. Back before the people you had the disagreenment with, that was the height of the game- a fully converted force.

QFT

thanks for the advice and kind words guys, im definetly gona work on the my chaos knights.

as for that guy, i made them label things (kinda like the where you put your name in your office desk etc) and put the name of each unit there and il just place them beside my units if they get really anal. would this be alright if i did this? or would this be stooping to their level?

It would be perfectly acceptable, but again with the look of your army its not really needed at all

I think what they're really saying is, "I'm afraid that I can't beat this army, because I read on dakka how hideous it is!"

There's a big difference between proxy and conversion. You converted. If you showed up with Cadians to 'count as' Flamers, that's a proxy.

Tell them to go read Page 5 of Warmachine: Prime.

Hellfury wrote:

malfred wrote:Tell them you win moral victories for them being sissy bags.

Translation:
Bading ka ba? Paglaladlad ng kapa.

hahaha! that is so true. ok, thanks for the compliment 99deery, i try to put in effort with my army looks.


Hmm page 5 of war machine prime? not to familiar with warmachine. but the other players here are definitely familiar with it.

dietrich wrote:I think what they're really saying is, "I'm afraid that I can't beat this army, because I read on dakka how hideous it is!"

There's a big difference between proxy and conversion. You converted. If you showed up with Cadians to 'count as' Flamers, that's a proxy.

Tell them to go read Page 5 of Warmachine: Prime.

So if you use cadians as flamers thats bad while using chaos knights as Bloodcrushers its cool?

Kallbrand wrote:So if you use cadians as flamers thats bad while using chaos knights as Bloodcrushers its cool?

It is my understanding (and I have not seen his army) that he is using converted Chaos Knights as Bloodcrushers and has painted them accordingly. If he took chaos knights from him WFB army, put them on a 60mm base with some blue-tac, that would be a proxy.

Proxy is using X in place of Y.

Converting is taking X and making it look something like Y (but not necessarily the official GW model).

Yeah, I dont know either but I do know that I prefer to know what Im facing rather then having to have signs on all the models in the opponents army explaining that they are.

Kallbrand wrote:Yeah, I dont know either but I do know that I prefer to know what Im facing rather then having to have signs on all the models in the opponents army explaining that they are.

ok then il drop the signs. and its not per model it was per squad! haha same difference.

Kallbrand wrote:Yeah, I dont know either but I do know that I prefer to know what Im facing rather then having to have signs on all the models in the opponents army explaining that they are.

In general, I agree with you. At the FLGS, I have a lot more tolerant approach than I would in a tourney. In a tourney (and again, I haven't seen the conversions), if it's Chaos Knights plastered with Khorne Icons and the mounts have some plasticard on them to look kinda crusher-ish, it's a lot harder to complain about.

enmitee wrote:thanks for the advice and kind words guys, im definetly gona work on the my chaos knights.

as for that guy, i made them label things (kinda like the where you put your name in your office desk etc) and put the name of each unit there and il just place them beside my units if they get really anal. would this be alright if i did this? or would this be stooping to their level?

Its not needed, but if you want to be sure you can do this.
*If you are using standard GW bases, write what they are on each base, but if a slightly kewl manner. For instance, for a bloodletter write Bloodletter Amistaal, Flamer Aaron, that sort of thing.

Naming all your guys takes only a slight amount of time, helps identify them to other players, and is both disconcerting and thematic.

Enmnittee do you have pics of these bloodknights? I had a similar idea about using DE Cold Ones.


EDIT: this is a very bad pic of older style converted bloodletters with writing. Might be helpful to see (forgive the horridness of my actual conversions-you'll see why I never post my own stuff on the board)

Conversions like this always come down to quality. Whenever you substitute less-expensive models for expensive ones, people instantly see the benefit to you. They also see the drawback to them, of units being less recognizable.

To overcome this issue, and not engender bad feelings, you need your conversions to be as clear and attractive as possible.

Personally I think the models you’ve mentioned sound like appropriate choices, assuming some conversion work has been done and the paint scheme is there to make it even clearer. But if models aren’t converted, and/or if the paint job isn’t up to snuff (either in quality or in supporting/making the theme clearer), you are going to get some negative reactions.

I think it's this one:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/224073.page

I can't tell because enmitee didn't upload the pics to Dakka.

You definitely don't need to play these jerks, and your army would almost definitely be fine in a tournament (at least a GW one...RTTs you never know, but should be).

That being said...I could imagine, if I had a lot of opponents to choose from or I was looking for a simple friendly game, that I could end up being that jerk. Especially without some labeling on some of the units. The reason for is that you're playing a Tzeentch-themed army, but filling your army with Khorne and Slaanesh units and calling them Tzeentch. I can see how this would get confusing..."ok, the tzeentch painted spawn are slaanesh fiends, and the tzeentch painted knights are Khorne Bloodcrushers...so the ushabti are daemon princes right..." I totally understand wanting to play a powerful army and feeling you can't do that with a tzeentch theme (or the specific type of powerful army you want to play). I like the idea. But I can see how people would find it confusing without some labelling. And I can also see how someone would consider taking a Tzeentch army and jamming 8 bloodcrushers in it and calling them Tzeentch would be...going for overpowered while trying to shoehorn it into a theme. Which I personally have no problem with, I'd rather play strong armies. But not everyone works that way.

Also, how are the ushabti working out for you for DPs? I had considered them for Tzeentch princes but they seemed a little small...I didn't notice any pictures of them next to anything else but I did see you have them up on raised bases.

Everything but the bloodcrushers look fine, they just look like normal chaos knights IMO, but thats just my own pure gut feeling.

Ahh, yeah.. and the galrauch is any greater demon thingy.. thats just the things that will confuse the hell out of me.

Also, Ill add to the group saying that it looks like you are trying to theme a power army so that it will look fluffy, but really.. just say that it is the classic bloodcrusher(if people accep that as crushers) horde and play WAAC.

There is nothing wrong as a "counts as army" In fact GW, and all the other major tournament holders I know of allow army's like this to be played, bases must match actual models base size. and all models should be approx. the same size as real model. Other than that its legal, If you find pictures for last years Hard boys you can find pictures of a genestealer cult army that "counts as" orcs. Not one orc model in the army. Have fun

If you really want an answer to the question "Is it fair" then the answer is a categorical "Yes". A person can choose to play anyone they want to.

If you want an answer to the question "Is this army tournament legal" then the answer is categorically "YES". Personally, I love seeing converted and "Counts As" armies way more than the typical out of the box stuff. I would not mind playing against this army, unless the person fielding it was a jerk. But that has nothing to do with the models or army list.