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 Dumah wrote:

Neophyte2012 wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
What's a reliable way to remove a riptide once it gets its 3++ as Ultramarines?

I'll be honest I've been having too much trouble with this on my own and I need some outsourcing.

Run 18 Aggressors, Marneus, Lieutenant, Chaplain, Mark the Riptide with zeal of oath. Then bolt storm it to death. Your weapons will mostly be AP-1, perfect against 2+/3++.

Math tells a squad of 6 Aggressors averagely output 114 shots of S4 AP-1. Even with only Calgar and Lt., you are looking at average >39 wounds before Riptide making the saves. So on average it will inflict 13 unsaved wounds. With the further help of Chaplain buff, and/or even the relic. You will pretty reliably take out the Riptide in one round of shooting.

You may also consider spam the humble Tactical Squads as well. 5 men each, one HB and SB CS on the Sgt. Once you have 10+ such squads, Their firepower output is also astonishing under Tactical Doctrine and character buff.

Of course, keep your aggressors alive before they can fire That is the hard part when Ultramarine facing Tau.

A Jump Libby with Null Zone could also be of benefit. Tricky part will be getting him close enough.

Getting close enough is a recurring theme for me. This guy is not above gun lining me just to win. Aggressors would be the way to go but he'll just pop the repulsor with a fusion commander if I load them in one, and just gun line me if I foot slog.

Null zone is a no go since it would take me 2 turns to get to the riptide if he doesn't just move away, and I can't drop in and use it.

Honestly I've already told him that the riptide is too much for a casual game if he just keeps spamming branched Nova charge for the invuln and max shots, doesn't matter. We've yet to play a game with the new Tau PA book and but we've never had a game go to turn 3 before it.

Iirc the riptide is now the only high Toughness model with a 3++. They nerfed it for knights but this one is fine I guess?

Sorry for the slight rant

What systems does he run? I'm assuming ATS but whats the second one. How many drones does he run.

If he is not running target-lock (move and shoot w/o penalty) Make him move, get into CC (yes it can be done surprisingly) and force it to move. Now its hitting at a -1

If you're ultramarines, bring tiggy and MoH the repulsor (making it T9, the fusion commander is markedly less effective) and make it -1 to hit.
If the fusion commanders are consistently popping the repulsors, swap for redundant units like impulsors or rhinos. On average (w/o ml support, but overcharged) the riptide only does 4 damage to a rhino, making them excellent at soaking rounds from the riptides and then delivering people in close.

Also, do ultramarines have any targeted smites? Riptides can't pass saviour protocol on anything that doesn't have a wound roll. Hellfire shells/Flakk missiles for example bypass saviour protocols because they don't roll to wound. Anything that can do target mortal wounds without rolling to wound is pretty useful.

So if you bring a repulsor, heavy bolter, and ML you can put out 3d3 mortal wounds for 3 CP, toss in a couple psychic powers. Psychic scourge will add another d3 mortals, but will only be effective w/o an ethereal. 4d3 will cripple a riptide in one turn, then 3d3 (as the repulsors hunter slayer only fires once) should kill it the next.

Well, here come the nerfs:

As detailed in https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/785881.page


Special points:
-Doctrines change , no matter you want it or not
-Dreadnought stratagem is now -1 damage, no cumulative
-IronHands intercessors can't tank wounds for vehicles
-No more infiltrating Centurions

The forced doctrine change is probably the biggest change IMO.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Well, here come the nerfs:

As detailed in https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/785881.page


Special points:
-Doctrines change , no matter you want it or not
-Dreadnought stratagem is now -1 damage, no cumulative
-IronHands intercessors can't tank wounds for vehicles
-No more infiltrating Centurions

The forced doctrine change is probably the biggest change IMO.

Its honestly a well-needed correction. I don't have issues with it.

Don't see any issues there, I've seen people whining about it and claiming their UM and IH armies are shelved now but I welcome the change.

So now Ultramarines move with Heavy Weapons better than everyone else. Yay.
They could've made it so that the Strat wasn't deleted and could only be uses once per game to help keep things even between the two Doctrines but whatever.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
So now Ultramarines move with Heavy Weapons better than everyone else. Yay.
They could've made it so that the Strat wasn't deleted and could only be uses once per game to help keep things even between the two Doctrines but whatever.

Yes, I think UM and Sally get this hit lightest. They rely on Tac Doc., which they get to use Turn 2 and 3, and by Turn 4 the game is technically ended anyway.

UM is even better they got WLT and Strat letting them put units in their preferred Doc..

Neophyte2012 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
So now Ultramarines move with Heavy Weapons better than everyone else. Yay.
They could've made it so that the Strat wasn't deleted and could only be uses once per game to help keep things even between the two Doctrines but whatever.

Yes, I think UM and Sally get this hit lightest. They rely on Tac Doc., which they get to use Turn 2 and 3, and by Turn 4 the game is technically ended anyway.

UM is even better they got WLT and Strat letting them put units in their preferred Doc..

TBF Ultramarines don't have the insane chapter tactics that IH have so if it's a case of rebalancing rather than rewriting rules then GW have got it right. My one concern is about raven guard deepstrike and repositioning shenanigans, that feels like it should have been limited to troops not just infantry (minus cents).

Neophyte2012 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
So now Ultramarines move with Heavy Weapons better than everyone else. Yay.
They could've made it so that the Strat wasn't deleted and could only be uses once per game to help keep things even between the two Doctrines but whatever.

Yes, I think UM and Sally get this hit lightest. They rely on Tac Doc., which they get to use Turn 2 and 3, and by Turn 4 the game is technically ended anyway.

UM is even better they got WLT and Strat letting them put units in their preferred Doc..

Raven Guard, actually. Lists that weren't using the Centurions like that weren't hit at all. Salamanders are still laughably bad so they really aren't taken into consideration.

IF got it the hardest IMHO.
They only got their (really powerful) superdoctrine. gakky stratagems, meh warlord traits and psychic powers. Now they have a single turn of benefits.
Iron Hands got a lot of shiny things on top of their super doctrine, and keep them (ok, no unkillable Dreads anymore).

The rest of the Chapters got almost unscathed.

Another example of the poor grasp of balance from GW.

DanielFM wrote:
IF got it the hardest IMHO.
They only got their (really powerful) superdoctrine. gakky stratagems, meh warlord traits and psychic powers. Now they have a single turn of benefits.
Iron Hands got a lot of shiny things on top of their super doctrine, and keep them (ok, no unkillable Dreads anymore).

The rest of the Chapters got almost unscathed.

Another example of the poor grasp of balance from GW.

How is that poor balance ? Hit the strongest the hardest. The IH took already several needs while the IF were almost unscathed and now things are more even. They can't just delete the full IH supplement, they are clearly a very different army than D1 while the IF just lost two turn of doctrine.

I'm a fan of the changes, there is a lot more implicit interaction between players. The first step to beating IH/IF is too avoid to he T1 Alpha, which can be done. Then engage HARD afterwards. Feels more strategic now, which isn't really saying much given the servitor level brainpower required to play IH before.

I’m curious if RG will just start infiltrating Aggressors or not. Per point in a vacuum they are nearly as good, but that strat limit of 1 unit really meant you needed that 1 ultra beefy unit, not 2 units that together are as good. Also the rise of 3W targets meant Aggressor fists aren’t near as good as flat 3 from wasted hits.

As for lightest hit, the assault chapters clearly got even lighter than UM/salamanders, White Scars always wanted assault anyways.

I don't think assault centurions are going anywhere from a ravenguard list. You can still outflank them or give them a free t1 move. It's just your opponent will be able to react to them easier which is fair.

Sure, RG will probably just rush you with Aggressors, which aren't nearly as powerful or durable.

I think for RG, the Assualt Centurion still provides the best small arms platform, they have 1+Sv and -1 to hit due to Chater Trait. And 24" range 12 shots on the move plus 2D6 auto hit if enemy draws close enough (try to bypass their CT buff or try to charge them), compare to 18" 6+D6 shots to the Aggressor. Aggressors are better used in Ultramarine.

Yeah, I mistyped when I said Infiltrate instead of Ambush. I don't think anyone would deny that the Cent is still better than an Aggressor. And will probably stay that way given that errata nerf seems less likely GW is going to crank up the price on them. But still, presumably RG are still going to want to Ambush something...

Yeah, the amount of shots they put out is still impressive. It'll just be more of a pain to get into melee. It sucks but that's the way the cookie crumbles. Stormravens coming back packing 4 Centurions?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Yeah, the amount of shots they put out is still impressive. It'll just be more of a pain to get into melee. It sucks but that's the way the cookie crumbles. Stormravens coming back packing 4 Centurions?

Sadly Storm Raven is too expensive imo. I think you can still Deep Strike the Centurion in RG army, if so, just drop the 320pts flyer and Deep Strike the Centurion.

Why would RG is play assault cents now though? Wouldn’t dev ones be better? Unless I’m missing something.

 Crazyterran wrote:
Why would RG is play assault cents now though? Wouldn’t dev ones be better? Unless I’m missing something.

Unless you're trying to break the Grav Strat, nah.

They have different rolls completely. Also Assault centurions are typically taken with hurricane bolters and flamers from what I see, putting them at 52 pts a guy. The cheapest dev centurion is heavy bolters and hurricane bolters at 70 pts. But most importantly that assault centurion has siege drills for close combat, the devs dont. Personally the only way I could see using dev centurions are with twin las and a missile launcher, putting them at 110 pts a guy, but at that point you have to question if its worth it or not. I could see salamanders doing something with them making the d centurions untargetable but everyone else why not just take a dreadnaught with twin las and a missile launcher?

Has the recent nerf made Heavy Plasma Incinerators completely unviable again?

I was planning on building a squad because they look cool. I know they weren't as competitive as the rapid fire version, but with only 1 turn of doctrine bonus Vs 2 I'm not sure I can justify it even with rule of cool anymore.

I'm building an IF successor that's Primaris infantry only so the anti-tank power they brought was useful, and I play against a lot of T8 armour so I'm not sure what else will fill the gap?

DanielFM wrote:
IF got it the hardest IMHO.
They only got their (really powerful) superdoctrine. gakky stratagems, meh warlord traits and psychic powers. Now they have a single turn of benefits.
Iron Hands got a lot of shiny things on top of their super doctrine, and keep them (ok, no unkillable Dreads anymore).

The rest of the Chapters got almost unscathed.

Another example of the poor grasp of balance from GW.

Bolter buff works in every phase (just take a mix of bolt weapons and remember basically everyone has a bolt pistol) and they ignore cover meaning turn 1 is more for cracking armour, then you thin the hordes, and even if you're charge you have exploding 6s with the pistols before you pinch back.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

DanielFM wrote:
IF got it the hardest IMHO.
They only got their (really powerful) superdoctrine. gakky stratagems, meh warlord traits and psychic powers. Now they have a single turn of benefits.
Iron Hands got a lot of shiny things on top of their super doctrine, and keep them (ok, no unkillable Dreads anymore).

The rest of the Chapters got almost unscathed.

Another example of the poor grasp of balance from GW.

Bolter buff works in every phase (just take a mix of bolt weapons and remember basically everyone has a bolt pistol) and they ignore cover meaning turn 1 is more for cracking armour, then you thin the hordes, and even if you're charge you have exploding 6s with the pistols before you pinch back.

I think the biggest problem with IF is how they were a one trick pony and the rest of their supplement is downright terrible.

They're also probably the most boring of the marine forces, tied to the main codex for their only source of decent tools. Their only good warlord trait is literally "you get D3 command points". Their only decent psychic power is "you heal D3 lost wounds". They received very little support in their own Supplement - CF ended up with more things than the parent chapter did. Whether that was because they were scraping the bottom of the barrel by the time they got to them, or they didn't want to invalidate the Specialist Detachment outright, who knows? Even Legacy of Dorn is downright boring as all hell, even if it was powerful. Now it's just boring and weak.

Too many of their rules are inexplicably tied to buildings, a unit that does not exist in 8th edition. Some of their cooler traits were just outright replaced with worse performing and extremely forgettable versions. The whole supplement is a waste of space - they are disjointed, underdeveloped, and severely underpowered now. Even the special character for the force doesn't even have a bolt weapon. He lacks a bolt weapon, in the army that is (for better or worse) built around bloody bolt weapons.

It was bound to happen - there's only so much you can do with marines - one of the flavours is going to have to be the dumping ground for copy paste effects when they run out of ideas. Seriously, there's a legit stratagem in there that is just the exploding bolter shots from the chapter tactic! How absolutely brain numbingly boring.

Lemondish wrote:
Seriously, there's a legit stratagem in there that is just the exploding bolter shots from the chapter tactic! How absolutely brain numbingly boring.

Well, to that point several Chapters got a similar stratagem. It allows for successors to embody the tsctics of their primogenitors, and for the First Founding chapters to display true mastery. Iron Hands have a stratagem to Overwatch on 5s/4s, and Ultramarines have a stratagem to fall back and still be able to shoot, with/without -1 to hit.

 MinMax wrote:

Lemondish wrote:
Seriously, there's a legit stratagem in there that is just the exploding bolter shots from the chapter tactic! How absolutely brain numbingly boring.

Well, to that point several Chapters got a similar stratagem. It allows for successors to embody the tsctics of their primogenitors, and for the First Founding chapters to display true mastery. Iron Hands have a stratagem to Overwatch on 5s/4s, and Ultramarines have a stratagem to fall back and still be able to shoot, with/without -1 to hit.

Fair point. I concede on that piece. Strike that from the long list of IF crap rules and we still end up with a long list of crap rules, though.

Lemondish wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

DanielFM wrote:
IF got it the hardest IMHO.
They only got their (really powerful) superdoctrine. gakky stratagems, meh warlord traits and psychic powers. Now they have a single turn of benefits.
Iron Hands got a lot of shiny things on top of their super doctrine, and keep them (ok, no unkillable Dreads anymore).

The rest of the Chapters got almost unscathed.

Another example of the poor grasp of balance from GW.

Bolter buff works in every phase (just take a mix of bolt weapons and remember basically everyone has a bolt pistol) and they ignore cover meaning turn 1 is more for cracking armour, then you thin the hordes, and even if you're charge you have exploding 6s with the pistols before you pinch back.

I think the biggest problem with IF is how they were a one trick pony and the rest of their supplement is downright terrible.

They're also probably the most boring of the marine forces, tied to the main codex for their only source of decent tools. Their only good warlord trait is literally "you get D3 command points". Their only decent psychic power is "you heal D3 lost wounds". They received very little support in their own Supplement - CF ended up with more things than the parent chapter did. Whether that was because they were scraping the bottom of the barrel by the time they got to them, or they didn't want to invalidate the Specialist Detachment outright, who knows? Even Legacy of Dorn is downright boring as all hell, even if it was powerful. Now it's just boring and weak.

Too many of their rules are inexplicably tied to buildings, a unit that does not exist in 8th edition. Some of their cooler traits were just outright replaced with worse performing and extremely forgettable versions. The whole supplement is a waste of space - they are disjointed, underdeveloped, and severely underpowered now. Even the special character for the force doesn't even have a bolt weapon. He lacks a bolt weapon, in the army that is (for better or worse) built around bloody bolt weapons.

It was bound to happen - there's only so much you can do with marines - one of the flavours is going to have to be the dumping ground for copy paste effects when they run out of ideas. Seriously, there's a legit stratagem in there that is just the exploding bolter shots from the chapter tactic! How absolutely brain numbingly boring.

That...well that is a lot of opinion from the get go.

Lorewise IF are a codex chapter. One almost identical to the UM (possibly from over compensating from the Iron Cage, or a side effect of pulling hundreds of Astartes from multiple chapters to reform the chapter post-War of the Beast), but not completely. The few traits the IF have that differ are their marksmanship, the Feast of Blades, their seigecraft and being so stubborn that if they were tasked with headbutting their way through a void shield, the shield would give up first.

So this translates to their chapter trait buffing their bolters and allowing them to ignore cover (as they are so adept at dealing with the enemy's prepared positions they can shoot you like you're standing on open ground). The super doctrine reflects that.

Gameplaywise the army applies it's buffs to peel the opponent's defenses away, first by taking it's tanks, then by taking it's chaffe, and finally by striking the broken remnants in the heart. It's playstyle that rewards methodical forward movement, and a tactic I call "Dorn's Moving Castle" where you run small fire bunkers of Marines around a supporting piece. It's not the flashiest method of warfare, but it is a reliable one (also, exploding hits on 6s is almost the same as hitting on a 2+ with bolt weapons when you crunch numbers).

The "one trick" of maxing out your skew into the super doctrine wasn't the best way to play them, but it definitely was the most obvious. And even now taking extra indirect fire isn't bad as it can disrupt the enemy lines and ensure you can move more unimpeded. It's an army that can sieze ground fairly well due to it's offensive output and balances more defensive/static armies, as well as mechanized. Plus with the change to the army running more dedicated anti-armour/TEQ weapons is more rewarding than relying solely on spamming heavy bolters to solve your problems.

Some things worth using in almost any Imperial Fists list:
Warlord Traits:
Indominatable: To wound rolls of 1-3 auto-fail. Nice.
Stubborn Heroism: Take half damage (but can't fall back). Requires smart play, but good.
Architect of War: 6" bubble of reducing enemy attacks by 1AP, and improving cover saves by an extra 1. Definitely has uses.

Relics:
The Banner of Stagnada: 6" aura of +1 to hit in melee (great for late game, or for improving your counter-punch against melee armies, furthermore, since the IF have exploding dice on their bolt pistols they don't need to leave combat to do some decent shooting before punching the unit they're locked in combat with again, meaning they can grind units down in protracted combats since most units only hit hard on their first round of combat).
The Eye of Hypnoth: 6" reroll wounds for ranged attacks of 1. Put it on a Captain to reroll 1s to hit and wound on weapons like Lascannons, or Plasma Cannons for a more devastating barrage early in the game, or for making your shooting in general better (considering sticking it on a Chaplain who can buff your Overwatch to hitting on 5s or 6s for example).
Fist of Terra: Powerfist with a bonus attack and no to-hit penalty. -And- you can stick it on a Sergeant for a CP (Gift of the Phalanx). Quality right there.

Stratagems:
Bolster Defenses: great if you want a big unit of Heavy Hellblasters, Lascannon Devastators, or other important shooting unit. +1 Cover against most other armies is pretty solid.
Pain is a Lesson: 6+ FnP. A straight ~17% increase to survivability for a CP? Great on big, expensive units of basically anything.
Close-Range Bolter Fire: Turn your Auto Bolters into Pistol 3 and unload at close range (namely from inside of melee), possibly with bonuses if it's the Assualt Doctrine? Sign me up.
Bolter Drill: Double your free hits on 6s for IF is never bad. Stacks with the CT so it's great on high volume of fire units (hi, Intercessors with Auto Bolt Rifles).
Tank Hunters: Great at increasing your chances of wounding enemy armour. Anyone want to wound T8 on a 2+ with Lascannons?
Clearance Protocols: 10 models throwing Krak grenades or Frag Grenades? Situational, but useful.
Praetorian's Wrath: Only works on Turn 1 now, but it boosts all Grenade and Heavy weapon AP across the entire army. Good investment in general.
Tectonic Purge: Reduce the chances of being charged by reducing charge rolls by 2". Good for slowing down melee units so you can better shoot them in the face.
Fortify: Free healing. Not bad.
Aspect of Stone: +2 Strength/Toughness to the Psyker. Great for a more aggressive Psyker.

So yeah, maybe they won't break the game like the Iron Hands could, but there are solid options in the book too.

EDIT: And yes, the CF have it even better, but that doesn't make the IF themselves bad.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Architect of War: 6" bubble of reducing enemy attacks by 1AP, and improving cover saves by an extra 1. Definitely has uses.

It would, if there was such a Warlord Trait. Sadly, what this one actually does is improve cover saves by a 1 as long as the weapon being fired is AP -1 and the unit being targeted is receiving the benefit of cover.

I believe what you describe would have been an absolutely fantastic, flavourful, powerful, and fun tool. And that's part of my point - there's so many hoops to jump through to get a lot of these benefits, which makes them pretty weak all things considered. The above rant I went on absolutely is opinion - don't take it as anything but. And please don't think that because I just picked out this one piece you posted here that I ignored what you had to say - I haven't, I just decided not to quote the large post, no matter how well meaning and well constructed I felt it was.

You've provided a list of things that are certainly...there...but none of them are truly tools with anywhere near the same level of effectiveness as we've seen sprinkled all over the other supplements. If we're just comparing with one of the believed to be weaker supplements, the Salamanders, there is but one Stratagem for IF that might be at the same level as Flamecraft, Crucible of Battle, Strength of the Primarch, Self Sacrifice, Rise From the Ashes, or Relentless Determination. And it is limited to vehicles targets only.

There's certainly not a single item in this book that is at the same level as Seal of Oaths (UM Special-Issue), or Master of Ambush (RG trait), or the Ironstone (IH relic), or Ride the Winds (WS psychic power). You can dodge quite a few of the IF rules pretty easily, from Legacy of Dorn to the psychic power Wrack and Ruin. The one stratagem that can rank that high is from a completely different book entirely.

Even the Fist of Terra, a power fist, is a worse option than the Crimson Fists piece, and in a cruel twist of faith those Ork hating bastards can have both.

IF Supplement is not a very well written set of rules, from power to flavour to fun, and although I can't exactly claim this is objective truth on those last two bits, you'll soon see that the first part will almost certainly reign true.

Lemondish wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Architect of War: 6" bubble of reducing enemy attacks by 1AP, and improving cover saves by an extra 1. Definitely has uses.

It would, if there was such a Warlord Trait. Sadly, what this one actually does is improve cover saves by a 1 as long as the weapon being fired is AP -1 and the unit being targeted is receiving the benefit of cover.

I believe what you describe would have been an absolutely fantastic, flavourful, powerful, and fun tool. And that's part of my point - there's so many hoops to jump through to get a lot of these benefits, which makes them pretty weak all things considered. The above rant I went on absolutely is opinion - don't take it as anything but. And please don't think that because I just picked out this one piece you posted here that I ignored what you had to say - I haven't, I just decided not to quote the large post, no matter how well meaning and well constructed I felt it was.

You've provided a list of things that are certainly...there...but none of them are truly tools with anywhere near the same level of effectiveness as we've seen sprinkled all over the other supplements. If we're just comparing with one of the believed to be weaker supplements, the Salamanders, there is but one Stratagem for IF that might be at the same level as Flamecraft, Crucible of Battle, Strength of the Primarch, Self Sacrifice, Rise From the Ashes, or Relentless Determination. And it is limited to vehicles targets only.

There's certainly not a single item in this book that is at the same level as Seal of Oaths (UM Special-Issue), or Master of Ambush (RG trait), or the Ironstone (IH relic), or Ride the Winds (WS psychic power). You can dodge quite a few of the IF rules pretty easily, from Legacy of Dorn to the psychic power Wrack and Ruin. The one stratagem that can rank that high is from a completely different book entirely.

Even the Fist of Terra, a power fist, is a worse option than the Crimson Fists piece, and in a cruel twist of faith those Ork hating bastards can have both.

IF Supplement is not a very well written set of rules, from power to flavour to fun, and although I can't exactly claim this is objective truth on those last two bits, you'll soon see that the first part will almost certainly reign true.

You're right, I misread the WT. Yeah, it's meh as they wrote it.

And I won't try and claim the Fists are going to light the world on fire, but they aren't -bad-. They have a solid, if a bit a bit plain, tool kit that can play rather solidly. If I were to describe them I'd say they sit in a "fat middle". They'll play a good game, but they're more of a middle table army, except against mechanized armies, but they aren't bad, they're just not bent going on broken (which is generally where the stuff on the top of the heap sit metawise).

But even as a Fists fan I'm not even working on playing them. Instead I've started work on Lamenters because I've played shooting heavy armies since 5th (shooty Endless Swarms, Sisters of Battle, a fairly shooty heavy 5th ed CSM) and I want to do something new.