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Blood and Slaughter wrote:

GW only gets to control what it creates

M'learned friend informs me:

Under Copyright this is true. Under Trademark it is absolutely untrue. One need not create anything in order to Trademark it. Furthermore whilst Copyright exists de facto and continues to exist even if breached and undefended, Trademark is lost if it is not defended. trademark law is basically terrible but companies must act in ways that seem extreme to outsiders in order to defend it. In this case I suspect GW are defending both Copyright and Trademark which are terms easily confused by laymen anyway and thought to be pretty much the same, which they are not. You can throw in patent as another sort of 'company property' but it doesn't seem to have any bearing in this particular case. It however is differnet again both in protections offered, how violations are established and how it must be defended.

If you take a statement out of context then you'll fail to grasp the totality of the message.

I said...

aka_mythos wrote:GW only gets to control what it creates and has a right to ensure what someone else creates isn't by design confused with their product.

This part refers to copyright:

aka_mythos wrote:GW only gets to control what it creates

By this part I'm referring to trademark:

aka_mythos wrote:...and has a right to ensure what someone else creates isn't by design confused with their product.

So before you go on for multiple posts on a false assumption, please consider.

nightside wrote:Damn! Today was the first time I found out about Chapter House too! I went and checked out their website and the first thing I thought was "Wow those wheeled Chimera conversion kits are insane and I want some" but the very next thing I thought was "Why haven't GW sued these guys? I cannot tell you why I thought the latter as I have no idea. It just seems like the kind of thing that would happen and now it has. I still want those Chimera wheels though.

The Chimera wheels are still available. This lawsuit has been going on for quite some time now, and it doesn't look like there will be any ruling anytime soon.

The trouble I have is why Games Workshop chose to sue Chapterhouse. The truth is, at least so far as I can tell, because Chapterhouse is small, and because Chapterhouse is based in the United States where people have to pay for their own legal defense. Ultimately, that means that it might have been very easy to threaten a lawsuit and put the company under that way.

Now, this suit isn't going to come to a conclusion very soon. I mean, we have a court date in the Fall, right? So go ahead and grab those Chimera wheels and some shoulderpads.

odinsgrandson wrote:So go ahead and grab those Chimera wheels and some shoulderpads.

I would rather say, grab GW products before they raise prises in June "due to increased costs for incompetent IP lawyers".
Difficult to convict Chapterhouse when GW can't even be forced to file a formally correct case.

I just looked on the site and they have female guardsmen (I suppose that would make them guardswomen) that don't have abnormally giant boob armour. I must buy them in case GW succeeds. Must buy hundreds.

Buttons wrote:I just looked on the site and they have female guardsmen (I suppose that would make them guardswomen) that don't have abnormally giant boob armour. I must buy them in case GW succeeds. Must buy hundreds.

LOL! But I understand the sentiment

GW only has the copyright on abnormally giant boob armour, so you should be save

Kroothawk said,

I would rather say, grab GW products before they raise prises in June "due to increased costs for incompetent IP lawyers".
Difficult to convict Chapterhouse when GW can't even be forced to file a formally correct case.

Truer words are hard to find.
I'm going to get on that right away, I needed a few things anyhow.

Kroothawk wrote:
I would rather say, grab GW products before they raise prises in June "due to increased costs for incompetent IP lawyers".
Difficult to convict Chapterhouse when GW can't even be forced to file a formally correct case.

Oh, come on. They were going to raise prices anyway, with or without this case.

Damn, thought there was an actual update

Kroothawk wrote:Damn, thought there was an actual update

I had it worse. I saw you (breaker of all news) where the last poster and was certain there was an update

Let's all stick to the topic.

By any chance, has there been any new information on the suit? I'm not super savvy in how to use PACER and stuff like that, so I don't really know how to research the issue myself. I know that we're rapidly approaching another one of the deadlines for filing or something that was set by the courts.

Any information would be much appreciated.

(PS: I'm getting a threadomancy warning when I try to post this, even though the last post was only a month ago. I hope the mods don't get mad. This issue has been discussed so thoroughly in this thread and in such a non-hostile manner that I would hate to try to re-create the discussion in a new thread.)

The archived information regarding the case can be found here:

http://archive.recapthelaw.org/ilnd/250791/

Nothing really new to report from that though. I talked with a friend who uses the paid side of PACER a week or so ago and asked him if he could poke at the case a bit.

As I understand it, normal discovery period is now finished and they are moving on to the next stage. The actual trial date isn't scheduled until early December though - so there is still a good amount of time between now and then. Most of what happens between now and then relates to setting up the case and identifying things like expert witnesses and what not (still early and I don't have the email in front of me...but that was the jist of it).

Normally, this period also is when one side or the other decides whether or not they really want to go forward. While it might appear to some that Chapterhouse has a lot to loose and might look for a way to back down - GW actually stands to loose the most. Should they go to trial and loose - the ramifications would be fairly far reaching (and you would likely see an explosion of various "nots").

If they settle under a sealed agreement before trial (buy out Chapterhouse and all models for a very attractive figure for example - sort of like TSR did back in the day with GDW's Dangerous Journeys) - it would maintain their current status quo with upstarts. People would be uncertain as to the actual legal standing of their copyright and trademark claims - and the majority will roll over with a C&D.

While I really, really, really would like to see a court ruling - I would not be surprised at all if they made CH an offer they could not justifiably refuse in order to prevent the chance of loosing in court.

Thanks for the update, Sean.

You know, you bring something up that I had not considered.

If GW did settle out of court with CHS, and that settlement included GW buying out CHS and a strict non-disclosure clause, it would almost be the same as GW winning the case. The general public and other 3rd party manufacturers might very well believe that CHS folded because CHS would cease to exist and there would be no public information to the contrary.

Saldiven wrote:
If GW did settle out of court with CHS, and that settlement included GW buying out CHS and a strict non-disclosure clause, it would almost be the same as GW winning the case. The general public and other 3rd party manufacturers might very well believe that CHS folded because CHS would cease to exist and there would be no public information to the contrary.

I don't think this would stay secret for long. The gaming industry seems to have a lot of gossip, and even if CHS was paid outrageous sums to say 'No Comment' on it, it'd get out somewhere. GW might have to mention it in their financials, for example. I think a US-listed company could: not sure about UK.

After 1.5 years, did GW lawyers condescend to tell the court what exactly they are accusing Chapterhouse of, like showing a proven copyright that was breached? Or are they still in the "Lackey, make them stop, they annoy us" modus? If GW doesn't file a proper lawsuit, they certainly can't win it.

Balance wrote:

Saldiven wrote:
If GW did settle out of court with CHS, and that settlement included GW buying out CHS and a strict non-disclosure clause, it would almost be the same as GW winning the case. The general public and other 3rd party manufacturers might very well believe that CHS folded because CHS would cease to exist and there would be no public information to the contrary.

I don't think this would stay secret for long. The gaming industry seems to have a lot of gossip, and even if CHS was paid outrageous sums to say 'No Comment' on it, it'd get out somewhere. GW might have to mention it in their financials, for example. I think a US-listed company could: not sure about UK.

It ends up being less an issue of whether or not anyone finds out what a settlement might entail - and more an issue of no official, legal ruling on the voracity of GW's claims on the IP in question. Even if GW were to openly state that they paid Chapterhouse...say a million dollars to go away, it would not necessarily mean that they had no legal standing and wouldn't really impact GW's claims at all. There would be a lot of speculation - and I am sure when Nick shows up looking to buy the beach house next door...people will be able to put 2 and 2 together to figure out he got a descent deal.

Other than Paulson still existing (with a smaller catalog of parts) - I don't think any real information regarding the settlement with him has leaked into the general public.

Anywho, that is all irrelevant at this point. I am really hoping to see it go to court so that various questions end up becoming public record. One aspect of CH's defense is that while they copied some things from GW - it is irrelevant since GW copied first from someone else (clean hands/dirty hands). Having someone like Jervis explain the inspirational sources he used 25 some odd years ago when the first figures were being designed and seeing whether or not they can stand on their own or are deemed derivative of something else would be interesting. Heck, just seeing who they manage to bring in as expert witnesses should be good for a laugh.

odinsgrandson wrote:The trouble I have is why Games Workshop chose to sue Chapterhouse. The truth is, at least so far as I can tell, because Chapterhouse is small, and because Chapterhouse is based in the United States where people have to pay for their own legal defense.

Actually, it would be because Chapterhouse were just the first company producing stuff that GW considered to infringe their IP that didn't cease and desist when GW demanded that they cease and desist.

I believe that this is the most recent complaint:

http://ia600405.us.archive.org/18/items/gov.uscourts.ilnd.250791/gov.uscourts.ilnd.250791.147.0.pdf

The actual complaints don't start till page 10. I am sure that it has likely been covered a few times in the previous 78 pages though - so I won't get into the particulars of it.

You can find Chapterhouse's repsonse in this document though:

http://ia600405.us.archive.org/18/items/gov.uscourts.ilnd.250791/gov.uscourts.ilnd.250791.150.0.pdf

It basically gives their legal position on each point. The first dozen or so pages are sort of tongue in cheek (though legally applicable) responses to the introduction which GW lawyers presented in their complaint. The responses to the legal claims get started around page 13.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

insaniak wrote:

odinsgrandson wrote:The trouble I have is why Games Workshop chose to sue Chapterhouse. The truth is, at least so far as I can tell, because Chapterhouse is small, and because Chapterhouse is based in the United States where people have to pay for their own legal defense.

Actually, it would be because Chapterhouse were just the first company producing stuff that GW considered to infringe their IP that didn't cease and desist when GW demanded that they cease and desist.

Not entirely so. A few years back GW sent a C&D to a website (forget it off the top of my head...had a name like Warhammer Forge or something like that). They ignored GW. They filed suit (I believe in Maryland...though the owners of the site were from Denmark). The owners of the site filed for dismissal and the case was dismissed. Likely have two or three of the details off on that - but that is the jist of things.

Sean_OBrien, are you referring to the Games Workshop Ltd. v Curse, Inc. case? If not, I'm not sure what case you are referring to. The GW v Curse case was settled out of court. GW filed its complaint against Curse and Curse never actually answered the complaint. GW eventually stipulated to dismissal with prejudice, i.e. the case settled. Basically, the Defendant repeatedly motioned to extend time to answer the complaint, which was granted because GW consented, and then the suit was dropped.

That pattern is typical of an out of court settlement. Basically, GW filed the complaint and then got in contact with the Defense attorney. The parties worked out a settlement, which took time, during which the parties agreed to allow extensions of time to answer the complaint; Curse motions and GW consents.

That case was filed on March 31, 2010, and was dismissed on September 27, 2010. So the parties negotiated for six months and then came to a settlement. There was likely an NDA, as Curse has refused to comment about the lawsuit in any way.

GW was represented in that lawsuit by Benjamin Dryden, an associate at Foley and Lardner (DC office).

A copy of the complaint should be available on RECAP if anyone is interested: http://archive.recapthelaw.org/mdd/177005/

I wonder if they're going to actually have Wargamers (perhaps semi-pro?) as Expert Witnesses, or pull some sort of "This man is a professional Sculptor, he understands miniatures sculpting" BS.

Anvildude wrote:I wonder if they're going to actually have Wargamers (perhaps semi-pro?) as Expert Witnesses, or pull some sort of "This man is a professional Sculptor, he understands miniatures sculpting" BS.

That assumes that this case goes to trial (I think a date has been set for that though), which won't go well for GW. They have the burden of proof here, and they still haven't even cited a single work as being infringed upon.

No jury will agree with a company that can't even say what IP was being stolen.

I'm really wondering at the breadth of legal education of the fellow who wrote these documents on GW's behalf. Some of the stuff is so loose as to stand up only if served with caffeine-pill-fortified redbull.
The scope of gak that GW claims IP for seems to tend toward everything ever created in human history..... I understand that most lawsuits blow everything out of proportion with the intent of sneaking things under the radar that can be used in a case win, and covering all of your bases, but this entire case smacks of ridiculous. I'm surprised it's still going.

poda_t wrote:I'm really wondering at the breadth of legal education of the fellow who wrote these documents on GW's behalf. Some of the stuff is so loose as to stand up only if served with caffeine-pill-fortified redbull.
The scope of gak that GW claims IP for seems to tend toward everything ever created in human history..... I understand that most lawsuits blow everything out of proportion with the intent of sneaking things under the radar that can be used in a case win, and covering all of your bases, but this entire case smacks of ridiculous. I'm surprised it's still going.

GW's legal process:
If you throw enough gak at the wall, something is sure to stick.

By claiming they own everything under the sun they can strong arm smaller companies who can't afford to dispute that ownership.

I imagine that when this goes to trial, CHS's lawyers will bring up said tactic and will show several instances of GW claiming copyright ownership over things that they in no way own, such as the chaos star which was invented in the 60's, 10 years before GW was anything.

Moorcock's eight-arrow symbol of Chaos was subsequently arrogated by GW and became a frequent graphic element in their own Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 games and the related miniature figures.

Taken from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symbol_of_Chaos

I'm actually surprised that Moorcock or his estate haven't sued GW over it.

weeble1000- Good to see you posting here! Sean_OBrien, your posts are also extremely helpful to me.

I just wish there was actually something to new going on (or at least, something visible, not behind the scenes) as I'd like to know the outcome of this this year...

Aerethan wrote:

poda_t wrote:I'm really wondering at the breadth of legal education of the fellow who wrote these documents on GW's behalf. Some of the stuff is so loose as to stand up only if served with caffeine-pill-fortified redbull.
The scope of gak that GW claims IP for seems to tend toward everything ever created in human history..... I understand that most lawsuits blow everything out of proportion with the intent of sneaking things under the radar that can be used in a case win, and covering all of your bases, but this entire case smacks of ridiculous. I'm surprised it's still going.

GW's legal process:
If you throw enough gak at the wall, something is sure to stick.

By claiming they own everything under the sun they can strong arm smaller companies who can't afford to dispute that ownership.

I imagine that when this goes to trial, CHS's lawyers will bring up said tactic and will show several instances of GW claiming copyright ownership over things that they in no way own, such as the chaos star which was invented in the 60's, 10 years before GW was anything.

Moorcock's eight-arrow symbol of Chaos was subsequently arrogated by GW and became a frequent graphic element in their own Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 games and the related miniature figures.

Taken from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symbol_of_Chaos

I'm actually surprised that Moorcock or his estate haven't sued GW over it.

I knew about that one, but I thank you notwithstanding, as I'd been trying to track down the name, though it seems my googlefu skill is still at "n00b".

then there is "the eight fold way" phrase which is a rip off yoga or meditation or whatever. and the fact that 90% of the heraldry on it is taken from some point in history, and that the marines bear a striking resemblance with storm troopers in the helmet region. Eldar are just space elves, so they would be a work derived from Mr. Tolkien's work, and the characterful replacement of c with a k in orks also hints at something.... The entire necron line is resemblant of terminator...... the list goes on. Even the Tau are a spinoff of Japanese anime (not up to date with this gak, it really isn't in my interests, though the designs clearly indicate toward japanese artistic origin), so I'm still trying to piece together just how it is that this case has gone on as long as it has in the current form.


seeing as I have nothing else to add here..... See you all again in this thread in a few months!

Aerethan wrote:

Taken from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symbol_of_Chaos

I'm actually surprised that Moorcock or his estate haven't sued GW over it.

Statute of limitations. Moorcock had a time window in which to complain. As wargaming was a fringe hobby in the 80's a lot of stuff was done by early companies that could not be got away with now.

Aerethan wrote:

THE legal process:
If you throw enough gak at the wall, something is sure to stick.

Fixed that there.


Yeah, many of GW's arguments are garbage, but that's normal procedure. Many are not however, Chatperhouse is pretty blatantly copying imagery that really is unique to GW (yes GW has copied others, but by and large they have a unique look) and is blatantly using GW's trademarked names copyrighted creations in selling their own products (e.g. Carnifex to Tervigon conversion kits), and isn't even trying to hide it. That is where they are having the issue. You may not like GW, my personal opinion of GW is at an all time low right now, but there's nothing out of the ordinary with GW's legal procedure here and Chapterhouse is pretty blatantly openly using GW's IP without license to sell their own products.

poda_t wrote: Eldar are just space elves, so they would be a work derived from Mr. Tolkien's work,

The word Eldar when referring to elves(or elvish like people) was actually originated by Tolkein. The word itself means Star People in Tolkein's Primitive Quendian, so it's very appropriate for the name of what are essentially Space Elves.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eldar_%28Middle-earth%29#Eldar

Enough chatter, folks - this thread has lasted as long as it has solely by sticking to the very specific details of what's happening RIGHT NOW in this lawsuit. And nothing visible is happening RIGHT NOW.

If you want to rehash what CH/GW is/is not evil, I suggest you just reread the thread. EVERYTHING has been said.