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I really dislike the idea of special characters all over the place. Does Mr. Shrike personally attend every single military engagement of the Raven Guard? Probably not, but he's pretty much mandatory now if you want to play that kind of army.

The old system, where big guys like him and other important leaders could only be fielded in armies of 2000 points and up just made so much more sense.

Why would a Chapter Master even take time off from his planning and logistics and stuff to attend a 1000 point skirmish?

Because a marine army wouldn't be competetive without their special characters.

anmitee, marines are very competative without special characters.
they just add flavour to marine armies.

they have access to alot of great things



special characters in small games dont bother me.
if someone wants to spend 225 points taking ghaz, thats fine with me, thats a tac squad

cerberez wrote:Why would a Chapter Master even take time off from his planning and logistics and stuff to attend a 1000 point skirmish?

You have to remember that for the most part, the scope and points we play on the table are supposed to be representative of a zoomed in view of a larger battlefield and not a stand alone fight. So while it seems weird that Marneus Calgar is running around with only a 1000 point force, it's more representative of that small force impacting the enemies line(or vice versa) during a larger engagement where, up until that point, the basic range of a Bolter or the like wasn't going to make an impression on the battle at large.

It's much easier to think of it in terms of a war movie where you follow around a single group of soldiers: you get a sense of what's happening to and around them, but not really a sense of the entirety of the war.

How do you feel about space marines being in almost every battle fought?

stonefox wrote:How do you feel about space marines being in almost every battle fought?

Or the fact that there's no LatD list anymore, even though GW fluff says the vast majority of Chaos forces are traitors and mutants?

hey who cares. Trying to figure out the GW fluff makes my butthole hurt.

KingCracker wrote:hey who cares. Trying to figure out the GW fluff makes my butthole hurt.

Stop trying to put the books in there. They won't fit

KingCracker wrote:hey who cares. Trying to figure out the GW fluff makes my butthole hurt.

before GW fluff (_._)


after Gw fluff (_o_)

after an 'ard boyz tourney (_O_)

In a word:

Sales

Two_Heads, that was just wrong on all kinds of levels. I don't think there's an Orkmoticon which sums up my emotions at the moment...

robertsjf wrote:In a word:

Sales

Pretty much it.

From memory, there was even a mention of it in White Dwarf back around the time 5th edition was released. They noticed that while Special Characters were restricted to certain sized battles and required opponent's permission to use, people just stopped using them.

Even so, the Space Marine Codex mechanic of requiring a Special Character to "activate" a particular Chapter's special rules is rubbish.

Use the "This skirmish represents a small part of a much larger battle" argument all you like, but it falls apart when you start playing a campaign with say, Crimson Fists and Pedro Kantor has to be around for every single exchange of bolter fire for them to benefit from stubborn and sternguard being able to hold objectives.

Flashman wrote: but it falls apart when you start playing a campaign with say, Crimson Fists and Pedro Kantor has to be around for every single exchange of bolter fire for them to benefit from stubborn and sternguard being able to hold objectives.

So work a rule into your campaign rules, allowing an army to benefit from included Special Character's rules whether they're currently on the table or not.

cerberez wrote:I really dislike the idea of special characters all over the place. Does Mr. Shrike personally attend every single military engagement of the Raven Guard? Probably not, but he's pretty much mandatory now if you want to play that kind of army.

Believe me, it's this and the 5th Ed vehicle rules that are my two biggest gripes with 40K at the moment. Why you suddenly have to bring a special character to play the Chapter you've always played without him is just silly. I mean... the idea that the Master of the Ravenwing shows up to every battle they fight, or how Belial must be there for every minor Skirmish, or how Salamanders forget to use their Flamers and Thunder Hammers whenever Vulkan's not around... uhh... I hate it.

Yes but having the miniment of troops with pedro is great. (sternguard scoring units)

Space Marine Chapters are small.

Really tiny. 1000 Marines + Support and Administrative Staff (e.g. Techmarines, Librarians, etc.).

10 Battle Companies, of which 5 are reserve companies. So you're looking at a total fighting force of around 500.

In a 1500 point company it's quite possible that 10% of the Chapter's entire fighting forces are on the table.

Considering that the Chapter might be subdivided into 2 or 3 engagements at a particularly busy time, that battle might represent 40% of the troops available to the Chapter Master in the theatre.

But in a few weeks time i'm sure you will (probably, considering the new trend) be able to take Yarrick or Creed in a 1000 pt guard army, which is silly!