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I just started up a Chaos army, and have finally gotten it up to a playable size. Now this is in no way meant to be a 'power player' army. I just wanted a fun, fluffy game-able army.

So here goes, tell me what y'all think.

HQ
* Kharn the Betrayer

* Termie lord W/ MoN and Lightning Claw pair

Elites
* 5 Nurgle Termies
- 2 champs w/ PF
-3 regular termies w/ PW

* 5 Chosen ( kharn might go here)
- 2 w/ PF
- 1 w/ PW
- 1 w/ PW and IoK
- 1 w/ melta
-Mounted in Rhino

Troops
*9 Zerkers in rhino ( Kharn might go here)

* 10 CSM w/ IoN, 2 plasmaguns
-Champ w/ PF and Plaspistol

* 10 CSM w/ IoK, 2 meltaguns
-Champ w/ PW

Fast Attack
*5 Raptors w/ meltagun ( colours, but secretly undivided)
-Champ w/ PF and Plaspistol

Heavy Support
*5 Havocs w/ 4 Heavy Bolters ( colours, but secretly undivided)
* Pred with all LasCannons (same as havocs)

Thats all for about 2k points. Whatcha'll think about it?

I would recommend removing the Plasma Pistol from your Raptor champion and putting another melta in the unit. Since you're not giving up your bolt pistol for the melta, you're basically paying two thirds of the cost for a much better weapon. Same range, higher strength, better AP, doesn't overheat (and as such, won't kill your PW champ right when you need it the most). The only upside to the plasma is the ability to fire twice if you stand still.

5th edition you can't even fire the pistol twice.

You might want to consider either removing the mark of Khorne and nurgle o the csm ... For instance 10 CSM with Icon of nurgle is only 30 points cheaper than actual plague marines. Plus plague marines would be able to fire the two plasmas on the go. (they would also be slow and purposeful, but thats a small price). In my experience leave all the marks except IoCG at home. They are too expensive unless you are talking about a squad of 20 or somehting that really alters the unit(like Slaanesh on LC terminators .. makes a big difference vs other MEQ).

Also I think your chosen squad could use the points to gain a few members. Right now every kill is a premium points and utility loss.

Also, just from general experience, Your killy characters should usually hitch a ride with nurgle units like Plague marines. Khorne units tend to do well enough on their own, but the green marines need a little boost in killing power. Abadabadingdong or Kharn really make a plague marine unit fearsome.

Other than those mostly minor efficiency issues your list is pretty balanced for fun games.

Meph

I would replace the IoN CSM with real Plague Marines. The cost difference is negligible, and you will get alot more out of the plague marines than the regular CSM. As for the IoK CSM, I would drop the Icon completely, or just replace it with an IoCG. Standard CSm are best used for shooting, not assault, especially if you have some berzerkers already. Adding in the IoK is 30 points that you should be avoiding any need for. Additionally, I agree that you would be best off dropping the PLasma Pistol form your raptors in favor of a melta. It is better in every way.

Personally, I would also combine the two terminator squads and just carry around one big terminator unit. That way, your other 3 terminators all benefit from the IoN without having to pay any more points, and the squad will be scary as hell.

Both of you are missing the +1 attack for having pistol, but that doesn't mean much in the long run. CSM are fine for assault, but IoK hasn't been worth it for me in the past. Drop the points to make sure each squad has a PF. IoN really only works out to be benifical (compared to lPaguemarines) if you have 15+ CSM in a squad, but it can be fun if that's all you're going for.

The Raptor AC already has a bolt pistol. He still has +1 attack.

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:Both of you are missing the +1 attack for having pistol, but that doesn't mean much in the long run. CSM are fine for assault, but IoK hasn't been worth it for me in the past. Drop the points to make sure each squad has a PF. IoN really only works out to be benifical (compared to lPaguemarines) if you have 15+ CSM in a squad, but it can be fun if that's all you're going for.

Yeah ... it was early when I typed that and the point I was trying to make is either go no icon CSM for cheap bodies with many attacks and use the saved points for more bodies/upgrades like CTM suggests, or go cult marines all the way for their special rules. I run about 3 squads of 8 CSM with only IoCG, MG, and AC with PF in about every list because of the # attacks. BTW to address the point above that CSM are made for shooting : CSM really are assault squads, if you are sitting back and shooting with them then you are missing out on the goodness that is 9 pistol shots, 1 mg, and 27 regualr attacks + 3 Pf attacks that come frome a squad of 10 CSM in an assault.

Meph

Perhaps it's just a personal preference, but I think that if you are going to be assaulting, the CSM pales in comparison to a Berzerker. Of course, the trade-off is the versatility of a CSM, but if that is what you are going for, then the IoCG, rather than IoK, is a better choice.

fatal_GRACE wrote:Perhaps it's just a personal preference, but I think that if you are going to be assaulting, the CSM pales in comparison to a Berzerker. Of course, the trade-off is the versatility of a CSM, but if that is what you are going for, then the IoCG, rather than IoK, is a better choice.

At the basic level this is true. However versatility and anti armor come into play. You occasionally don't want an almost 300 point squad of zerkers sitting around on an objective for the last few turns of a game. Taking CSM squads for aprox 200-215 points(I never run them at full size because at that level they really are almost the same price as cult marines. My favorite numbers are 7 and 8, just enough to get the job done, but comes in cheaper than a cult squad by about 50 - 70 points). I usually run 2-3 basic CSMs supported by Noise marines and zerkers, or 2 squads of zerkers. Thats plenty of killy power, plus the regular marines can act as decoys, living shields for things like stealers etc., pop enemy armor so the zerkers have something to charge, etc. The combo has worked pretty well for me. Though to be honest I have never run only cult marines in the new dex, so my comparisons are mostly based off perusing other peoples lists. I used to be pure emperors children, but alas even with lash the true glory of slaanesh has faded ... my poor daemonettes have not hit the tabel in quite a while...)

The basic CSM puts out a good amount of attacks and come in fairly cheap. By fielding CSM I can put more power armored models on the table and I usually run about 40+ CSM and cult troops(plus their rhinos) even at 1500, plus two DP. You generally have more bodies than an all cult force and don't have to get your meltas and anti tank from oblits and other places.

Meph

fatal_GRACE wrote:
Personally, I would also combine the two terminator squads and just carry around one big terminator unit. That way, your other 3 terminators all benefit from the IoN without having to pay any more points, and the squad will be scary as hell.

I guess i just wrote this one poorly, but they are all in the same squad: 2 PF Champs and 3 PW dudes.

Magellan wrote:
Same range, higher strength, better AP, doesn't overheat (and as such, won't kill your PW champ right when you need it the most.

Yeah i guess that makes since. hurm.

How does this sound then?

HQ
* Kharn the Betrayer

* Termie lord W/ MoN and Lightning Claw pair

Elites
* 5 Nurgle Termies (includes ALL the following)
- 2 champs w/ PF
-1 regular termie w/ PW and Reaper Autocannon
-2 regular termies w/ PW

10 Chosen ( Still IoK for infiltrating choppy goodness and Deep Strike beacon for termies, but added ablative sheilding.)
- 2 w/ PF
- 1 w/ PW
- 1 w/ PW and IoK
- 1 w/ melta
- 5 w/ bolter/ BP and CCW

Troops
*9 Zerkers in rhino

* 10 CSM w/ 2 plasmaguns
-Champ w/ PF and Plaspistol

*10 CSM w/ 2 meltaguns
-Champ w/ PF

Fast Attack
*5 Raptors w/ 2 meltagun ( Droped the Plas pistol for another melta)
-Champ w/ PF

Heavy Support (same as last list.)
*5 Havocs w/ 4 Heavy Bolters
* Pred with all LasCannons

So basically i added another 5 chosen to guard the PW and PF guys, Droped the icons and added a melta gun and PF

Mesphistoles1 wrote: Your killy characters should usually hitch a ride with nurgle units like Plague marines. Khorne units tend to do well enough on their own, but the green marines need a little boost in killing power. Abadabadingdong or Kharn really make a plague marine unit fearsome.

As for this, while it makes tactical sense, i really dont like it fluff wise, Abbadabadabadabadingdong would make sense, him being all Chosen of the gods and all, but Kharn? Sounds iffy to me.

Think i should loose some of the chosen shielding for a rhino for the melta Marines?

Looking better. I would still consider rhinos for both csm squads, but with the changes you made you should do fairly well and from here I think the changes or non changes should be based on your playstyle and what you think is fun. So you might want to try it the way it is a few times, and then try it with fewer chosen and more rhinos a few times.
5th edtion marines need to be mech. to be effective IMO. Which is funny because you could not force me at gunpoint to take even a rhino in the last dex. I think you did enough though that even if those two squads are on foot you should still do fine if thats the way you like to play.

Oh and have kharne ride wherever. (I was rambling general advice at that point). Tactically and fluff aside killy characters go with non killy but tough units. My buddy ran Abadabdindong with zerkers and he killed so much the zerkers never got to play, whereas the plage marine units struggled to kill any models at all.


Meph

Mephistoles1 wrote:

fatal_GRACE wrote:Perhaps it's just a personal preference, but I think that if you are going to be assaulting, the CSM pales in comparison to a Berzerker. Of course, the trade-off is the versatility of a CSM, but if that is what you are going for, then the IoCG, rather than IoK, is a better choice.

At the basic level this is true. However versatility and anti armor come into play. You occasionally don't want an almost 300 point squad of zerkers sitting around on an objective for the last few turns of a game. Taking CSM squads for aprox 200-215 points(I never run them at full size because at that level they really are almost the same price as cult marines. My favorite numbers are 7 and 8, just enough to get the job done, but comes in cheaper than a cult squad by about 50 - 70 points). I usually run 2-3 basic CSMs supported by Noise marines and zerkers, or 2 squads of zerkers. Thats plenty of killy power, plus the regular marines can act as decoys, living shields for things like stealers etc., pop enemy armor so the zerkers have something to charge, etc. The combo has worked pretty well for me. Though to be honest I have never run only cult marines in the new dex, so my comparisons are mostly based off perusing other peoples lists. I used to be pure emperors children, but alas even with lash the true glory of slaanesh has faded ... my poor daemonettes have not hit the tabel in quite a while...)

The basic CSM puts out a good amount of attacks and come in fairly cheap. By fielding CSM I can put more power armored models on the table and I usually run about 40+ CSM and cult troops(plus their rhinos) even at 1500, plus two DP. You generally have more bodies than an all cult force and don't have to get your meltas and anti tank from oblits and other places.

Meph

I didn't mean to say that the CSM are a poor choice, far from it. What I meant was that putting an IoK on them wasn't necessarily the best way to go, as he already has combat specialists in the army.

With that said, George, you are looking alot better with that revised list. I am against such unfluffy things as putting Kharn with Plague Marines as well, but if you do, you could always say he was going for a wider variety of skulls when he rolls ones.

You could get a basic rhino for the price of two of those Chosen, so I think it would be a good idea. The speed and protection offered by a rhino easily outbalance the value of two 'spare marines'. You also may want to be careful with that Predator. The Lascannons look great, but it's not as effective as you might think, and they are relatively fragile, especially on their side and back armor. For the same points, you could get a couple oblits instead, which are much more versatile, and are easier to hide in cover without losing TLOS.