Sometimes Justice Comes in Small Packages

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**Frazzled**

Sometimes Justice Comes in Small Packages, or

head gets pepper spray TO THE FACE MUAHAHAHAAHA!
My bold-showing a pattern and practice reflecting aforementioned

headedness.

http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=1351216

'Say please' at U. S. border nets pepper spray
Canadian traveller says demand for politeness met with use of force

Matthew Coutts, National Post
Published: Wednesday, March 04, 2009

Dan Janisse/Canwest News Service
A Canadian who demanded courtesy from a U.S. border security guard says he was pepper sprayed and held in custody for three hours for asking the disrespectful officer to "say please" when ordering him to turn his car off during a search.

"I refused to turn off the car until he said please. He didn't. And he has the gun, I guess, so he sprayed me," said Desiderio Fortunato, a Coquitlam, B.C., resident who frequently crosses the border to visit his second home in the state of Washington. "Is that illegal in the United States, asking an officer to be polite?"

The incident occurred on Monday at the Aldergrove border crossing, east of Vancouver, shortly after 12 p.m. Mr. Fortunato, a dance studio director, was travelling to his home in Blaine, Wash., to retrieve a wallet his wife had left during their most recent visit.

He said he was questioned by a border officer who demanded he turn off his car and, when asked to make the request more politely, threatened to spray him with his pepper gun if he did not comply.

"I just felt I should stand my ground about it. I should not be treated like that. No matter what kind of position you are in, if you want respect you have to show respect," he said yesterday. "I asked him three times and when I didn't turn the car off, because he didn't say please, he pepper sprayed me.... It was terrible. For half an hour or so I couldn't see anything."

Mr. Fortunato said after he was sprayed he was forcefully taken into custody by several officers. He was held for three hours before he was released without being allowed entry into the United States. Mr. Fortunato says he was dismissed with a warning to be more cooperative in the future.

A spokesperson for U.S. Customs and Border Protection said officers are trained on how to handle confrontation, and refusal to comply with a direct order is justification to use capsicum spray, also known as pepper spray, or other "soft techniques" such as physical holds.

"The combination of training and experience is what our officers use to communicate with passenger on a day-today basis. Our officers will give direct orders or commands to passengers, especially in situations where there may be a safety concern. It is the obligation of the passenger to be compliant with those," said spokesperson Mike Milne.

He added that officers order border passengers to turn of their vehicles when they want to take somebody from a car and, in such cases, further questioning would be conducted inside the building.

While he could not comment on the specific case, Mr. Milne said the use of force at a border crossing is very rare, very serious and subject to immediate review.

By his own admission, Mr. Fortunato is a stickler for courtesy and respect. The Portuguese native, who has lived in B.C. for 25 years and has owned his second home in Washington for three, pulled a similar stunt at the same border crossing about one year ago. In that case, he was ordered to wait hours to be questioned before being allowed to cross.

Once, he said, he asked a Canadian border agent to be more polite when requesting documents, to which the agent responded with a sheepish "please."
mcoutts@nationalpost.com

**sexiest_hero**

At least he didn't get the night stick probe. When I think about how many times my mom made me say please.... RAAWR!

**Paul Atreides**

I am not sure what I am supposed to say to spark of a discussion on that topic. Thanks for sharing though, it was a fun read...or whatever it was.

**reds8n**

Fortunato, a dance studio director, was travelling to his home in Blaine, Wash., to retrieve a wallet his wife had left during their most recent visit.

Wait....he works in the dance industry and he's not gay ? I call shenanigans! I think the guard sussed something was fishy and acted in the interests of national security.

I was so disappointed to find that this thread wasn't about a crime fighting dwarf. And they deserve a better press.

Wait for it... as... here we go.... statistically 6 out of 7 dwarfs aren't happy.

I thank you ! I'm here all week, try the Salisbury steak.

**sexiest_hero**

That 7th dwarf is a porn star and is very very happy!

**warpcrafter**

Americans polite? What an outrage! When do I get my chance to pepper-spray that Canadian twit!

**Belphegor**

Nice story.
It's almost dangerous to ask an American boarder cop to refrain from being rude.
If forced to do so they might catch on hell-fire, implode or bleed human-headed maggots from their eyes.
In light of those possible outcomes of politeness, the cop was only acting in self-defense.

**LuciusAR**

Wow, I really hope that border security guard gets the book thrown at him.

**Frazzled**

Note: They stated policy, if you're about to be detained they want you to turn your engine off. He was already going to be detained for something else.

Again, trying to correct a security guy is bad bad mojo and he reaped the whirlwind for it. Disobeying the lawful order of cop WILL cause bad things to happen. They are under no requirement to say "please." Idiots shouldn't breed.

**Major Malfunction**

LuciusAR wrote:Wow, I really hope that border security guard gets the book thrown at him.

I hope he gets a medal. Dipstick can't comply with a simple command. Coming into the country is a courtesy, not a right. He's at a BORDER CROSSING, not his dance studio. He can demand courtesy from his 12 year old pre-pubescent students. The only thing he has a right to demand is his ass shown back to Canada.

**Belphegor**

Again, trying to correct a security guy is bad bad mojo and he reaped the whirlwind for it. Disobeying the lawful order of cop WILL cause bad things to happen. They are under no requirement to say "please." Idiots shouldn't breed.

agreed
though I've encounter a couple cops too many that abuse their authority to be thick-meaty-objects and use the fear that creates to skim the law (or break it)
Most decent cops will kindly ask a person to stop being a thick-meaty-object once or twice if they're acting out of line
and no one outside of a service industry is required to say please, sometimes not even then
that's why its courtesy
---
side note, what if the guy was OCD
the harmlessly and lamely mentally ill don't deserve that poop
---
(sub-note: please-boy sounded like a privileged thick-meaty-object, and probably deserved it)

**warpcrafter**

Belphegor wrote:
Again, trying to correct a security guy is bad bad mojo and he reaped the whirlwind for it. Disobeying the lawful order of cop WILL cause bad things to happen. They are under no requirement to say "please." Idiots shouldn't breed.
agreed
though I've encounter a couple cops too many that abuse their authority to be thick-meaty-objects and use the fear that creates to skim the law (or break it)
Most decent cops will kindly ask a person to stop being a thick-meaty-object once or twice if they're acting out of line
and no one outside of a service industry is required to say please, sometimes not even then
that's why its courtesy
---
side note, what if the guy was OCD
the harmlessly and lamely mentally ill don't deserve that poop
---
(sub-note: please-boy sounded like a privileged thick-meaty-object, and probably deserved it)

Wow, you really like talking about thick meaty objects!

**dogma**

The Green Git wrote:The only thing he has a right to demand is his ass shown back to Canada.

Nationalism ftl.

**Belphegor**

warpcrafter: Wow, you really like talking about thick meaty objects!

sometimes I do
Also wanted to meet my hyphen quota today and felt that Richard wouldn't help me get there

**Valhallan42nd**

While I'm fond of politeness, the guy with the gun kinda wins.

**LuciusAR**

The Green Git wrote:
LuciusAR wrote:Wow, I really hope that border security guard gets the book thrown at him.

I hope he gets a medal. Dipstick can't comply with a simple command. Coming into the country is a courtesy, not a right. He's at a BORDER CROSSING, not his dance studio. He can demand courtesy from his 12 year old pre-pubescent students. The only thing he has a right to demand is his ass shown back to Canada.

B.S.

Pepper spray is for use when confronted with a dangerous individual who needs to be disabled. Its not for use in this situation.

Now whether the guy was in the right to ask for the guard to say please is really neither hear nor there. The use of Pepper spray was totally uncalled for. Had this happened in the UK the officer concerned not only would have been booted out of the force but would more than likely face charges for assault.

Sounds to me like the officer was a jumped up little Hitler. I'm actually shocked that people are applauding what is is clearly excessive force.

**Da Boss**

Wow, if that happened in Ireland people would be shocked. The Gardaí are trained to be polite. Would it have killed yer man to say please rather than inflicting a whole crap tonne of pain on the guy, and no doubt racking up a whole lotta paperwork? Seems inefficient when he could have said please. But whatever- I suppose being a policeman in america must be very stressful because of all the violent crime and stuff.

**Belphegor**

I does make me wonder if cops would have to be to be so afraid if they didn't have a reputation for be not-very-nice.
(two more hyphens hopefully justified)

**Da Boss**

I think it's unavoidable though, in some areas. Especially when you have immigrants coming from countries where the police are just another gang- they're never going to fully trust the police. I'd hate to be trying to work out strategies to police in the states, is sounds like a nightmare. Doesn't mean I think what the guy mentioned did was okay though- I think it was obviously overkill.

**IRPurple**

Da Boss wrote:I think it's unavoidable though, in some areas. Especially when you have immigrants coming from countries where the police are just another gang-

hmmm, id like to be in that gang.... payed and its legal to bring the beat-down on other gangs..... sound coushie?

**Major Malfunction**

LuciusAR wrote:Pepper spray is for use when confronted with a dangerous individual who needs to be disabled. Its not for use in this situation.

See... that's where we differ. Pepper spray is for use when non-lethal means of takedown are necessary and was totally useful in this situation. The non-compliant suspect was subdued with no injury to himself or the officer.

Guns are for use when confronted with a dangerous individual who needs to be disabled.

**sebster**

See, there are people that are jerks. They do jerky things like tell a customs guy to say please. They do jerky things like pepper spraying a smug tourist even though he was obviously no threat to anyone.

Sometimes jerks will meet other jerks. They’ll jerk each other around, and the whole story will end up so ridiculous that the story will get told to the world, and we’ll all up hearing the story and saying ‘what is with these jerks, they created such an incident over something so trivial.’

Except of course, sometimes one of these jerks is working for customs, or some other uniformed job. Some folk find it really hard to criticise people once they take on an air of authority. I don’t know why, but it’s a weird phenomenon.

**Cheese Elemental**

The Green Git wrote:
LuciusAR wrote:Pepper spray is for use when confronted with a dangerous individual who needs to be disabled. Its not for use in this situation.

See... that's where we differ. Pepper spray is for use when non-lethal means of takedown are necessary and was totally useful in this situation. The non-compliant suspect was subdued with no injury to himself or the officer.

Guns are for use when confronted with a dangerous individual who needs to be disabled.

What the blue feth is wrong with you? You don't need to use pepper spray on an unarmed, harmless civilian! He didn't NEED to be taken down. The officer could have insisted, or simply used firm language. Brutality like that is just sick, and I can't believe that you're supporting it. He wasn't even doing anything wrong. There is NOTHING wrong with asking someone to say please.

**Zip Napalm**

What the blue feth is wrong with you? You don't need to use pepper spray on an unarmed, harmless civilian! He didn't NEED to be taken down. The officer could have insisted, or simply used firm language. Brutality like that is just sick, and I can't believe that you're supporting it. He wasn't even doing anything wrong. There is NOTHING wrong with asking someone to say please.

Brutality? Getting your teeth knocked out with a nightstick for mouthing off is brutal. Pepper spray? Not so much.

**Lordhat**

dogma wrote:
The Green Git wrote:The only thing he has a right to demand is his ass shown back to Canada.

Nationalism ftl.

Nationalism FTW.

Cheese Elemental wrote:
The Green Git wrote:
LuciusAR wrote:Pepper spray is for use when confronted with a dangerous individual who needs to be disabled. Its not for use in this situation.

See... that's where we differ. Pepper spray is for use when non-lethal means of takedown are necessary and was totally useful in this situation. The non-compliant suspect was subdued with no injury to himself or the officer.

Guns are for use when confronted with a dangerous individual who needs to be disabled.

What the blue feth is wrong with you? You don't need to use pepper spray on an unarmed, harmless civilian! He didn't NEED to be taken down. The officer could have insisted, or simply used firm language. Brutality like that is just sick, and I can't believe that you're supporting it. He wasn't even doing anything wrong. There is NOTHING wrong with asking someone to say please.

Yeah? Well come live in a country whose borders aren't ENTIRELY the ocean, but ironically are as tight as a sieve, which also has a serious problem with such things as human trafficking, drug trafficking, and terrorism (not going to comment on Australia's terrorism problem or lack therof; I don't know anything about it), and then preach about about non-compliant suspects and what they deserve. Pepper spray is exactly what the situation called for. Quick effective neutralization of the suspect, no physical injury sustained by either the officer or the suspect, and three hours later all was dandy. Yes, the officer COULD have said please, but the civilian KNEW what to expect from the border guards.... he owns a house here and this wasn't his first time across. His own fault.

**sebster**

Lordhat wrote:Yeah? Well come live in a country whose borders aren't ENTIRELY the ocean, but ironically are as tight as a sieve, which also has a serious problem with such things as human trafficking, drug trafficking, and terrorism

Human trafficking is an issue here, as it is in every Western country. We have had multiple issues with terrorism, and recently concluded one of the only successful prosecutions of Muslim terrorists (we also concluded another terrorism trial that was rejected due to a comically small amount of evidence).

And yes, our borders our ocean, but we are also have the lowest population density in the world. This means there are a lot of borders to be protected by very few people.

Funnily enough, we manage to get by protecting those borders without pepper spraying people for being smartasses.

(not going to comment on Australia's terrorism problem or lack therof; I don't know anything about it)

How other countries operate their borders would be a very useful piece of knowledge in determining if US border control is as good as can be. Or you know, you could learn nothing and just ‘Nationalism FTW’.

and then preach about about non-compliant suspects and what they deserve. Pepper spray is exactly what the situation called for. Quick effective neutralization of the suspect, no physical injury sustained by either the officer or the suspect, and three hours later all was dandy. Yes, the officer COULD have said please, but the civilian KNEW what to expect from the border guards.... he owns a house here and this wasn't his first time across. His own fault.

Like I said above, put a guy in a uniform and people get weird and start defending them regardless. Traveller was a smartass, the officer had no reason to think the guy was going to do a runner or threaten anyone, but he thought the best course of action was to inflict considerable pain and incapacitate the guy for three hours. It was an epically bad decision.

Everyone accepts this, because some people are jerks and it isn’t always clear who they are until they do something that only a jerk would do. What isn’t acceptable is the willingness to defend a jerk, just because he’s in a uniform.

**ShumaGorath**

Use of force is to be reserved for situations that warrant it. Backtalk does not warrant use of force. Be as nationalist as you want, it was a waste of resources to detain someone for asking the officer to be "polite". I don't care what kind of machismo idiocy people have about talking back to officers, you use force where force is needed.

Not where it is amusing.

**Lordhat**

Well let me state, as I forgot to earlier, I'm not defending the guy because he's in a uniform. I'm pretty anti-police force by nature, but the fact of the matter is, if you're going to come to our country and mouth off to the people in authority, especially when being inspected for entry feel lucky all you get is pepper spray. 6 months ago, they guy would have been just as likely to end up in guantanamo bay under the 'patriot act'.

Maybe down under pepper spray would be considered excessive, but here, a situation like this is EXACTLY why the gestapo, I mean police force, is given CS gas. Same with tasers: IMMEDIATE non-injurious compliance.

Dude was told 3 times to shut off his engine. That's enough to determine that the person will NOT comply. Yes the officer could have said please, but the fact of the matter is, when dealing with a non-compliant suspect (which after saying 'no' the man is DEFINITELY a suspect) authority has to be maintained, which means the suspect does what the officer says, and not vice versa.

If you come to my house for a party, and I don't know you, and you refuse three times in a row when I ask you to empty your pockets so I can check for weapons or drugs, I would definitely pepperspray you, and then have you escorted off my property. Not because you deserved it for asking me to say please, but because you failed to obey the rules of my house while here. This is much the same thing.

Politeness is a very nice thing in life and helps things go smoothly, but when you have to insist upon it, you have just made it null and void. Insisting on politeness from somebody over and over, before you will have a normal discourse with them is just as rude as insisting on being the biggest prick you can.

**jp400**

Lets see if I get this right......

Guard told him to turn off his vehicle.... which they will only do when the vehicle is going to be detained for some reason. This is done in regards to the guards saftey.

Driver didnt comply with the command and asked for him to say please.

Guard told him again to shut down his vehicle or he would be forced to use the Cs Spray.

Driver Refused....

Guard Sprayed....

Call me crazy but it soulds like the idiot was basically asking to be sprayed. Had he just turned off the vehicle then said.. "By the way, Would you mind saying please next time? Its better PR that way" He wouldnt have been sprayed.

Lets look at this in another way shall we?

It OP states that we was heading back into the states to pick up a Wallet that was left behind. Now if lets say his ID was in that wallet, and he was trying to cross the boarder, that would explain why he was being stopped in the first place.

Plus as stated before, all a Visa (ect ect) does is let you come up to the boarder and knock. The powers that be dont have to let you in.

I feel that he acted according to protocall. I mean, seriously its not hard to do what your told when crossing the line. I cross back and forth into Canada all the time and have never had a problem with the guards.

**sebster**

Lordhat wrote:Well let me state, as I forgot to earlier, I'm not defending the guy because he's in a uniform. I'm pretty anti-police force by nature, but the fact of the matter is, if you're going to come to our country and mouth off to the people in authority, especially when being inspected for entry feel lucky all you get is pepper spray. 6 months ago, they guy would have been just as likely to end up in guantanamo bay under the 'patriot act'.

Ah no, no-one was sent to Guantanamo for being annoying while waiting at customs. There were some messed up cases, but nothing that ridiculous.

And so it isn't about uniforms in your case. It's about the fact that it's your country and you'll be dumb if you want to be?

And yeah, there’s authority to maintain. If a guy doesn’t comply, you order him out of his car, sit him in a waiting room for two hours while you search his car. But pepper spray?

Maybe down under pepper spray would be considered excessive, but here, a situation like this is EXACTLY why the gestapo, I mean police force, is given CS gas. Same with tasers: IMMEDIATE non-injurious compliance.

It’s considered excessive because it is excessive. It is used to bring a physical situation under control. The guy was sitting in his car being a smartass, there was no threat to control. By spraying the driver you increase the chaos of the situation, create the likelihood of something happening.

If you come to my house for a party, and I don't know you, and you refuse three times in a row when I ask you to empty your pockets so I can check for weapons or drugs, I would definitely pepperspray you, and then have you escorted off my property. Not because you deserved it for asking me to say please, but because you failed to obey the rules of my house while here. This is much the same thing.

You may possibly be the worst host ever. I mean, I’ve been to some crap parties in my time, but no-one ever demanded I empty out my pockets, or pepper-sprayed me.

Politeness is a very nice thing in life and helps things go smoothly, but when you have to insist upon it, you have just made it null and void. Insisting on politeness from somebody over and over, before you will have a normal discourse with them is just as rude as insisting on being the biggest prick you can.

Politeness is neither here nor there. We can get by being rude, as long as we keep perspective and use proper judgement. Sitting at a customs checkpoint insisting the officer say please, that’s a serious lack of perspective, and a terrible judgement call. Pepperspraying a guy for sitting there, demanding a ‘please’, that’s also a serious lack of perspective and a terrible judgement call.