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I've been toying with a house rule idea to try out with my buddies and am curious what holes you gents might want to poke in it for me.

Drop the force org restrictions, any number of units from each force slot may be taken.

This is something that occurred to me when looking over 5th edition since toops would still be required for scoring units.

So break my idea please!

Jack

I'd like to take 6 vindicators for 690 points in a 1500 game.

Belphegor wrote:I'd like to take 6 vindicators for 690 points in a 1500 game.

Exactly, and I want you to be able to

Jack

I've actually been thinking something similar since you would have to have troops in order to score. The problem I see is that it would mean a rework of the codices and how things are priced. Vindicators are reasonably priced when you can only take 3 of them max but if that is opened up I would say they are priced too cheaply.

Try it with your friends. See if any obvious power builds emerge or if things stay somewhat status quo.

I'm mostly predicting a bulge in Heavy Support slots, particularly tank type things. Those seem to be the thing folks want to take more of (whereas me I kinda want to not have to take an HQ sometimes).

Another idea bandied about has been to take Apocalypse formations instead of following the FOC, not sure if this is btter or worse in a normal game (probably depends on the formation).

Jack

I think certain units should cast more after a spam threshold is reached.
ie after you have 3 Vindicators each additional one would cost more, lets say 155pts instead of the normal points cost.

Troops would matter as much since the heavy firepower units would be unrestricted.
The scoring units would just get wiped of the board.
(except for chaos, since their troops are elites in peasant clothes)

We have this already, it's called "Apocalypse". You're just playing smaller games of Apoc without Datasheets or Superheavies. ALso, there will always be a tension between Scoring Troops and non-Scoring non-Troops, along with model collection limitations.

Using Vindicators as an example:

How about replacing the three units limitation with three squadrons (of three). GW already make the boxed sets for these.

That would give a maximum of nine vindicators, which in 1,500-2,000 point games would be no limitation at all.

How many Wraithlords can I field in 1,500 points if I take two (Troops slot sized) units of Wraithguard?

JohnHwangDD wrote:We have this already, it's called "Apocalypse". You're just playing smaller games of Apoc without Datasheets or Superheavies. ALso, there will always be a tension between Scoring Troops and non-Scoring non-Troops, along with model collection limitations.

You're not wrong, Apocalypse is partially what got me thinking along these lines (again), I'm not sure how well Apocalypse's rules hold up as the scale shrinks. Then again it may not matter much since fun is the goal.

George Spiggott wrote:Using Vindicators as an example:

How about replacing the three units limitation with three squadrons (of three). GW already make the boxed sets for these.

That would give a maximum of nine vindicators, which in 1,500-2,000 point games would be no limitation at all.

How many Wraithlords can I field in 1,500 points if I take two (Troops slot sized) units of Wraithguard?

Thats also not a bad idea (I've felt for sometime that all vehicles should be buyable in squadrons, but that might just be the treadhead in me talking).

As I mentioned though I do like the idea of not needing to bring an HQ unit, or for someone to reprsent their reserve companies or vetran formations.

As to the Wraithlords question I don't know off the top of my head, have not played against or with Eldar in ages.

Jack

People forget one of the most important rules from APOC - work it out with your opponents. Which means it scales.

If you did this, I would take a bunch of Monnat (single model unit) Crisis Suits and Broadsides.

Woohoo! Six squads of 15 Lootas and 3 squads of 30 Ork Shoota Boys for around 1500 points!

Leaves me room for a Big Mek w/KFF and a Biker Warboss

Oh! 18 Killa Kans with Kustom Mega Blastas for less than a thousand points. That would work.

Ten looted Wagons with Ard Case & Boomguns... 1200 points. Woohoo!

What you would end up with is a really bad case of "Whoever wins the dice toss for first turn, WINS!"

lol!

A Wraithlord kitted w/ Bright Lance and EML (pretty typical HS outfit these days) runs about 155pts. each.

You could probably have 8-9 of those with a Farseer and a unit of Guardians to score with...

dietrich wrote:People forget one of the most important rules from APOC - work it out with your opponents. Which means it scales.

Agreed.

dietrich wrote:If you did this, I would take a bunch of Monnat (single model unit) Crisis Suits and Broadsides.

This is balanced out by Kill Points though (and is in fact one of the ways in which I like KP as balance factor)

The Green Git wrote:Woohoo! Six squads of 15 Lootas and 3 squads of 30 Ork Shoota Boys for around 1500 points!
Leaves me room for a Big Mek w/KFF and a Biker Warboss

Oh! 18 Killa Kans with Kustom Mega Blastas for less than a thousand points. That would work.

Ten looted Wagons with Ard Case & Boomguns... 1200 points. Woohoo!

Sounds fun to me

The Green Git wrote:What you would end up with is a really bad case of "Whoever wins the dice toss for first turn, WINS!"

Indeed, mayhap it would work better if coupled with increased starting distances? say 24-48 inches?

Jack

Jackmojo wrote:

The Green Git wrote:What you would end up with is a really bad case of "Whoever wins the dice toss for first turn, WINS!"

Indeed, mayhap it would work better if coupled with increased starting distances? say 24-48 inches?
Jack

Not sure that would help. Lascannons, Shokk Attack Guns, DeffGuns, Earthshaker Cannons (Basalisk), Fire Prisms, etc. etc. all work just fine at that range.

Heh... in 2000 points I could take 20 Shokk Attack Guns. Now I'm getting ideas for Apocalypse...

12 whirlwinds = 1020
6 vindicators = 750
5 man tac squad = 115
5 man tac squad = 115

2,000 points.

hide the marines behind the fire line, blast anything to pieces.

@JD: I bring an Earthshaker Battery, a Demolisher Squadron, and Podding Guardsmen with lots of Plasma & Meltas. Maybe I bring a couple Russes. (I actually have this gak).

Turn 1, I nuke UR dudes.

Turn 2+, I'm in UR base, killing UR tanks. Also, I nuke UR other dudes.

What are you going to do? Lob Vindi pie at Guardsmen in proximity to your Tanks?

ok, ranged fight is it now?

since theres no FOG:

10 boyz - 60
10 boyz - 60
10 boyz - 60
10 boyz - 60
10 boyz - 60
10 boyz - 60
10 boyz - 60
10 boyz - 60
10 boyz - 60
10 boyz - 60

10 boyz - 60
10 boyz - 60
10 boyz - 60
10 boyz - 60
10 boyz - 60
10 boyz - 60
10 boyz - 60
10 boyz - 60
10 boyz - 60
10 boyz - 60

10 gretchin + runtherd - 40
10 gretchin + runtherd - 40
10 gretchin + runtherd - 40
10 gretchin + runtherd - 40
10 gretchin + runtherd - 40
10 gretchin + runtherd - 40
10 gretchin + runtherd - 40
10 gretchin + runtherd - 40
10 gretchin + runtherd - 40
10 gretchin + runtherd - 40

10 gretchin + runtherd - 40
10 gretchin + runtherd - 40
10 gretchin + runtherd - 40
10 gretchin + runtherd - 40
10 gretchin + runtherd - 40
10 gretchin + runtherd - 40
10 gretchin + runtherd - 40
10 gretchin + runtherd - 40
10 gretchin + runtherd - 40
10 gretchin + runtherd - 40


i dont care how many pie plates you have, you cant kill em all in a few turns, and its not like im short on units to take objectives

No problem.

Now, you just gotta build & paint them.

200 boyz
200 gretchin
20 runtherds

ok, green spray, paint metal and clothes, wash with badab and pick out teeth and eyes, shouldnt take me that long lol.


i wouldnt mind using that list, movement phase would be a bitch though.

Yeah, because it's "only" 400+ models???

Right. There are guys with way less than that painted.

you have the money for that?!?!

i think this rule change would work well when used with desgression.... like an upper limit.... no more than say 3 of a specific thing...... like whirwinds n shizzle like dat....

EDIT: spelling.... could you tell? if there is more just pretend you never noticed...

The Green Git wrote:Heh... in 2000 points I could take 20 Shokk Attack Guns. Now I'm getting ideas for Apocalypse...

See fun ideas abound in this...guess it just goes to show Apocalypse brings all the fun ideas out I guess.

JD21290 wrote:200 boyz
200 gretchin
20 runtherds

ok, green spray, paint metal and clothes, wash with badab and pick out teeth and eyes, shouldnt take me that long lol.


i wouldnt mind using that list, movement phase would be a bitch though.

Can it win a KP misison though? Needs to table the enemies and has no heavy hitters...

Jack

IRPurple wrote:i think this rule change would work well when used with desgression.... like an upper limit.... no more than say 3 of a specific thing...... like whirwinds n shizzle like dat....

Wait... you mean limit the number of a given unit you can take...

Sort of like a Force Org Chart?

john, with apoc taunting me i may have to attempt this, allthough i dont know what long term psychological effects it may have.


purple, its not actually that expensive

£12 for 20 black reach boyz.
10 lots of that = £120

£7 for 10 gretchin + 1 runtherd
20 lots needed = £140

total of £260 for all that isnt too bad atall, i was expecting around the 350 ish mark.




jack, we said nothing about KP's here
if so, then ill just throw them in maxed out units and hope for the best.

nah, only on things that would be overly abused.... like i mean 10LRs, 2500(yeah no scoring) but im sure they would have a bit of fun tryin to pull that apart... but oh well, just make it more relaxed, or make it X2?

1500 points? That is a pile of Flyrants and Carnifexes.

400 models in 2000 points?

Sounds like 400 Spinegaunts to me! Could I kill a tank? No, but infantry is HOSED.

or as many WON guants as possible
ok, you could go through alot of KP each game, but you may wipe out an enemy if he has nothing over AV10 rear armour

on that note, im off to watch skins then go to bed since its 1:40am

JD21290 wrote:
jack, we said nothing about KP's here
if so, then ill just throw them in maxed out units and hope for the best.

See its the 5th misison balance that is part of the reason I think this is less broken then it would have been in 4th.

Jack

i still prefer to play by VP
alot of friends collect guard, and i felt sorry for them, so 90% of the time we play VP instead to make it a little more fair.

saying this, soon ill be getting hit by 6-9 russ's a turn -_-

Hmm...am I the only one who likes the FOC for reg 40k? Anyway if its under 2000 points I would rather see it be like the old CSM dex where (depending on army) you would exchange 2 of your squads from 1 selection to gain 1 extra slot somewhere else.

Ex. IW - you got rid of 2 FA slots and gained an extra Hvy.