Doubles Apoc Game Tactics?

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**Eight Ball**

Okay, so here's the story:
The local GW is hosting a Doubles Tournament. It is 1500pts per player (3000 per side obviously), using Apoc (and Apoc:Reload) rules/vehicles, and each player is allowed ONE strategic asset.

My friend that I am playing with has already asked for some army list help (http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/232530.page), but we also need some tactics help. Neither of us have played Apoc yet (although we plan to practice a LOT of it), so we were wondering if anyone had some ideas to deal with some stuff...

For example, SuperHeavies: From what we have seen, there are AT LEAST:
-2 Ork Flyers (different players own each)
-1 Ork Super-Mech-Vehicle (can't remember the name)
-2 Baneblades

So we were wondering about what we should be doing, especially if we go against 1+ SuperHeavy....we are playing the Space Marines and Necrons, and I will be bringing a Pylon to the Tournament for sure, but does anyone have some general thoughts as to how we should be planning our strategy around Apoc (and 3,000pts per side)?

**Fafnir**

Well, I've never played apocalypse, but I've played a 3 on 3 that went well beyond 4000 points per side.

What I learned was:

Don't deepstrike non-suicide units unless you absolutely have to. Not being able to charge after deepstriking makes it incredibly easy to be overwhelmed by the combined forces of an enemy.

Use an ally's cheaper infantry as a wall. Or, if you have the cheap infantry, use yours as the wall.

**Eight Ball**

Yeah, the only thing I might think about Deep Striking would be the Pylon, but that would depend on who we're going against

About the "wall"....playing as Necrons and Space Marines, we don't really have any super cheap infantry, and we only have 1,500 pts per side, so I really don't want to waste much..

**Zoot**

I'm curious about this too, super-heavy vehicles are in my opinion absolutely broken despite their high points cost but then again I don't really know any of their faults to exploit if they have any. I'd imagine the baneblade would be devastating against necrons since they're infantry focused. I'm not sure if baneblades allow cover saves but if you can be sure to keep in cover and have a lord around with a resurrection orb, and keep your squads apart because of the ridiculous blast radius. However units in close combat against imperial guard won't be able to be shot at so perhaps using flayed ones to infiltrate and attack enemy guardsmen in cover could work well. Obvious advice of course

**GCMandrake**

From my experience of Apocalypse (over 20 games now), the following are a few tips:

1. Mobility is key. The board is big, and depending on the size of the tables, it may take a long time for a unit to foot slog it over. Transports are necessary.
2. Static shooty units are not fantastic. 48" may be fine in regular 40k, but that range is going to leave your expensive devastators or whatever sitting around doing nothing.
3. Flank March is broken as all hell. If you want a fun game, ban it.
4. We frequently run into time issues, limiting the number of turns to 4 or even 3. You shouldn't have a problem though, but each unit should be doing something useful every turn. Think very carefully before putting something in reserve - a turn in reserve is a turn not shooting.
5. Super Heavies are very very good for the points.
6. D-Weapons are very very good at killing things. A friend has an Eldar Scorpion - twin linked 2-shot 5" blast D-weapon. It used to murder all the enemy tanks on the table until we became highly proficient at keeping it stunned and unable to fire.
7. Best way to deal with super heavies is a ton of terminators in close combat. Chainfists + Always hitting the rear armour = very short life expectancy for whatever they're killing. How you get them there is another problem entirely.
8. If you can take formations that allow bonus assets, they're usually good deals. Masters of the Chapter is good for this.
9. Baneblades are pretty much the most efficient general killing machines there are.
10. Flyers are annoying. If you do shoot at them, shoot with weapons that have many shots. Autocannons are generally fairly good. And remember that pintle-mounted weapons are automatically AA-mounts.
11. Remember the objectives. Make sure you're clear on what's scoring and what isn't, as with 5th ed 40k, it isn't well defined. We have troops + superheavies as scoring, but check before hand.
12. When in doubt, orbital bombardments are consistently useful.
13. On a related note, Damocles rhinos are broken as all hell. Take more than one, and expect to be hated.

**Eight Ball**

Aight, thanks for the help...but I did have a question (remember that we have never played apoc before)

Are there any rules changes to stuff like game types, deployment, or anything else important (haven't gotten around to reading much of the apoc books)?

**Platuan4th**

Eight Ball wrote:Aight, thanks for the help...but I did have a question (remember that we have never played apoc before)

Are there any rules changes to stuff like game types, deployment, or anything else important (haven't gotten around to reading much of the apoc books)?

Deployment works thus(if there aren't special scenarios that dictate differently):

1. Someone rolls a Scatter Die.
2. A line is drawn to whatever table edge the arrow is pointing to marking the point where the arrow is pointing.
3. From that point, you draw a line between that point and the farthest point possible on the other side of the table(generally the farthest corner).
4. You then mark 6" to either side of this line(this marks the 2 deployment zones), giving you a 12" no man's land.
5. Roll to see who picks what Deployment zone(note, these can be extremely disproportionate areas).
6. Pick Assets.
7. Bid on how long it will take for your side to deploy(1-30 minutes). Whoever bids lowest sets up first but also goes first. Before each sides deployment, they have 5 minutes to discuss deployment(unless someone played Jammers).
8. Each side takes turns placing 3 Objectives: 1 each in one deployment zone, 1 each in the other deployment zone, and 1 each in No Man's Land(there will be 2 in each deployment zone and 2 in NML).

Other things to note: You do NOT roll for Reserves. On turn 2, you may bring in up to half(rounding up) of the amount of units available to you. Turn 3 ALL reserves come in.
There are NO Force Organization Charts. You bring whatever you want to bring.
Strength D is king. It doesn't care about the hole on the Template for Vehicles, adds +1 to Pen Rolls(it auto-pens), and it auto-wounds. If you have access to any Strength D, BRING IT!

**GreatEscape_13**

If you're brave enough to drop the pylon, Hammer Blow might be a great strategic asset to replace it with. Hammer Blow is phenomenal in leveling the playing field (i.e. when you're facing groups with 2+ superheavies). Just get rid of any void shields/power fields/etc. with shooting then unleash it. If your side has no supers, then it's all foes.

If you stick with the Pylon (which is very, very powerful), be sure to take advantage of the fact that it will draw "heavy" fire. This should help your forces since both dislike any low AP values that tend to go with the heavy sorts of weapons.

Cheers.

**Eight Ball**

yeah, thanks....but GreatEscape:

What's stopping me (and/or my partner) from taking the Pylon AND Hammer Blow?

Also, I am prepared for the to-be fire against the pylon, luckily it has living metal, so at least no extra d6 for penetration....also, AS LONG as it can take out like 1 superheavy (which it easily can with it's Gauss Annihilator [Range 120" Strength D AP Heavy 3]) then I will be happy...

**Nenya97**

quick question... what if a necron player plays with no units counting towards phase out... do they auto lose?

That is something you might want to think about as well, having only 1500 to spend on units.

**Eight Ball**

Nenya:
LOL, me and my friend were JUST discussing this earlier, and we decided that we would just ask the GW employees running the tournament to decided....that said, a No Necron Necron list is limited to: Pylons, Monoliths, Tomb Spiders, Scarabs, Pariahs, and C'Tans....so I don't think it's worth it

**wilsmire**

I dont know I think that Pylons, Monoliths, Tomb Spiders, Scarabs, Pariahs, and C'Tans with flank march could be very very bad for the other players.

**Steelmage99**

Your store is hosting an Apocalypse tournament?

An........Apocalypse......tournament?

Epic fail. Pure and simple.

**Eight Ball**

So, explain to me, master of tournaments, what's wrong with an Apoc Tournament?

**Steelmage99**

Try reading the foreword in the Apoc book.

**Dronze**

Aside from the time constraints, if you were to make it a league-like series of games, you could feasibly make it work...

Actually, at 3000 points, you could probably get a smaller field narrowed in a month, provided you're playing at your FLGS and they've got the space for it, and players who are willing to give up their weekends to play...

**Eight Ball**

Yeah, well I don't know what to say: At our GW, they're hosting a tournament, and APPARENTLY they're going to go through with it, so obviously they have thought it through...

But anyways, yeah, we got one month from like tomorrow to prepare...

**Eight Ball**

Well, if anyone still wants to contribute to any help, I got some more info:

-There will be 6 teams max, and each team will play 3 games, 2 on one day, 1 on next day (not sure how this will work..? Hall of Heroes or something like that name, what does that mean?)
-Assets not allowed: Jammers and Flank March

And so far the current signed up teams are:
-Space Marines and Chaos Marines
-Orks and Imperial Guard
-Us

So the main thing I wanted to ask now was what is "Hall of Heroes" (think that's the name)?

**Shep**

I can help. I play a stupid amount of apocalypse.

One question and this is massively important....

What rules are they going to use for scoring units?

Will it be pure 5th ed scoring rules? (i.e. can only troops score but all units can contest, do you use the apoc points cost add-up to break a conteted objective? Can you use hold at all costs to make vehicles scoring?)

will it be a 5th/apoc amalgam (troops only scoring troops only contesting add up points cost to break open ties)

will it be old school scoring?

Ok, I'm going to assume it'll be option A.

Strength D is very very good. Necron pylons are very very good. unless you have 4 or more monoliths dont bother with their datasheet, the best part of the datasheet gets broken after a single monolith dies, and with strength D, that can basicaly happen instantaneously.

take the datasheet that gives your warriors a res orb/4+ invulenerable save from a pylon. You could keep them back in your deployment on top of an asset and take vital objective. invulnerable saves for necrons trump cover big time in apocalypse, there will be a lot of strength D blasts, and they ignore cover. You can also hold a bit better in CC against thinned out assault units, enough time to stay scoring in the short apoc games.

Leave the units at home unless you flank march tomb spyders, ctan, flayed ones, pariahs

multiple veils are good with immortals

are they going to enforce phase out? If so, at 1500 points you are pretty locked in.

no book handy so my approximate suggestion would be...

pylon
3x10 warriors
pylon/warrior datasheet
2x3 heavy destroyers

vital objective

Just use the heavy Ds and the pylon to pick apart super heavies and vehicles, and deploy the warriors in a way that can't be multi-charged (or at least not easily)

Place your deployment zone objective on them, mark it vital, and hope that your teammate can put pressure on no-man's land. Your warriors won't be killable from range (even from strength D, 4+ invuln + res orb = unkillable) while your pylon is alive. Use the pylon and the heavy D's to kill things that can kill the pylon, if you are facing an assault army, have you opponent help screen you for a bit.

And watch those table edges, don't deploy the datasheet within 12" of the table edges if you can help it.

**Eight Ball**

Okay, I'll go through this:

Shep wrote:
What rules are they going to use for scoring units?

Just regular 5th ed, as in only Troops can Score, anyone can contest.

Shep wrote:
take the datasheet that gives your warriors a res orb/4+ invulenerable save from a pylon.

Which one is this???

Shep wrote:
Leave the units at home unless you flank march tomb spyders, ctan, flayed ones, pariahs

Flank March isn't allowed, but I MIGHT take a tomb spider to make sure I get those WBBs

Shep wrote:
are they going to enforce phase out? If so, at 1500 points you are pretty locked in.

From my talking to the GW employees, it looks like they will.

Shep wrote:
pylon/warrior datasheet

Again, which one is this?

Also, what do you recommend for options for a Lord? Obviously Res Orb, but anything else I should take, or just save the points?

**Shep**

Eight Ball wrote:

Shep wrote:
take the datasheet that gives your warriors a res orb/4+ invulenerable save from a pylon.
Which one is this???

Also, what do you recommend for options for a Lord? Obviously Res Orb, but anything else I should take, or just save the points?

I'd save the points on the lord. I guess that pylon datasheet must have been in imperial armor apocalypse if you haven't been able to find it. I'll take a look when i get home.