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Made in dk
Longtime Dakkanaut




Danmark

 Jidmah wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
The problem is we are talking about competitive builds not whatever builds.

Since this is the second time you bring this up - this thread is about all competitive gaming, i.e. gaming to win. It is explicitly not just about perfectly optimized lists in tournament settings, it is just part of the thread rules to keep people regularly starting the "I'm not playing just to win" or "I'm not WAAC!" discussion.

You are supposed to state which kind of game you are discussing and have to accept that their point isn't invalid just because you never meet such units in your play style.

It's also worth noting that when you deem vanilla terminators too bad to see play and blackie says that MANz are even worse than them, you kind of are on the same page.

 Jidmah wrote:
A unit is not not eligible to shoot after advancing unless it has at least one assault weapon.

Shootas are dakka weapons, the only assault weapon available to kommadoz is the burna.


Going to have to disagree. The rare rule says it allows units without guns to shoot and it allows them to do so after advancing. So a unit without guns by default does not have an assault weapon and therefore by your logic wouldn't be eligible to be chosen to shoot, but that rules allows them to use an ability AKA the Bomb squig. Its going to be a rare scenario where it happens but I don't think its illegal to use a bomb squig after advancing since its not a ranged weapon, rather an ability.

Bomb squigs are used when you select a unit to shoot: Once per turn, when a unit with a bomb squig is selected to shoot or fire Overwatch, if it has any bomb squigs remaining, the unit can release one.

Shooting phase rules: Start your Shooting phase by selecting one eligible unit from your army to shoot with. An eligible unit is one that has one or more models equipped with ranged weapons. Units that Advanced this turn, and units that Fell Back (other than TITANIC units) this turn are not eligible.

You are not allowed to select a unit to shoot if it has advanced unless it has an assault weapon: If a unit includes any models equipped with Assault weapons, that unit is still eligible to shoot with in your Shooting phase even if it has Advanced this turn,[...]

The rare rules change nothing about that, as it's not an "instead of shooting" ability. Technically it's even in addition to shooting.


There are rules for how to use the bomb squigs? I just thought they were abilities that happened to be used in the shooting phase. So that you may not need line of sight either as other abilities dont ened line of sight (i think?). That you could use them while in CC if you wanted, that you could use them even if you fell back or made an advance move? So one cant use bomb squigs if they advance?

As far as im aware bomb squigs, being abilities, are not shooting attacks. And an enemy would not get look out sir either. It would also not activate the nemesis dread knight teleport because again, its not a shooting attack, but an ability like any other abilities.

I have never used them as shooting attacks, ive used them like any other ability happening in the command phase or any other phase, just our ability happens in the shooting phase. Its just an ability. If it was a normal shooting attack i would assume it needed a hit roll or even a wound roll but it doesnt. You cant reroll the die trigger on a +3 because its not a hit roll. one also dont hit on 6s when using it in the overwatch phase, one hits on +3.

All in all i dont see why it should follow the standard shooting rules when its not a shooting attack.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2022/01/19 09:54:16


Hope, is the first step on the road to disappointment.

- About Dawn of War 3 
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






Of course there are rules for how to use bomb squigs.

Check the datasheet of any unit that has the option for one.

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Climate change is real
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Danmark

 Jidmah wrote:
Of course there are rules for how to use bomb squigs.

Check the datasheet of any unit that has the option for one.


sure but i just thought it followed the same rules as any other abilities. That it happens in the shooting phase was irrelevant, and it wouldnt be an actual shooting attack because of that.

Like the ability, Word of the emperor for sisters of battle. As far as im aware they can use that ability after they have advanced. So why shouldnt we be able to use our ability after we have advanced? Dont all abilities follow the same rules unless specifically written otherwise?

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/01/19 09:58:18


Hope, is the first step on the road to disappointment.

- About Dawn of War 3 
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






Every ability follows its own rules, there is no general rules framework.

You can only release a bomb squig after selecting a unit to shoot. Advancing a unit prevents you from selecting it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/19 10:13:09


Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in dk
Longtime Dakkanaut




Danmark

 Jidmah wrote:
Every ability follows its own rules, there is no general rules framework.

You can only release a bomb squig after selecting a unit to shoot. Advancing a unit prevents you from selecting it.


so you can only advance and fire a bomb squig if you have a flamethrower kommando? that makes no sense to me.

Hope, is the first step on the road to disappointment.

- About Dawn of War 3 
   
Made in cz
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Prague

Beardedragon wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
Every ability follows its own rules, there is no general rules framework.

You can only release a bomb squig after selecting a unit to shoot. Advancing a unit prevents you from selecting it.


so you can only advance and fire a bomb squig if you have a flamethrower kommando? that makes no sense to me.


Sounds like doing tax return

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Regular Dakkanaut




Anyone tried Grot Mega tanks? (competitive matched play)

Looking to take three of them with 2x2 rokkit launcha's & 3 shoota's at 130 pts.

the thinking is they replace the second squad of Scrapjets I can no longer take.

The loss of Kultur is annoying but the 4+ BS and power armour, 11 wounds and ramshackle looks decent on paper at least.

Anybody tried them?

Is the random move an issue with 24" guns?
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Grimskul wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
People are already whining about nerfing koptas


Yup, that discussion about the lack of satisfaction of us not getting MORE price bumps for guys like deffkoptas in the news and rumour thread was definitely eye-opening. Gork forbid we have semi-functional units. No, Ork units must not only be fragile and inaccurate, we must be overpriced as well! It's not like a huge part of our army identity is target saturation or anything...

Seriously, I wish these whiners would try playing Orks and see how non-functional a combined arms approach is for our army compared to other factions. You can't just pick and choose units and hope things go well.

I’m of the opinion that the vast majority of players who do well at tournaments and regularly play multiple high performing armies don’t play orks. There are a few known playtesters that have some orks…. But most don’t and even fewer play orks when they are at tournament since those lists tend to be skew and extremely expensive to build. (If I had to list a few known competitor players who play orks most of these aren’t playtesters are root, navanti, manny, Reece)…
So my point is when orks do well in tournaments these competitive players tend to have a larger voice and complain about the armies they don’t play.. and talk about how oppressive orks are. The rules team then make adjustments based on this feedback. This was blatantly on display during the socal open when Gw made an emergency nerf to orks (and ad mech) based on that 1 tournament even though orks already had its chapter approved points changes done… we didn’t get an early release of those point adjustments we got a seperate early nerf followed by the chapter approved points nerf. It didn’t matter orks had a healthy 55% win rate.. all that mattered was orks were a strong tournament army that was beating other more popular builds. It’s bs and I know I’m speaking to the choir here but it’s crazy how orks aren’t even in the top 5 codex anymore and they are still calling for nerfs.
I mean some changes are needed such as the aircraft limit. Heck even a 10pt bump to squigbuggy was warranted but the other point nerfs without any meaningful point changes to most infantry units is just knee jerk crap. And the buggy limit is kind of the dumbest design changes that completely ruins any point in taking kustom jobs. I’m usually pro competitive balance but the undue influence select people have in 40K is ruining the game.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/01/19 12:26:36


 
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






Beardedragon wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
Every ability follows its own rules, there is no general rules framework.

You can only release a bomb squig after selecting a unit to shoot. Advancing a unit prevents you from selecting it.


so you can only advance and fire a bomb squig if you have a flamethrower kommando? that makes no sense to me.


Correct on both accounts - that's how it works and it also doesn't make any sense


Automatically Appended Next Post:
gungo wrote:
I’m of the opinion that the vast majority of players who do well at tournaments and regularly play multiple high performing armies don’t play orks. There are a few known playtesters that have some orks…. But most don’t and even fewer play orks when they are at tournament since those lists tend to be skew and extremely expensive to build. (If I had to list a few known competitor players who play orks most of these aren’t playtesters are root, navanti, manny, Reece)…


Yeah, out of the people who came out as play testers at the beginning of 9th many weren't playing orks at all. Those who actually do play orks aren't experts on them, but are more of the "I play all armies" kind of people who in general don't do too well with orks to begin with. When people like them play orks on stream it often causes my physical pain to watch.

Even for the pros who do take orks to tournaments, like Nick Nanavati or Reece, they have been quite infamous about how bad and wrong their analysis of ork rules are.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/19 13:40:10


Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in ca
Gargantuan Gargant






gungo wrote:
 Grimskul wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
People are already whining about nerfing koptas


Yup, that discussion about the lack of satisfaction of us not getting MORE price bumps for guys like deffkoptas in the news and rumour thread was definitely eye-opening. Gork forbid we have semi-functional units. No, Ork units must not only be fragile and inaccurate, we must be overpriced as well! It's not like a huge part of our army identity is target saturation or anything...

Seriously, I wish these whiners would try playing Orks and see how non-functional a combined arms approach is for our army compared to other factions. You can't just pick and choose units and hope things go well.

I’m of the opinion that the vast majority of players who do well at tournaments and regularly play multiple high performing armies don’t play orks. There are a few known playtesters that have some orks…. But most don’t and even fewer play orks when they are at tournament since those lists tend to be skew and extremely expensive to build. (If I had to list a few known competitor players who play orks most of these aren’t playtesters are root, navanti, manny, Reece)…
So my point is when orks do well in tournaments these competitive players tend to have a larger voice and complain about the armies they don’t play.. and talk about how oppressive orks are. The rules team then make adjustments based on this feedback. This was blatantly on display during the socal open when Gw made an emergency nerf to orks (and ad mech) based on that 1 tournament even though orks already had its chapter approved points changes done… we didn’t get an early release of those point adjustments we got a seperate early nerf followed by the chapter approved points nerf. It didn’t matter orks had a healthy 55% win rate.. all that mattered was orks were a strong tournament army that was beating other more popular builds. It’s bs and I know I’m speaking to the choir here but it’s crazy how orks aren’t even in the top 5 codex anymore and they are still calling for nerfs.
I mean some changes are needed such as the aircraft limit. Heck even a 10pt bump to squigbuggy was warranted but the other point nerfs without any meaningful point changes to most infantry units is just knee jerk crap. And the buggy limit is kind of the dumbest design changes that completely ruins any point in taking kustom jobs. I’m usually pro competitive balance but the undue influence select people have in 40K is ruining the game.


Yeah, between what you and Jidmah have said, it really does seem to be the case unfortunately. Just like we generally don't seem to have strong advocates on the GW rules team, we seem to lack a distinctive presence in terms of dedicated players on the tournament scene, which is a pity because even if you're not hyper competitive, rules changes still impact and trickle down to other styles of play.

We'll see if GW bother reversing the buggy restriction at some point, because it's just silly with how much of an overreaction everyone has had to Orks being able to hold their own. I want to equal opportunity krumpin dangit!
   
Made in us
Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta






 Grimskul wrote:
gungo wrote:
 Grimskul wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
People are already whining about nerfing koptas


Yup, that discussion about the lack of satisfaction of us not getting MORE price bumps for guys like deffkoptas in the news and rumour thread was definitely eye-opening. Gork forbid we have semi-functional units. No, Ork units must not only be fragile and inaccurate, we must be overpriced as well! It's not like a huge part of our army identity is target saturation or anything...

Seriously, I wish these whiners would try playing Orks and see how non-functional a combined arms approach is for our army compared to other factions. You can't just pick and choose units and hope things go well.

I’m of the opinion that the vast majority of players who do well at tournaments and regularly play multiple high performing armies don’t play orks. There are a few known playtesters that have some orks…. But most don’t and even fewer play orks when they are at tournament since those lists tend to be skew and extremely expensive to build. (If I had to list a few known competitor players who play orks most of these aren’t playtesters are root, navanti, manny, Reece)…
So my point is when orks do well in tournaments these competitive players tend to have a larger voice and complain about the armies they don’t play.. and talk about how oppressive orks are. The rules team then make adjustments based on this feedback. This was blatantly on display during the socal open when Gw made an emergency nerf to orks (and ad mech) based on that 1 tournament even though orks already had its chapter approved points changes done… we didn’t get an early release of those point adjustments we got a seperate early nerf followed by the chapter approved points nerf. It didn’t matter orks had a healthy 55% win rate.. all that mattered was orks were a strong tournament army that was beating other more popular builds. It’s bs and I know I’m speaking to the choir here but it’s crazy how orks aren’t even in the top 5 codex anymore and they are still calling for nerfs.
I mean some changes are needed such as the aircraft limit. Heck even a 10pt bump to squigbuggy was warranted but the other point nerfs without any meaningful point changes to most infantry units is just knee jerk crap. And the buggy limit is kind of the dumbest design changes that completely ruins any point in taking kustom jobs. I’m usually pro competitive balance but the undue influence select people have in 40K is ruining the game.


Yeah, between what you and Jidmah have said, it really does seem to be the case unfortunately. Just like we generally don't seem to have strong advocates on the GW rules team, we seem to lack a distinctive presence in terms of dedicated players on the tournament scene, which is a pity because even if you're not hyper competitive, rules changes still impact and trickle down to other styles of play.

We'll see if GW bother reversing the buggy restriction at some point, because it's just silly with how much of an overreaction everyone has had to Orks being able to hold their own. I want to equal opportunity krumpin dangit!


on buggies i actually did think the 9 squigbuggies was absurd just the fix of one unit of each vs just limiting squad sizes to 1 was dumb. my guess is somebody jsut wrote that to "save us detachment space" not realizing our vehicle squads cannot separate like some that have specific rules allowing it. I would also be cool with them just adding that rule to buggies to save us that detachment space and allow them to act independently.

also mentioned on the last page but lost in discussion of how basic shooting phase works, but man custodes... currently playing with options, but I think they might be the rock to the ork sissors.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/19 15:07:35


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Yellin' Yoof




On the subject of MAN'z and Killakans I am also in the fence. Point cuts are cool, but it's point cuts on a unit which has no clear role like many mentioned. The famed hybrid unit which has many trait's but is master of none.
This makes the unit unreliable and with out a clear purpose.

I am not sure how to approach the clear bias for other armies some of you describe. Being new, this makes me feel depressed, since the ones at helm know less then me because they do not play the army.

Jidmah, is it possible for you to point out where the section of the rules that affects abilities is? I am also under the impression that the rules are described in the ability itself and they don't share similarities with the phase. So the bomb squigs are not an attached weapon, but something that happens in the phase? That's how I understand it.

It's funny many people are complaining about orcs, but some of my locals just shared some of the things of the new tau codex and i am like.. if the orc salt was big.. imagine when they see this...

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/01/19 16:14:20


 
   
Made in dk
Longtime Dakkanaut




Danmark

True. using 9 squig buggies was kind of malignant for the game as it breaks down the game. The game needs to have counter play, and massed units that dont need line of sight, dont have that. The ability to shoot without line of sight is in itself fine, as long as one cant mass said unit. Plagueburst crawlers cant be massed, they are fine, but squigbuggies and hiveguards are not.

In fact, no unit that can shoot without line of sight should ever be massed. And what happens when a unit can be massed that shoots without line of sight? Naturally they get spammed. And no one wants to play against people that have so many units shooting without line of sight, which cant be countered.

When the tyranids get their new codex they better not be able to mass Hive guards.

Us being able to run 9 squigbuggies was also kind of stupid. I dont have a problem with 9 of any other buggy though, just the squig buggy. And it annoys me that we cant bring more than 3 of the other buggies as they were never a problem.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2022/01/19 17:37:10


Hope, is the first step on the road to disappointment.

- About Dawn of War 3 
   
Made in us
Stabbin' Skarboy





Artillery is only oppressive because of the drastic dumbing down and outright removal of mechanics. Back in the day a guard artillery list could field loads of pretty powerful stuff, but had to contend with scatter and cover saves, but since those were removed simple “you can’t see through this plexiglass square” has become king. Artillery doesn’t degrade the game, the game has degraded the game.

"Us Blood Axes hav lernt' a lot from da humies. How best ta kill 'em, fer example."
— Korporal Snagbrat of the Dreadblade Kommandos 
   
Made in dk
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Danmark

 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
Artillery is only oppressive because of the drastic dumbing down and outright removal of mechanics. Back in the day a guard artillery list could field loads of pretty powerful stuff, but had to contend with scatter and cover saves, but since those were removed simple “you can’t see through this plexiglass square” has become king. Artillery doesn’t degrade the game, the game has degraded the game.


regardless, the way its implemented right now it doesnt work. Massed units that dont need line of sight degrade the game because it has no counters, and its unfun to play against. Sure if they brought back older rules or what ever but right now it sucks.

I will get very upset if they dont do something about Hive guards for the tyranid codex, now that they slashed our squig buggies.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/19 17:39:15


Hope, is the first step on the road to disappointment.

- About Dawn of War 3 
   
Made in us
Stabbin' Skarboy





I mean, there’s aircraft, there’s the ability to draw los with the super long range weapons we have now on most maps, deepstriking shooters, your own artillery. There’s solutions, people just don’t want to have to actually consider obstacles besides “what does the most damage” in list building.

"Us Blood Axes hav lernt' a lot from da humies. How best ta kill 'em, fer example."
— Korporal Snagbrat of the Dreadblade Kommandos 
   
Made in us
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Beardedragon wrote:
 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
Artillery is only oppressive because of the drastic dumbing down and outright removal of mechanics. Back in the day a guard artillery list could field loads of pretty powerful stuff, but had to contend with scatter and cover saves, but since those were removed simple “you can’t see through this plexiglass square” has become king. Artillery doesn’t degrade the game, the game has degraded the game.


regardless, the way its implemented right now it doesnt work. Massed units that dont need line of sight degrade the game because it has no counters, and its unfun to play against. Sure if they brought back older rules or what ever but right now it sucks.

I will get very upset if they dont do something about Hive guards for the tyranid codex, now that they slashed our squig buggies.


*looks at 9 hiveguard models to my left* well I guess we will see. though of note i have them to play against friends who do tournaments for tournament prep against likely lists, I would not put them against somebody not asking for a super hard list.

also my answer on the squigbuggy and all ignore LOS weapons would be -1 to hit much like power fists/power claws. also if unit is actually out of line of site +1 armor save

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/19 18:03:38


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I think a limit of 3 buggies each is fine. Especially if it’s just a single unit that breaks into seperate units.
The 1 unit thing is the horse crap that ruins kustom jobs.
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






Forceride wrote:
I am not sure how to approach the clear bias for other armies some of you describe. Being new, this makes me feel depressed, since the ones at helm know less then me because they do not play the army.

On the up side, the ork community has always been the biggest and friendlies ones among all armies

Jidmah, is it possible for you to point out where the section of the rules that affects abilities is? I am also under the impression that the rules are described in the ability itself and they don't share similarities with the phase. So the bomb squigs are not an attached weapon, but something that happens in the phase? That's how I understand it.

The rules of the squig itself can be found in the datasheets of kommadoz, tank bustas and squighog boyz.
The rules for when to select a unit to shoot is in the first paragraph of the shooting phase rules.
The rules for assault weapons state that a unit become eligible to shoot again.
The "instead of shooting" rules are in the rare rules section.

It's funny many people are complaining about orcs, but some of my locals just shared some of the things of the new tau codex and i am like.. if the orc salt was big.. imagine when they see this...

Usually other non-eldar xenos races are hit with the same amount of salt as orks
Can't have the almighty empire or the all-consuming chaos lose to some random NPCs, right?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
Artillery is only oppressive because of the drastic dumbing down and outright removal of mechanics. Back in the day a guard artillery list could field loads of pretty powerful stuff, but had to contend with scatter and cover saves, but since those were removed simple “you can’t see through this plexiglass square” has become king. Artillery doesn’t degrade the game, the game has degraded the game.


Massed barrage has been an issue in the past as well, and not just during times when barrage sniping was a thing. Stuff like TF cannons, lobbas and whirlwinds just didn't see play because their profiles didn't match the things that had to be killed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
gungo wrote:
I think a limit of 3 buggies each is fine. Especially if it’s just a single unit that breaks into seperate units.
The 1 unit thing is the horse crap that ruins kustom jobs.


Agree - they should just have axed the squadron mechanic and be done with it.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/01/19 20:54:19


Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




It’s really just what the court of public opinion regularly plays.. they tend to like aeldari, drukari (now for some reason), marines of all variety, and tau is a popular faction.

I mean orks will be fine but they like them B tier at best.. kinda decent and can get lucky and win but not something you bring if you want to win.

Our main saving grace is orks are usually fine with a single klan/sub faction (freebooter speedwaagh or evilsun speedmob and goff pressure list but the current build took a heavy beating) whereas most armies want 2 detachment builds and they didn’t touch warbikers/deffkoptas for now and they are decent in speedmob.

I’m just really annoyed by the amount of point nerfs without any real point fixes for most of our bad units… these point changes are clearly recommended by people who had salt to fix with good ork units and little insight into what bad units need fixing. The fact boys/grots/nobs/nob bikers/flashgitz or our myriad of overpriced support units wasn’t even glanced at to is attrocious. I appreciate the fix to lootas as they sorely needed it but fixing units like meganobs and killakans base points show how little the people recommending points changes to orks understand about our codex… again these are point adjustments recommended by a tournament/playtester base that doesn’t play or understand what they are doing with orks only airing thier grievances about where the bad ork touched them.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/19 21:10:10


 
   
Made in it
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Italy

Forceride wrote:
On the subject of MAN'z and Killakans I am also in the fence. Point cuts are cool, but it's point cuts on a unit which has no clear role like many mentioned. The famed hybrid unit which has many trait's but is master of none.
This makes the unit unreliable and with out a clear purpose.



100% this. Kanz and meganobz were already cheap, now they're really cheap. And yet they're not exceptional, and lots of players wouldn't even consider taking them anyway. At this point they're units that people might be encouraged to field only if they become really cheap, in order to be spammed or to invest the few spared points left from an almost finished list. And units that are viable only if they are spammed are actually bad, not good.

That's why I always prefer some rule or stats updates about such units, rather than points drops. Some really overpriced units that never see the table will remain massively overpriced, starting with flash gitz and nauts but also the banner nob, painboy, SAG big mek and probably tankbustas.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
gungo wrote:
It’s really just what the court of public opinion regularly plays.. they tend to like aeldari, drukari (now for some reason), marines of all variety, and tau is a popular faction.



Many players see orks as the game's comic relief. Others want to feel some kind of supreme tactician of war and can't get along with a race of not particularly intelligent creatures.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/01/20 07:44:03


 
   
Made in se
Screamin' Stormboy





 Tomsug wrote:
Spaming units… spamming units…. You mean these turboterminators spams? Dreadnouhts spams? Drukhari raiders spams?
This is a general design error with wargames. As soon as you allow spamming units to be competitive, defined as killy/survivable here, that´s what competitive players will do. Boredom ensues.

This is why X-Wing is popular. Kill factor moves on one axis while movement is an equally important one.

GW never succeeded in making a game that rewards anything but seeking deadly synergies. Objective play is a good step forward, but as long as they spend so much design time on layer upon layer of attack and defense it´s going to bog down into the same snarl of push and pull on what kills what best.

They need to start moving on other axis. I really like Dukk'An'Kuvva Blood axes got. That's fresh. But this coming Tau stuff of cutting through the bazillion layers of defense with big guns is just lazy and frustrating. Add all this bs plus and minuses just to ignore them again.

I often miss the RT days when there was charge reactions. "Your Assault marines charges those Craftworld Guardians? I guess they react by falling back." Next turn you roll Ld to rally them else they keep running. That was more interesting.
   
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 Blackie wrote:
Forceride wrote:
On the subject of MAN'z and Killakans I am also in the fence. Point cuts are cool, but it's point cuts on a unit which has no clear role like many mentioned. The famed hybrid unit which has many trait's but is master of none.
This makes the unit unreliable and with out a clear purpose.



100% this. Kanz and meganobz were already cheap, now they're really cheap. And yet they're not exceptional, and lots of players wouldn't even consider taking them anyway. At this point they're units that people might be encouraged to field only if they become really cheap, in order to be spammed or to invest the few spared points left from an almost finished list. And units that are viable only if they are spammed are actually bad, not good.

That's why I always prefer some rule or stats updates about such units, rather than points drops. Some really overpriced units that never see the table will remain massively overpriced, starting with flash gitz and nauts but also the banner nob, painboy, SAG big mek and probably tankbustas.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
gungo wrote:
It’s really just what the court of public opinion regularly plays.. they tend to like aeldari, drukari (now for some reason), marines of all variety, and tau is a popular faction.



Many players see orks as the game's comic relief. Others want to feel some kind of supreme tactician of war and can't get along with a race of not particularly intelligent creatures.


honestly I am of the opinion points drops can fix almost anything in the game. You could make a horribly designed unit owrk for the right points. say a gretchin profilewhere the unit is a single model with the shooting profile of the new rail gun. it would basically have to stay out of line of sight and far back before it gets its one shot with a 50% chance to miss but might blow up a tank. worth more than a 5 point gretchin... yes, worth 100 points? no, worth 50 points... also no, but 20-30 points and people would probably take it as a sometimes answer to a hard nut to crack.

cheap meganobs sounds cool and with the cheaper battlewagons they might be useable to deliver where they need to go. will have to play with the new points to find out though

10000 points 7000
6000
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Prague

 Scactha wrote:
This is a general design error with wargames. As soon as you allow spamming units to be competitive, defined as killy/survivable here, that´s what competitive players will do. Boredom ensues.

This is why X-Wing is popular. Kill factor moves on one axis while movement is an equally important one.

GW never succeeded in making a game that rewards anything but seeking deadly synergies. Objective play is a good step forward, but as long as they spend so much design time on layer upon layer of attack and defense it´s going to bog down into the same snarl of push and pull on what kills what best.

They need to start moving on other axis. I really like Dukk'An'Kuvva Blood axes got. That's fresh. But this coming Tau stuff of cutting through the bazillion layers of defense with big guns is just lazy and frustrating. Add all this bs plus and minuses just to ignore them again.

I often miss the RT days when there was charge reactions. "Your Assault marines charges those Craftworld Guardians? I guess they react by falling back." Next turn you roll Ld to rally them else they keep running. That was more interesting.


You hit the point!
Since summer - new dex - playing my buggy army was a pain for me honestly. Sitting and couting +/-1 to hit. Want to move? Try it on a dense table with 10” buggy move with huge bases. And why, you want to be far away from the enemy. boooring!
Speed Mob is such a relieve! You can move! You can do tricks with positioning. And I don' t speek about DS tricks. I speak about moving with the models on the table. It is totaly different game . A game that is much more fun!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Rumour seems to be true. Squigbuggies +20, Beastboss +30, BW -15

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/01/20/four-of-the-biggest-points-changes-from-chapter-approved-2022/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=warhammer-40,000&utm_content=fieldmanualupdates200122&fbclid=IwAR3XS92WXhsY5J0Sn_Nq_tsJS-HyTdmNxba5y_VhoKGqIa7ZhGwqXQPy7mU

The question is - do the squigbuggies worth the points now? 90->110. It is +60 for the whole squad. I tend to “yes” but it is already quite a lot!

I expect, also the +10 on scrapjets will be the true. In this case I will consider to switch to more Koptas instead.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/20 18:41:20


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Growlin' Guntrukk Driver with Killacannon





So, 120pts for a battle wagon with deffrolla. That seems pretty solid as a decently tanky brick with a little combat to back it up. The big question is do they touch our infantry? From the tease we got a few other sub performing infantry got a points drop or two. Hopefully boyz and regular nobz get a touchup too. I'd love to do a wagon taxi list.
   
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Prague

You will see next saturday!

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United Kingdom

I think a nitro squigs rukkatrukk is still worthwhile, but I don't think I'll be using multiple vanilla rukkatrukks going forward.

BWs look like they could actually be vaguely viable as an option now. Possibly entering distraction carnifex territory as they're just threatening enough to warrant shooting at in favour of something else.
   
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Nebraska, USA

shockingly im not really upset at any of these ork changes, i expected them to hamstring us hardcore like they usually do.
Closest to upset is kommandos should have been 11 and boyz drop to 8 rather than just kommandoz goto 12. It made no sense for them to be virtually the same cost even if one isnt a troop and one is to justify the vast difference in durability/lethality.

Squigbuggy was too cheap for being able to easily wipe out a 5man squad of marines with no effort, every time i fielded one it usually made its points back immediately or at most 2 turns and since it sat out of sight it wasnt hard to have it last 2 turns. Too efficient when something can do that w/o basically sacrificing itself in the process imo.

I havnt even used the Squigboss yet as i rarely get 40k games right now but on paper i thought he was a bit nutso. 30pts might be a bit too much but not obscenely too much.

Wagons at 120pts with a rolla interests me greatly. Thats cheap, thats mega cheap. Considering they have no guns other than the unit that goes in them it seems right, especially since they lack any real defense other than raw toughness and wounds (something that is getting less and less valuable). I feel like i should have a wagon with some meganobz and boyz inside it again.

An ork with an idea tends to end with a bang.

14000pts Big 'n Bad Orkz
6000pts Admech/Knights
7500pts Necron Goldboys 
   
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Growlin' Guntrukk Driver with Killacannon





Squig buggies are still going to be okay I reckon, the same with squigosaurs. To be honest it was just too efficient for it's own good. It's been a staple in many of my lists and i' not sure if I can ever remember them not performing, usually overperforming like one shotting knights with damage to spare.

The wagon buff has got me excited. The idea of moving from bugger spam to driving a convoy of wagons up the field appeals to the goff in me. At 120 pts with a rolla it's not the be all and end all but for it's points and against it's preferred targets it should come out on top in most cases. And that's before anything they're carrying jumps out and clears some ground.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Scrapjet is mostly dead. You should be taking shokkjump and kbb or deffkoptas instead now.
Squigbuggy will be okay but you mostly should see a single nitro squig buggy now.

Wagon changes are nice to bad most of our transported infantry suck.

Killrigs are fine pointwise but you guys need to also remember when building lists they are getting a mission nerf where bring it down now rewards 3vp for each Killrig. It’s weighted like a superheavy now.

Beastboss on squig is just flat out overpriced. He’s ok but certainly not worth 175 pts a warlord slot and relic..heck his point cost is higher then mozrog the named beastboss and no he didn’t get a point increase. That makes no sense. Beastboss on squig is 15pts overcosted 30pts more for 175pt base cost is just an insane increase. Considering the warboss on bike cost 115pts!!! There is absolutely no point in ever taking the generic beastboss on squig.

The only pointdrop I’m mildly interested in is meganobs.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/20 22:58:03


 
   
 
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