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With the current trend of keeping old codex legal until they're replaced (Dark Eldar and Space Wolfs are now gearing up for their 10th anniverseries) it is very, very hard for GW to change basic stats for some armies. For the units that only show up in one codex it's fine, but for things like Storm Troopers (3 codex), Marines (6 including the Chaos codex) it really mucks things up.

Plus you get nerd rage from the Intarwebs.

But if you could...

What stats would you change?
Keep it to 10.

1. Marines are T5, S5 and cost about 5 points more.
2. Chain weapons add +1 to strength. It just annoys me that they're just cosmetic. Obviously this affects points.
3. Grenades can be thrown 6" but stop you from charging. Another one that's bugged me since 3rd edition.
4. Orks are S4. I mean come on, look at them.
5. Lemans Russ are 13/12/10, they should be cheap and cheerful, not the strongest armor in the galaxy. Price goes down of course.
6. Chimeras 11/11/10, same rationale. price also goes down.
7. Rhinos should be 12/11/10, cause marines should have better gear than the guard. price goes up.
8. Heavy stubbers should be assault 3, 24" and be special weapons for marines and guard.
9. Assault cannons should be Assault 5, 24", S4, AP3. they're for mowing down infantry not tank hunting.
10. Marines can move and fire heavy weapons. Again, points change.

Eldar vehicle pilots at BS4. Come on, guys, most advanced tech in the galaxy and they can't even get some targeting assistance on there? Even if I have to pay 10 points for a vehicle upgrade, it'd be worth it.

I'd like to see some of the stat-inflation checked. I still think of 33331317(5+) as being a baseline standard trooper for the game. Any increase on that is superhuman by nature or design, or at least a result of long training and/or massive experience. I believe the much playing of MEQ-armies have moved peoples expectations towards the 44441418(3+) standard, so anything less seems weak. I do understand that superlatives and high numerical values sell more models though. Hence the IGs focus on cool tanks, rather than the decently trained, disciplined and equipped men and women that fight and die for the emperor. Even though their lives are so very glorious, powerful and valuable compared to the average imperial citicen, or indeed the average tau, eldar, chaos renegade farmer etc.

So I really like it that orks are S3 (and have furious charge). I like it that regular eldar and tau that take up weapons are Bs 3, because it means they are professionally trained soldiers. But I can agree that targeters would be reasonable for the guncrews on hightech tanks.

I want the marines to feel truly epic, but not by increasing their stats, but rather by getting a "reality"-check on all the other units in the game. In all honesty though, I think it will take a while (5 years, maybe 10) but marines will get S5 T5 and all eldar and tau will get bs4. Points cost will hardly go up. Lower points costs means people will have to buy more models to fill their armies. As a comparision: I lost about 10-15% of the points value of my space marine army with the last codex.

Hmm, you're a bit off. April Fool's Day isn't for another 15 or 16 days.

Vladsimpaler wrote:Hmm, you're a bit off. April Fool's Day isn't for another 15 or 16 days.

lmao that was good.
I agree FLUFFWISE SM stats should be 5 or higher. BUT!!! if that happens then there has to be ALOT less of them. Orks are badasses in CC and they LOVE to brawl and love to fighter a SM. Now if the stats went up that much, they would get their heads kicked in everytime all the time. Personally I think the stats right now are pretty decent with a few exceptions. I agree tau and eldar should get somethings that up the BS. Not for every troop but big guns and whatnot. First time I saw tau base stat lines I laughed. Simply because they were pumped up to be this awesome shooty army, and they really arnt that awesome at shooting lol.

Yeah. I'd like to see Tau get a slight buff in a few areas. It's pretty sad that most Tau players try to take as few firewarriors as possible and then hide the ones they are forced to take in transports all game.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:
4. Orks are S4. I mean come on, look at them.

Yeah, but it's more a D&D effective strength sort of thing. Sure your average ork LOOKS like he could pull the arms off a wookie, but then he attempts to kill you with a giant blunt axe, or beat you to death with the barrel of his shoota....

I'd like to see some targeters back in the game. Marine devs, Tau Warriors, Orks Flash Gitz, Eldar tankers, +1 BS. Sci-Fi is supposed to be about shooting stuff, not beating it to death with a giant axe. Probably never happen because 1 or 2 stat lines per 'dex is MUCH simplier.

Targeters is nice. Might help balance down the utility of cover. Even though a straight +1BS is a bit boring and does not really give any more tactical variants. I think.

How about some similar ideas by tired brain cooks up: Any troop or elite choice may buy these upgrades for their rapid fire, pistol and assault armaments:
5p Red dot laser sight: Forces your target to reroll successfull coversaves.
3p Full metal Jacket ammunition: If your target has cover due to intervening models. He must reroll successful coversaves.
3p Motion tracker: If your target squad moved last turn, they must reroll successfull coversaves.

What do you think?

As a side note: Marines had T3 in first edition 40k. There is inflation here.

Kroot to I4. FW's need a better way to compensate with their BS 3 skills for a shooty army. Make stealth suits, marker drones and fire warriors cheaper (lets face it, fire warriors are costly for what they are) Up the range of 1/2 the tau armory (I mean come on. Why the hell would you want to approch enemies that could quickly close in the gap in no time. Burst cannons and fusion blasters are a example, being 18" and 12" respectfuly) and more anti-CC options

Mellon wrote:Targeters is nice. Might help balance down the utility of cover. Even though a straight +1BS is a bit boring and does not really give any more tactical variants. I think.

How about some similar ideas by tired brain cooks up: Any troop or elite choice may buy these upgrades for their rapid fire, pistol and assault armaments:
5p Red dot laser sight: Forces your target to reroll successfull coversaves.
3p Full metal Jacket ammunition: If your target has cover due to intervening models. He must reroll successful coversaves.
3p Motion tracker: If your target squad moved last turn, they must reroll successfull coversaves.

What do you think?

As a side note: Marines had T3 in first edition 40k. There is inflation here.

Over the course of the game that adds up to a lot of extra rolling and hence time.


Tops on my lists would be giving the Shuriken Catapult better than a 12" range.

Seriously, the best tech in the galaxy, yet the Eldar's basic weapon has less range than a blow dart?

Also a points reduction - it's pointless to pay for Fleet on a unit you'd never want in melee against anything besides Fire Warriors or Gretchin.

Tops on my lists would be giving the Shuriken Catapult better than a 12" range.

Seriously, the best tech in the galaxy, yet the Eldar's basic weapon has less range than a blow dart?

Also a points reduction - it's pointless to pay for Fleet on a unit you'd never want in melee against anything besides Fire Warriors or Gretchin.

I agree on this one, but guardians should stay a relatively non-threatening force in general IMO. A well-equipped citizen levy but nothing more.

I'd also like to see chain weapons have some rules added to them... +1 strength sounds good, maybe just on the charge.

Assault cannon... more shots, lower strength (as mentioned above).

Can't think of 10 so these will have to do!

Kid_Kyoto wrote:
9. Assault cannons should be Assault 5, 24", S4, AP3. they're for mowing down infantry not tank hunting.

you obviously never played 2nd edition

assault cannons need to be STR 8 with 9 possible shots again

have horde opponents? bring lots of assault cannons to plow them down, have mech opponents? bring lots of assault cannons to tear them apart, then plow down the guys inside. space puppies could make a list with 20 terminators, all independant characters, each with an assault cannon

seriously though, if its S4 without rending it needs more than assault 5 imo, at least assault 8 at that point

1. Marneus Calgars base Strenght to 5. Really. He is the greatest of all Space Marines alive, he is over 1000 years old (if I remember right) and yet he is weaker than Nob on charge? Really, come on.
2. Chaplain Cassius points. He is only 25 points more expensive than normal Chaplain, but look at these dis/advanges:
- Toughness 6
- Feel no Pain
- Combi-flamer with hellfire shells
- Cannot take extra equipment
There maybe more, but can't remember. Of course, these advanges don't ruin my day cause I play with Marines...
3. A weapon that could ignore Rez Orb. Man I hate that thing.
4. Orks S to 4. Really, when charged they have same S as normal IG.
5. C'tans T to 7, so that bolters could harm it. Points down of course.
6. C'tans 'Lol I Ignore your 2++' weapon of hell goes away. Points down of course.
7. Monoliths points upwards and very much. 5 points cheaper than Land Raider Redeemer? I call that Thank God that it can move only 6" a turn...

1. Cheaper nids, it's stupid to be outnumbered by IG and Orks.
2. If we can't get cheaper nids as a whole, cheaper hormagaunts. For their points value it's stupid to field them and it really limits your options for nids.
3. Storm shields need to go back to the way they were before, only applying in close combat.
4. Elder technically should have vastly superior physic powers. Compared to the new librarians, they are weaksauce.
5. Higher BS on eldar vehicles, or some way to bump it up with wargear.
6. More options for Daemon princes like in the previous codex.
7. Overall the CSM codex feels gimped compared to the new SM codex.
8. Chainswords should offer an armor save penalty on it's target such as +1 save. To represent that it can saw through armor and it's not just a sword or axe.

ChaoticFlanagan wrote:1. Cheaper nids, it's stupid to be outnumbered by IG and Orks.
4. Elder technically should have vastly superior physic powers. Compared to the new librarians, they are weaksauce.

My input on these two.
Nid horde costs are fine. a 5p Gaunt can protect something much more killy than what a 5 point guardsman can protect.
Eldar psykers are fine. Get a well equipped farseer and a well equipped librarian trying to cast spells on eachother or their troops. The librarian will fail miserably, and a ld9 psychic hood is not impressive. The fact that marine damage spells have larger number in their descriptions can be decieveing.

7. Monoliths points upwards and very much. 5 points cheaper than Land Raider Redeemer? I call that Thank God that it can move only 6" a turn...

Seriously? I think the Monolith is actually pretty well priced, especially given the fact that, aside from scarabs, you're not paying any less than 18 points per model, and they don't count towards your phase out number. A Land Raider of any variant is going to be a lot more dangerous, especially since it can actually cover some ground, carry a squad of troops without much restriction, and wreck 90% of the current stock of tanks with little to no issue.

To contrast: The Monolith will only cover huge amounts of ground the turn it deep strikes in, as over the course of a 6 turn game it's incapable of moving from one end of a 4' table to the other. It can only bring in troops from reserve, or pull a squad within 18" of itself to it's front face, which leaves a slew of necrons in base to base with each other, and if it does this, it loses it's particle whip shot for the turn, meaning that it's got such a minute chance of actually doing anything to a vehicle, and even then, it has to be within 12 inches.

To put it like this, a Vindicator has a larger area of influence over the course of the game.

Even beyond all this, have you ever tried to get a monolith into cover? It's not an easy task.

< Taken by the void dragon. >

Che-Vito wrote:1. Tau FW BS increase of +1, right now they shoot no better than a standard Imp Guardsman, but are worse at close combat. (Better armor save though) for supposedly the army that is the best at shooting, they are not so hot at it.

That's not true. Imp guardsmen and firewarriors may "hit" just as often, but hitting without wounding isn't doing you any good. In fact, hitting without wounding is like not shooting at all. Firewarriors are technically better in the shooting phase than a standard Marine with a Bolter. Ah yes, I know what you're thinking, you have to hit first to even roll to wound, which makes my previous argument pointless. Which is why developers gave them the 30" rapid fire. The Tau are SUPPOSED to fight at max range and they're NOT supposed to move toward their enemies. Here's my take on the breakdown. Keep in mind that this is to show wounding capability, not lethality.
10 Firewarriors VS 10 Marines with just bolters foot-slogging forward from 36" (Table edge to table edge)
FW's Wait. - SM's Move 6" end Turn.
FW's Take one shot at 30" Hit roughly 50% at BS3 needing 4+ wounding roughly 66% at S5 needing 3+ -SM's Take it and Move another 6" End
FW's Take one shot at 24" Causing yet another 3 wounds- SM's Take it again and Move another 6" End
FW's Repeat, causing 3 more wounds- SM's take it again Move 6"
FW's Repeat 3 more wounds for a total of 12 wounds before SM's can even fight back. SM's Take it and move into RF range
FW's Having not moved can either choose to RF at 12" now to cause a probability of 6 wounds, or embark their DF and move to repeat the above process. RFing would most likely wipe out that squad. However, if the SM player rolled their armor saves like I do -Grin- and was at full str, their shooting would look like this:

S4 BS4 Vs T3 FW's 10 shots at 12" = 3's to hit (66%), so 6 hits 3's to wound (66%) 4 wounds.
The winner for shooting efficiency if played stereotypically from TE to TE? FW's scored an average 18 wounds before they were Assaulted, and the Sm's scored an average of 8 wounds before they assault. This is why retreating before the assault gives Tau players a tactical advantage.

I know that this post was long and pointless for some of you who do the math normally, but I don't know if most players think like this. Stats are written with many factors in mind such as the number of models in the unit, the unit's role in the game, other unit choices for support (In this case Devilfishies and Kroot), and the ability to cause wounds.
I have never even attempted to make an army list let alone play with the Tau, but if I did, I don't mind the BS3. I can however, see Tau players complaining if they were BS2 or if Pulse rifles were only S4, because that actually DOES hurt your chances to cause wounds. But making them BS4 just makes them shooting specialists as opposed to their concept of being shooting oriented and thus an elite choice rather than troops.

Now I also know that unit position, terrain, and other factors are present, but that's why there are other units, transports, skills, wargear, whatever. But this is what FW's are for in my opinion. Troop Vs Troop shooty-ness They're WS 2 just to make it clear that you're not supposed to move forward, and give you a great incentive to keep the distance. Not all units should be capable at everything like marines. Furthermore, IG'smen aren't bad at shooting either. Same concept, just instead of having a S5 weapon and ten shots, you have a S3 weapon and a bajilion shots.

As for me, I think it would be a good move to make DE raider squads more assault oriented if they ever get a new codex. Elf pirates with one attack/model? Come on... That's just kind of dumb. If nothing else its just a cheaper less shiny alternative to Wytches in raiders.

Hehe kinda funny to think that if Marines were suddenly T3. Dark Eldar and others might get an update just due to a redistribution of popularity. Mini sales would increase because A) Points cost/model in game are reduced to you need more of them. B) Everyone feels safer (Well not safer, but at least more comfortable with the idea of suffering casualties) playing other armies, we have more fun playing rather than whining... Just because of one stat decrease. Trippy.

What about Tyranid-style +1 upgrades for everybody, obviously point-appropriate? I feel it would add some definite uniqueness to each army as well as making it annoying as hell to figure what hits/wounds on what.

Lawlz_Render wrote:

That's not true. Imp guardsmen and firewarriors may "hit" just as often, but hitting without wounding isn't doing you any good. In fact, hitting without wounding is like not shooting at all. Firewarriors are technically better in the shooting phase than a standard Marine with a Bolter. Ah yes, I know what you're thinking, you have to hit first to even roll to wound, which makes my previous argument pointless. Which is why developers gave them the 30" rapid fire. The Tau are SUPPOSED to fight at max range and they're NOT supposed to move toward their enemies. Here's my take on the breakdown. Keep in mind that this is to show wounding capability, not lethality.
10 Firewarriors VS 10 Marines with just bolters foot-slogging forward from 36" (Table edge to table edge)
FW's Wait. - SM's Move 6" end Turn.
FW's Take one shot at 30" Hit roughly 50% at BS3 needing 4+ wounding roughly 66% at S5 needing 3+ -SM's Take it and Move another 6" End
FW's Take one shot at 24" Causing yet another 3 wounds- SM's Take it again and Move another 6" End
FW's Repeat, causing 3 more wounds- SM's take it again Move 6"
FW's Repeat 3 more wounds for a total of 12 wounds before SM's can even fight back. SM's Take it and move into RF range
FW's Having not moved can either choose to RF at 12" now to cause a probability of 6 wounds, or embark their DF and move to repeat the above process. RFing would most likely wipe out that squad. However, if the SM player rolled their armor saves like I do -Grin- and was at full str, their shooting would look like this:

This is currently incorrect. Why the hell are the SM only moving 6"? With the new run move they now close 7-12" on turn 1. Putting them somewhere between 24 and 29" away after turn 1. At the very least the Tau only get 1 turn of free shots, at the best, they only get 2. I say 2 free shots because why should the SM close to Rapid Fire range? At 24" they are winning the fight because of their better BS and armor save by a combined total of 33%.

Firewarriors do not need to have a better BS. Markerlights fill that void nicely. What they need is better staying power, not necessarily killing power. Something like the ability to reroll failed saves, rerolls on LD to keep them in the fight, etc. Firewarriors really don't need to kill things faster, but they do have to stick around longer. That or be able to take a crap load of them.

< Taken by the void dragon. >

Totally right. Sorry. I was on a roll and thought I may have been on to something but I forgot that we don't play 3rd and 4th ed anymore... Probably shouldn't open my mouth until I pour over the 5th Ed rule book huh? Hehe. My argument was that stats are ok. It's all about how you play. I gave a crap example. Obviously I was just owned textually so I'm no master at the game either. And I thought FW's had 4+ Sv? Bolters are still ap5 right?

< Taken by the void dragon. >

No worries, FW do get a 4+ save, but I believe that Bolters are AP4, SM players correct me if I am wrong (a fair possibility).

1. Hormagaunts should not a have a BS. Decrease in points might make someone use them.
2. Lictors should be able to do SOMETHING. S or T increase would be nice. Or a standard Armor Save.
3. Carnifexes should be WS 4, but no increase allowed.
4. Carnifexes should be at LEAST I 2 without modification.
5. Terminators should have a 3+ invulnerable save, or be able to take the Invulnerable save after failing the armor save (like a WHFB Ward save).
6. Biovores should be more than Ld 5. Can I get a 7 or 8?

That's all I got for now.

< Taken by the void dragon. >

No bolters are AP 5. I don't believe there is a basic troop rifle that is AP 4.

Tau have the stat line they should have. Players just have to learn to play shooting instead of CC armies. I play with a codex that really is a 2nd ed codex even though they "updated" it. Nice update btw I could have done that in 5 minutes while driving. But, even with that 2nd ed codex I can wipe Marines by turn 3.

Marines should never be S5 T5. If Orks, Eldar, Human, and Tau are all S3 even with their huge range of strength in fluff then honestly without the power armor on I would say Marines are S3. (I know Scouts)

The biggest stat change that needs to happen and has needed to happen for a long time? Imperial Guardsmen should be BS4. Or at least the Cadians should be. They start training when they are what? Big enough to hold a laspistol? Maybe before then? No way that a human is training for 30 years at something and fail 50% of the time.

terrashand wrote: But, even with that 2nd ed codex I can wipe Marines by turn 3.

Yeah, Most of them were Dark Angels... Mine. When he says wipe, he doesn't mean just win. I shed a few tears...

That being said, I think that SM's SHOULD be upgraded a lot (S6 T6 at least with 1+ Saves). Sorely under powered army. Waste of my time really. Just a joke, but I second the Cadian buff. Fluff wise they are the best of the IG in my opinion.

KingCracker wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:Hmm, you're a bit off. April Fool's Day isn't for another 15 or 16 days.

lmao that was good.
I agree FLUFFWISE SM stats should be 5 or higher. BUT!!! if that happens then there has to be ALOT less of them. Orks are badasses in CC and they LOVE to brawl and love to fighter a SM. Now if the stats went up that much, they would get their heads kicked in everytime all the time. Personally I think the stats right now are pretty decent with a few exceptions. I agree tau and eldar should get somethings that up the BS. Not for every troop but big guns and whatnot. First time I saw tau base stat lines I laughed. Simply because they were pumped up to be this awesome shooty army, and they really arnt that awesome at shooting lol.

HAHAHAHAHA.

Typical SM-fanboyism. The Space Wolves regularly get mowed down in droves in the fiction, Fire Warrior was based on the concept that a Tau could actually KILL a Space Marine-- which is obviously totally impossible in your schema.

You know, if the Marine stats were ever pumped to 5's then all the SM fanboys would just say that they should be all 6's and have 1+ Armor Save and if they were given that then SM fanboys would be saying they should have baseline 7 for stats and even the weakest Space Marine ought to be able to kill a Greater Daemon or Avatar with his hands behind his back. u_u

It'll never actually stop because you simply don't have any respect for what a 4 means, you just want your troopers to be unbelievably badass compared to every other army.

At stats of 4 that is already saying that a Space Marine can do as much damage with a sword as sticking a grenade down someone's throat will and that even if you shoot a Marine in the stomach with a grenade that could blow open steel doors, there is only a 50% chance of even killing him then even if you can get past the armor that will save him 66% of the time.

What kind of total BS is that?! A buck naked super soldier should NOT be harder to kill than a damn futuristic alloy-armored tank, but that's about the level you are aiming to put it at.

The problem is not that the Space Marine stats are 4, it is that EVERYONE, almost, plays Space Marines or some other army of godly things that has stats of 4. How do you figure an Ork who can function at nearly full capacity after having parts of it blown off because it has no vital organs should be less tough? That 100,000-year old cold, emotionless, soulless steal automatons with self-repairing nanotechnology should be any less skilled or strong or tough? That your Space Marine ought to be able to dance circles around a 1000-year old Space Elf?

Yet, that's exactly the ridiculously, incredulous level you are claiming here. If anything, I would say as they are now the Space Marines have too high of stats, particularly where Initiative is concerned because out of all the videos/video games that have implemented Marine imagery they've always been slow, determined and purposeful, not zipping around crazy-fast like an Eldar or Genestealer. Not a damn thing about 8' tall brainwashed losers wearing 4" thick self-contained armor says 'superhumanly fast!'.

I'd like to see some stat changes to currently 'useless' creatures, I'd love to see codices where everything is potentially useful and we can curb the 'cookie cutter' lists.

For me as an ork player, I'd like the flash gits to get a BS increase so they are not totally unplayable (along with some rules changes to the snazzgun but this thread is about stats). I would think biovores and lictors, several necron choices, chaos possessed and havocs and a few others just need a plus or minus or a tweak to the rules that would render them useful additions and give armies flexibility.