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On page 23 of Chapterhouse's responce, I found an interesting typo, or possible Freudian slip...

use of the logos and symbols associated with Games Workshops
WARHAMMER $40,000

adamsouza wrote:On page 23 of Chapterhouse's responce, I found an interesting typo, or possible Freudian slip...

use of the logos and symbols associated with Games Workshops
WARHAMMER $40,000

The price of the 6th edition starter box.

A little movement on RECAP; appears that the court required the plaintiff to offer a settlement and then whatever was offered (no details online) was apparently shot down because we now have this:

MINUTE entry before Honorable Matthew F. Kennelly:Status hearing held with
attorneys by telephone. Telephone status hearing continued to 8/16/2012 at 08:45 AM.,
for the purpose of setting a dispositive motion briefing schedule. Summary judgment
opening and response briefs may be up to 25 pages; reply briefs are limited to 15 pages.
Statements of undisputed facts are extended to 100 paragraphs.

Basically it means that both parties are (for the time being) intent on heading to court. The various motions which will be made at this point will be GW asking for a summary judgement in their favor for one (or more likely all) of the claims which they made in their complaint (linked on the previous page) and Chapterhouse requesting a summary judgement in their favor dismissing the claim.

After the judge works through all the various motions - what is left of the complaint claims will head to court (assuming a settlement isn't reached prior to that).

At least that has been my experience with this stage of things.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BTW - a summary judgement is where the judge looks at the evidence presented in the claim and determines whether or not the actual undisputed facts when viewed in the eyes of the law show that it is (or is not) a violation of the law.

That is one of the biggest reasons in Chapterhouse's response to GW's complaint that for pretty much every claim that GW made - Chapterhouse replied that they do not have enough information to agree...and therefore deny the claim.

I think GW feels they are in too deep to offer a settlement at this point that CHS would actually accept. If they did offer one so far, I'm sure it was a slap in the face of what CHS would agree to.
GW basically has OJ's view of: stick to your story no matter what.
Sadly I don't think it will work out for them as well as it worked out for OJ. They still have not stated a single item of their own that they believe was infringed upon. How a judge hasn't dismissed based on that fact is beyond me. Perhaps Weeble or someone can shed light on if the judge is following some kind of law or precedent or if he's just an idiot.

Aerethan wrote:They still have not stated a single item of their own that they believe was infringed upon. How a judge hasn't dismissed based on that fact is beyond me. Perhaps Weeble or someone can shed light on if the judge is following some kind of law or precedent or if he's just an idiot.

They actually have been rather specific a few times. For example, the Tervigon which was called out in their complaint (paragraph 37a of the Chapterhouse response to see the claim and the response to the claim). The Tervigon has a text description and a drawing in the Codex. The question for the case ends up being whether or not the model is sufficiently transformative to move from a derivative work to something which stands on its own.

Many of the other claims may very well be dismissed before the trial, but GW does have a few items which have meat to them.

From 37a:

"Defendant’s conversion kit will create a Tervigon having unique expressions proprietary to
Games Workshop, including having the same number of spine pieces and in the same
configuration; the same number, type and configuration of limbs; and similar abdomen sacs;"

This is pretty weak. Unless there is a substantial similarity to a GW 3D expression of a Tervigon (which did not exist at the time), there is no infringement. (IMO)

Let's break this claim down.

"the same number of spine pieces and in the same configuration" While there are GW Tyranid models with "unique expressions proprietary to Games Workshop", there is no way they can claim copyright on the number and configuration of spines. If CH made direct copies of the spines, then there might be a case, but since the GW 3D spines did not exist when CH sculpted their piece, no copyright infringement.

"the same number, type and configuration of limbs". Riiiiiight, since the legs used for the Tervigon conversion are the GW Carnifex kit legs, not something that CH sculpted, GW is claiming copyright infringement on its own products.

"similar abdomen sacs". Unless the CH sac is a direct copy of GW's (then non-existent) sac there is no infringement.

"ANSWER: Chapterhouse admits that it sells a product kit that can be used to convert a Games Workshop model of a Carnifex into another figure."

Which is perfectly legal...

If that is the best infringement claim they have, the case will be going down in flames.

Tim

I'm suing GW for making models that have the same number and configuration of limbs as my own body, which is clearly owned by me. They also have heads in the same configuration and similar abdomen as me. I suggest you all get lawyers, this may take a while.

The premise of that complaint is ludicrous.

yay, now I can sue GW for making nurgle marines..... cause they look like me..... fat

An interesting point from the latest annual report that was posted. There is no intangible asset recognized for copyright defence. What this means is that the company does not feel that the lawsuit to defend the copyright will succeed.

How copyright lawsuits work is that if you sue successfully to defend a copyright, the costs of the defence are treated as an intangible asset for the company that is amoritized over a certain number of years. If the lawsuit fails, it means the costs are expensed (And count against revenue).

If the lawsuit is ongoing, the company is allowed to treat the money spent as an intangible asset providing that the defence is more likely than not.

No asset recognition means that the company does not see the lawsuit against Chapterhouse as more likely than not for them to win it (Heck, it isn't even mentioned in the financial statements).

I don't think GW has actually won any lawsuits like this. They put the pressure on and people just usually fold.

adamsouza wrote:I don't think GW has actually won any lawsuits like this. They put the pressure on and people just usually fold.

To GW, that IS winning.

Eric

MagickalMemories wrote:

adamsouza wrote:I don't think GW has actually won any lawsuits like this. They put the pressure on and people just usually fold.

To GW, that IS winning.

Eric

In the short term maybe, but it doesn't set a legal precedent, and if they lose this case it might put a damper on how often they decide to use these kinds of scare tactics in the future.

Hordini wrote:

MagickalMemories wrote:

adamsouza wrote:I don't think GW has actually won any lawsuits like this. They put the pressure on and people just usually fold.

To GW, that IS winning.

Eric

In the short term maybe, but it doesn't set a legal precedent, and if they lose this case it might put a damper on how often they decide to use these kinds of scare tactics in the future.

Right. How this ends up landing will send a big message to the rest of the community and possible future businesses who might want to do what CH is doing.

Major update, posted by Sureshot05 over at Warseer:

As this appears to be bigger news than the usual legal fighting I thought we were due fresh thread on the subject, especially as it is of general interest to many.

http://ia600405.us.archive.org/18/items/gov.uscourts.ilnd.250791/gov.uscourts.ilnd.250791.213.0.pdf

As far as I understand it, GW has called for judgement and stated there case clearly. Similarly, Chapterhouse have stated theirs and asked for judgement. I am unable to access the Chapterhouse one, and I am no lawyer so I may well have this wrong.

I am hoping that maybe one of our fellow american gamers can get the corresponding response to GW by Chapterhouse. For those unfamiliar with the history I recommend reading the archive:

http://archive.recapthelaw.org/ilnd/250791/

Main text of GW's document:

PLAINTIFF GAMES WORKSHOP’S MOTION FOR SUMMARY JUDGMENT
Games Workshop Limited hereby moves for summary judgment under Fed.R.Civ.P. Rule 56
(i) finding that Games Workshop is the owner of copyright in all of the works at issue herein;
(ii) dismissing defendant’s defense of independent creation;
(iii) dismissing defendant’s defense that some unspecified number of sculptural works of plaintiff may not enforceable under English
copyright law;
(iv) finding that the entirety of defendant’s product offering as well as individual products infringe Games Workshop’s copyrights in its Warhammer 40,000 works and
(v) finding that defendant’s unauthorized use of Games Workshop’s registered and unregistered trademarks constitutes trademark infringement. This motion is supported by the accompanying declarations of Alan Merrett, Andrew Jones, Jonathan Moskin and Jason Keener, Plaintiff’s Statement of Undisputed Fact and the accompanying Memorandum of Law.

I doubt that GW was able and/or willing to file a formally correct suit, but I am not a legal expert.

Here's a headline I would like to see:

"In a freak twist, the Frank Herbert Estate sues Games Workshop for stealing a huge portion of their games "backstory" from the Dune universe."

I cringed reading the document posted in Kroothawk's link. I cringed and it brought tears to my eye..... I really want to know if it's the junior intern doing this defense...

....this is ridiculous, the amount of stuff filed as "highly confidential" is bullcrap. This is a public case, filing things as confidential shouldn't have been allowed. Then there's the crap of printing the website out.... really? They filed pages upon pages of website printout?

I truly and whole heartedly hope that chapterhouse wins this. It would be a major step in the hobby for conversion kits and alternate sculpts to not fear the wraith of a bankrupting lawsuit.

On the other hand they seem to have published the email addresses of all their info sources telling them about supposedly foul thing at Chapterhouse.

Let's hope the judge makes no mistake granting GW copyright over the whole universe

Kroothawk wrote:On the other hand they seem to have published the email addresses of all their info sources telling them about supposedly foul thing at Chapterhouse.

For those of us unwilling to go diving through legal documents, can you elaborate on what you mean by this?

BlueDagger wrote:I truly and whole heartedly hope that chapterhouse wins this. It would be a major step in the hobby for conversion kits and alternate sculpts to not fear the wraith of a bankrupting lawsuit.

Unfortunately, I doubt it. Your rights are limited to what you can protect and prove in court. A judgement in this case will likely only stop GW from sending more Cease and Desist letters to Chapterhouse but they can still bang them out for other mom and pop garage bits outlets. Unless those who receive them have the money to defend themselves (or get someone to represent them pro bono), this judgement won't mean too much in the grand scheme of things. Only if they can afford to defend themselves will a judgement for CH would be helpful to others. Even few thousand in legal fees can quickly run through years of profit for most of the bits outlets and you'd likely get billed for that much just to get the case thrown out ASAP.

(iv) finding that the entirety of defendant’s product offering as well as individual products infringe Games Workshop’s copyrights in its Warhammer 40,000 works

This made me chuckle. Are they saying that every single CHS product violates a copyright?

And to that end, GW STILL hasn't declared in most cases what copyrights are being violated.

I thought this was set for trial in December. Now GW wants a judgement? With the "case" they have currently?

Perhaps a higher up at GW decided that the quickest way to end this was to demand judgement regardless of their case. I can't see them winning here. If they do, I'll lose any faith I had left in the US legal system.

It is a sad thing to realize that our trademark laws are so out of touch that the trademark office actually approved an application for the number 40,000.

Now Warhammer 40,000. Just 40,000.

A number is now trademarked and nobody can use it.

Aerethan wrote:

(iv) finding that the entirety of defendant’s product offering as well as individual products infringe Games Workshop’s copyrights in its Warhammer 40,000 works

This made me chuckle. Are they saying that every single CHS product violates a copyright?

And to that end, GW STILL hasn't declared in most cases what copyrights are being violated.

I thought this was set for trial in December. Now GW wants a judgement? With the "case" they have currently?

Perhaps a higher up at GW decided that the quickest way to end this was to demand judgement regardless of their case. I can't see them winning here. If they do, I'll lose any faith I had left in the US legal system.

My understanding is that this is kind of standard practice. At some point near trial date ask for summary judgement, let opposing council know "Hey there dude. Capitulate and we'll drop this. K?"

Worst case, they deny summary judgement and you go to trial anyway.

d-usa wrote:It is a sad thing to realize that our trademark laws are so out of touch that the trademark office actually approved an application for the number 40,000.

Now Warhammer 40,000. Just 40,000.

A number is now trademarked and nobody can use it.

Please understand what a trademark is, and what it is not. It is an identifier to indicate the source or origin of goods or services, and it is limited to a particular scope or range of goods or services. In the overwhelming number of cases, it is NOT blanket protection against anyone using your trademark for anything. (The exceptions are for "famous marks" - the best example is actually Kodak.)

In the case of the "40,000" mark (reg. no. 3751267), it's limited to computer games, computer game manuals, card games, table top war games, and board games.

So I couldn't call my computer game "40,000 Leagues Under the Sea"?

H.B.M.C. wrote:So I couldn't call my computer game "40,000 Leagues Under the Sea"?

If you want a legal opinion on that, you'll have to pay for it.

But we're wandering off-topic.

If GW wins this, you need a ™ on the arrow key of your keyboard

Kroothawk wrote:If GW wins this, you need a ™ on the arrow key of your keyboard

this made me chuckle.

trademarking the number 40,000 out of context seems ludicrous. It may be one thing to trade mark the YEAR 40,000.

So no 40,000 leagues under the sea, House of 40,000 corpses games?

That is nonsense. It's not even the entire brand name. Is GW going to also trade mark the words "war" and "hammer"?

I understand trademarking logos or original names like Pepsi and Coca Cola. Those clearly only mean one thing. 40,000 existed for thousands of years before trademarks.

India should sue GW for using the number "0". They invented it after all.

Its like trademarking 'Apple'... its perfectly legal to trademark something 'whimsical' over a limited range of products. The 40,000 number, GW (rightfully) believes, is associated with their brand. They can always choose not to pursue a case against 40,000 leagues under the sea (because they would lose), but they can stop people producing 40,000: A space Odyssey.