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I just looked into the Braid thread and thought this might be worth a thread of it's own.

Let me start by saying that I was a Diehard Nintendo fanboy for a very long time. My first big console was a N64 and I loved it. And from there it kinda sucked me in. I played all the big names: Mario, Zelda, Metroid, as long as it wasn't just a cheap sports game I bought everyone because I knew that if Nintendo made a game based on one of it's 3 main franchises, it's bound to be awesome. Which was the reason why I bought a GameCube.
Of course I also played other games on other consoles. Final Fantasy, the Jak trilogy, God of War are among my favourite games but the thing I was almost looking forward to the most was a new Zelda or Mario game.
Then came the Wii. And while Metroid Prime 3, Twilight Princess and Mario Galaxy are still damn awesome, Nintedo kinda....forgot about guys like me. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that casual games are a bad thing, but I kinda feel a little cheated by Nintendo.

I guess this comic sums it up pretty good.


So, your thoughts on the Big N?

I actually had an argument in class with a lecturer about this, he sees the Wii as something new and exciting, whereas my view is that it will kill mainstream gaming (or at least 'hardcore' gaming).

Don't get me wrong Zelda games are always awesome (i'm not a massive Mario fan was always Sonic myself :p) but Nintendo at the moment have realized that they can tap into this family gaming concept which at the moment is doing so well with the Wii and DS, however I feel this is largely due to the current economic climate once the economy has stablized again the people that are playing the Wii will begin doing the things they did before and sales will drop for the Wii and Nintendo will be cast up a certain creek without a paddle like they were with the Gamecube. Don't get me wrong the Wii is a great console for a party or when you have a few mates over but its not the kind of thing you can sit and play by yourself and I know many people that feel quite self conscious shouting at there DS on the bus to play a game.

Still its a great marketing strategy whilst it lasts but ultimately i think the Wii will fall on its ass when the market gets so clogged up with casual games that have no depth and eventually people will want a little more from the Wii, don't get me wrong games like No More Heroes and Madworld are a start but that's what 5 Games in total (Metroid, Zelda, Mario Galaxy, Madworld and No More Heroes) that offer any depth or appeal to the "mainstream" gamers for argument sakes.

I'd be interested to hear other peoples thoughts to Anung.

I don't like the wii, it's not for me.
But from a marketing perspective, it was an awesome gimmick that got people totally horny.
It might at a later date loose it's razzaz, but even then it is the cheapest in a depression.
The depression will end (we assume ) but by that time it should be time for a new generation of consoles... and nintendo can ditch the gimmick I hope.

And that comic is crazy consumer as victim emo in the closet stuff

I love the Wii. It's fun. I disagree it's going to kill "hardcore" gaming, as every hardcore gamer I know(including 3 people who made it through several tournaments on their way towards attempting to get to the WCG, the type who will drive cross-country for large tournaments) owns a Wii and plays it. And not just to play the old skool console/arcade games available to download, but for the weird, silly, and unconventional fun games they put out for it.

I'm not saying that weird unconvential things are a bad idea, but you have to find the good ones, because there's just so much crap on the market.

All I want is a new Mario or Zelda game. Or at least an official announcement. But with the exception of Wario Land: Shake it in October there was not even that.
It's okay if I have to wait for a new game. Hell, it took almost 2 years for Twilight Princess to come out after the first teaser was shown!

One of the best is actually a port. Resident Evil 4, I've beaten it 4 times and am working on a fifth. I can't put this thing DOWN! Must other games for it however, didn't hold my interst. Even No More Heroes failed on that front (GASP! Blasphemy!).

I read some reviews of No More Heroes. The sheer awesomeness of some things seem to be overshadowed by bad open-world design.

I ordered Madworld over Amazon, should show up some time this week so I'm finally interested in a game on my Wii which isn't Secret of Mana

Madworld is excellent.

As for NMH, give it a chance. Look deep into the story. It makes al ot of fun of the gamer mindset. Sure, the open world kind of sucks, but the rest of the game is brilliant, and well worth playing. Once you understand the themes, you may even come to look at videogames in a totally different way.

I don't like the Wii mostly for the amount of shovelware that has come out compared to the amount of actually good games. People seem to want it and buy it mostly from recognition and hearing "oh that's a great system!" rather than actually trying it out first. Everyone looks to pick up the Wii Fit because it's hard to find yet the vast majority of the people I know that have it used it once and were done. People seem more up for finding a game or two that they love for the system and sticking with those, mostly because there isn't that much to play at all.

The Wii offers a very different experience to other consoles and needs to be judged on its own. Sure, if you’re the kind of guy that buys and completes a game every other week and spends hours on-line in shooters, then the Wii is not for you.

The Wii is great for party games. All the sports games and others are simple and turns last only a few minutes, ideal for passing the controller from person to person at a party. This is the grounds on which the system should be judged, and it is here that it does very, very well.

And yeah, there’s plenty of crap games for the Wii, probably 95%. But the other platforms also have around 95% crap games, because 95% of everything is crap.

I can understand people who are hanging out for more classic Nintendo titles, though. It seemed to me when Nintendo first brought out the Wii they had the perfect platform to attract new gamers while supporting their die hard fans. Just seems that they’ve not worried about the latter as much as they could have.

I like the Wii as it keeps me connected to some of my favorite games that I grew up with. But most of my video game purchases involve the 360. But I do have Zelda and Galaxy for the Wii and love both those games.

It really is a great system for party games. Smash Bros Brawl is among my favourite games ever and Mario Kart and Raving Rabbids are always good for a spin.

I have WiiFit, but it get's boring really fast altough the technology behind it could be used for some interesting titles.

Can someone please explain what this stupid new 'hardcore' gamer idea is. Also, since it wasn't answered when I asked in the Braid thread, how could any console or genre of game 'kill' gaming in any way?

The idea of 'hardcore' and who's a bigger "relevanttopic-head" killed off metal pretty well... If folk like squig and Deery are going to fight-dance their way in here screaming that an imaginary area of gaming is at risk, I think we all deserve an explanation that goes beyond personal opinion.

For example, are people who play Halo a lot 'hardcore gamers'? No, they're hardcore Halo players if anything. It's still up to them. Halo is to me what the Wii is to its critics, except I would never say that Halo killed gaming. It helped forge a stronger 'scene,' which is a mixed blessing, mostly due to people who think that it, and games like it, are the epitome of gaming. The original reason I never liked Halo was because it was not original in the slightest, it was more like a shader demonstration with a pocketful of hoo-ah.

If there's something upsetting about a Wii owner who calls himself a gamer, you might want to get checked for racism, ignorance, colour-blindness and similar mental affectations. Hey look, a person of Chinese ancestry is calling himself an American! NOOOOO!

There's nothing 'pure' or 'hardcore' about being any sort of gamer, unless you happen to have that opinion/delusion of yourself. If any snotty punks absolutely HAVE TO make that distinction, I thank them for the compliment - I'm probably your superior in that regard. If I'm not, I still don't really care. Get over yourselves.

On the topic of the Wii, I don't mind it, but I wouldn't buy one. On the topic of consoles, I'm more upset by the X360/PS3 influence on gaming as a whole, due to made-for-console games like Fallout 3 that are relatively gak to play on a PC because they're tailored for the console market. The last gen consoles generally didn't have that effect. The Wii doesn't either. At least Wii games are fun and original for their unique control methods, which are often used very inventively. Piss-easy console shooters are rubbish on a PC though, I'll say that.

One of my favourite moments in Nintendo history was when they remade Resident Evil on the GC. It was incredibly tasteful, and I played it to death. I'm admittedly not a big fan of Nintendo's controllers since the N64 (mouse, stick or PS2-alike for me thanks!).

Well, the way you put it Artic, "hardcore gamer" does sound a bit weird.

I don't have a problem with how the Wii manages to bring videogames (no matter how simple) to so many people who never tried it before, I just wish that Nintendo would stop focusing so much on that crowd.

Anung Un Rama wrote:I just wish that Nintendo would stop focusing so much on that crowd.

I have a problem with this statement, because Nintendo's always focused on that crowd. If you go look through lists all the way back to the Famicom, you'll see there's almost more games for that crowd than any other type of game.

Can someone please explain what this stupid new 'hardcore' gamer idea is. Also, since it wasn't answered when I asked in the Braid thread, how could any console or genre of game 'kill' gaming in any way?

The idea of 'hardcore' and who's a bigger "relevanttopic-head" killed off metal pretty well... If folk like squig and Deery are going to fight-dance their way in here screaming that an imaginary area of gaming is at risk, I think we all deserve an explanation that goes beyond personal opinion.

Hence why I re named it main stream gaming in my post, thats my main concern, gaming as we know it thanks to the Wii I feel may take on alot more of this "casual" approach, like alot of companies at the moment are jumping on this band wagon because of the revenue it generates, I can see if this continues we will get more games like that and less games of the Mass Effect approach for example, instead many games will just become pick up and play games not story driven well thought out plots.

Of course the problem comes in the distinction of groups of gamers, because gaming as an academic study is only just getting off the ground we havent got the distinction between certain camps like we do in military history for example with people firmly in Napoleons camp compared to Clausewitz as an example (not a great one I know but it serves to illustrate my point), making distinctions like this are hard considering that gaming is still a new medium compared to that of Hollywood and I just feel the recent offerings are a step back than what we were getting in the late 90's early 2000's (classics like FF7, MGS, Goldeneye etc etc)

Platuan4th wrote:

Anung Un Rama wrote:I just wish that Nintendo would stop focusing so much on that crowd.

I have a problem with this statement, because Nintendo's always focused on that crowd. If you go look through lists all the way back to the Famicom, you'll see there's almost more games for that crowd than any other type of game.

What do you mean with that crowd? I meant people who enjoy classic Nintendo games like pretty much any Super Mario or Zelda title. But with stuff like Wii Sports 2 or Wii Music it seems that Nintendo is more interested in the former non-gamer public.


Edit:
A new Zelda game for the DS!!

Not the Twillight Princess sequel I was hoping for, but it's a start.

99MDeery wrote:Hence why I re named it main stream gaming in my post, thats my main concern, gaming as we know it thanks to the Wii I feel may take on alot more of this "casual" approach, like alot of companies at the moment are jumping on this band wagon because of the revenue it generates, I can see if this continues we will get more games like that and less games of the Mass Effect approach for example, instead many games will just become pick up and play games not story driven well thought out plots.

Games are driven by sales. If a new market opens for simpler games, the old market won’t disappear. As long as there are fans there will be new games with substance.

Look at it like music. Metal was once a strong genre, and people have said either grunge or hip-hop killed it. They’re wrong. Metal died because it stopped attracting new fans, because it lost relevance and become entirely insular. The only thing that can kill the more committed gamer is if companies stop producing fun games.

Of course the problem comes in the distinction of groups of gamers, because gaming as an academic study is only just getting off the ground we havent got the distinction between certain camps like we do in military history for example with people firmly in Napoleons camp compared to Clausewitz as an example (not a great one I know but it serves to illustrate my point), making distinctions like this are hard considering that gaming is still a new medium compared to that of Hollywood and I just feel the recent offerings are a step back than what we were getting in the late 90's early 2000's (classics like FF7, MGS, Goldeneye etc etc)

To the extent that academic study has value, it is not to be found in dividing fans into respective groups. He’s a casual gamer. She’s a fan of JRPGs that follow the mid-90s console style. It won’t lead anywhere useful.

Analysing types of games, and how games progressed to include the genre tropes they do, there’s value in that. Using that to create divisions in which one type of gamer is never the same as another, I’m not so sure.

Arctik_Firangi wrote:Can someone please explain what this stupid new 'hardcore' gamer idea is. Also, since it wasn't answered when I asked in the Braid thread, how could any console or genre of game 'kill' gaming in any way?

There are people who will buy a Wii to play with mates when they have a party, or who likes the idea of getting in 20 minutes of exercise in a fun format. There are also people who spend many thousands of dollars on keeping their PC absolutely up to the latest tech standards, and people who have logged hundreds upon hundreds of hours in CoD4 or WoW.

I agree that the term hardcore gamer is a bit goofy, but there are key differences between the markets. But I think, maybe I’m wrong, that your main point was that gamers assuming a more committed, ‘true’ gamer status is not going to help anything. I agree entirely with that.

Thanks seb. It was sort of a rhetorical question. I don't use Live or anything like it, but I'm certainly one of those 'hardcore gamer' types if hours and achievements have anything to do with it. It feels pretty silly to say it though.

Okay, how about Guitar Hero? Does that get under anyone's skin? I'm a musician, but I wouldn't automatically consider a player of any Guitar Hero title to be a musician. They may be music lovers, or possessed with a great sense of rhythm that was never developed through practice on a real instrument... but they're role-playing as musicians. Either way, they're definitely gamers. If you can play a game, you're a gamer. If you can enjoy it... that's probably why you learned to do it.

I mean, would anyone go up to a kid playing catch and say, 'Hey, your game sucks. Stop killing my gamer-buzz!'? Do people who operate sports stores irritate 'real gamers' as much as the Nintendo shelf?

There will always be games for those who love in-depth play, and as video gaming develops there will be, as there has always been, an ever-increasing market for 'pick-up-and-play' titles. But in the beginning that was ALL we had. And some people managed to achieve 'hardcore' status on games as trivial as Pac-Man and Space Invaders.

BTW, I don't play COD4 or WoW. Does this disqualify me from contemporary hardcore-ship?

Back on topic, Nintendo rocks, but I was a Sega fan back in the day. Was anyone else of that persuasion?

I used to like nintendo... I liked the SNES, the 64, and a number of their gameboys... I still play some of the games on various emulators. But now...? Well, I guess the change really started with the Gamecube. I mean, seriously, what the hell was with that? The DS further let down my expectations for Nintendos once-great franchise. The hardware was developing along with other consoles, but the games... Well, they never really matured. Theres only so far you can get on that 'nostalgia' factor, and after I passed that, I realized that Nintendo really didn't have much new to offer. Then the Wii. What can I say? By the time the Wii was coming out, I well and truly considered myself a 'hardcore gamer'. Appeal to the casual gaming market? Well, what about the real gamer market? What did we do to deserve Nintendos neglection? I didn't really mind, I mean, I have my 360, ya know? I don't really need a new console from Nintendo. But then people started comapring. People would enter conversations being held about systems like the 360 or PS3, and would talk about the Wii, as if they are comparable. What people fail to realize is that the Wii isn't the same. But, no, theres more news about Wii games, Wii this, Wii that, Abraham hit me with a wiffle wall bat (Reh, eh eh eh eh, neh neh neh). In the end, it comes down to our culture being insulted. Do christians like it when people hold them in similar esteems to believers of the mighty Flying Spaghetti Monster? No. It's a similar matter.

I was always a Sega fan back in the day, sure Final Fantasy, Mario and the rest were great on the Snes, but for me it was always about Sonic.

Me neither Arctik I don't play games online at all, I used to for many years play Counterstrike and Unreal Tournament, Guild Wars etc etc, now I have just withdrawn from that area as it just holds nothing for me anymore.

In respects to WoW I actually see that as a dead end in gaming evolution, no MMO is going to be like or as a good as WoW its as simple as that no matter how many others try to break the mold, WOW has managed to captivate an audience so completely you can only respect Blizzard for it, but beyond new content their isn't really much you can do with the game.

There will always be games for those who love in-depth play, and as video gaming develops there will be, as there has always been, an ever-increasing market for 'pick-up-and-play' titles. But in the beginning that was ALL we had. And some people managed to achieve 'hardcore' status on games as trivial as Pac-Man and Space Invaders.

I like this point and I agree with it, I mean you can hardly call Sonic on the Master System an in-depth game, you had a basic story and just worked your way through the levels, but by god it was awesome, however what my main concern is that whilst we will still see these "in-depth" games as we will call them for the moment, you will however see less and less, I don't think they will die out all together, but if the Wii trend continues (as well as Xbox Live Arcade which is essentially the same kind of thing with the games being produced for it) absolute gems of a game like Bioshock and Mass Effect will become rarer and rarer, its a shame really that the recession has come around as developers and producers are sticking with safe IPs and things they know that will work instead of innovating like we saw in 2007.

Seggi wrote:People would enter conversations being held about systems like the 360 or PS3, and would talk about the Wii, as if they are comparable.

Thankyou. The PS3 and 360 are comparable as they both are furthing their gaming engines and hardware into the future, eg. Blueray. Now, on the other hand the Wii has very little processing and the graphics are from 2001, it cannot be compared, its aimed at a different market and lacks the hardware to run most of the PS3/360 dual release games.

Seggi wrote:Appeal to the casual gaming market? Well, what about the real gamer market? What did we do to deserve Nintendos neglection?.

Agrred. Back in the last ages on Nintendo [64, and SNES], they had the same family style games plus serious/hardcore games, like james bond golden eye, perfect dark, etc. these game made the console huge, it was a hot topic right to the end and how do they bring this forward? they dont, they drop it all together and that hurts to know that they feel that mature gaming is not worth it.

The concepts of the hardcore gamer and casual gamer are very well understood within the games industry and have been in use for at least 10 years. They do not relate strictly to the types of games played, but to the pattern of game buying.

Hardcore gamers are more knowledgeable about games, and they buy more games.

Casual gamers buy fewer games and are more attracted to games thanks to the marketing. For example, film tie-ins usually do well with casual gamers because of the attendant publicity.

Madworld is going to kick off a renaissance of 'gamers' games on Wii.

Family-only games was never Ninty's vision for the Wii.
It was an innovative control method, and great games for all.

Satoru Iwata, president of Nintendo of Europe said recently that Ninty intends to see more 'gamers' games on the Wii, and will support developers to bring more grown up games to the platform.

Look at the N64. That had a great mix of games. I think that N want to head towards that sort of mix.

I think there's been a slight misunderstanding here.
What Killkrazy said about casual gamers makes sense, but what I meant when I said "casual" games I was more talking about stuff the endless flood of mini-game collections which come out for Wii. Games like "job Island" or "Carnival Party" or gak like that.
(funny, I just typed gak instead of that other word that it replaced by it. Guess the filter works )

I don't think that "hardcore" games ( I just keep using that term to make clear what I mean) have to be something like Bioshock.
I would consider Super Mario Galaxy to be a game for the non-casual gamer crowd for two reasons.
1) Most "casual" gamers don't realize what kind of game it is and would just as well buy a only mediocre game like Spyro or a Spongebob game.
2) Games like this are the reason I bought a Wii in the first place. I want to play "real" Nintendo titles.


Maybe Nintendo would have evolved in a very different direction if the N64 would've used discs instead of cartridges. They would've kept the Final Fantasy franchise and maybe even got franchises like Resident Evil or Metal Gear Solid and then Sony might have not evolved into the gaming giant it is today. Or was until they tried to sell the PS3 for 600 bucks

On the whole Sega issue: I really dug Sonic games back when I was a kid and actually still like the old stuff. I bought a collection for the GameCube a few years back. But unfortunatly there hasn't been a good Sonic game for years. Or as someone of IGN once said: "I have the theory that somewhere in Sega's SonicTeam there's a person who hates Sonic so much with his heart that he does everything in it's power to sabotage every new game."

@Tek: that's one awesome Avatar you got there.

First I'd like to agree about Tek's avatar.

The N64, aside from affirming Nintendo's alternate controller fetish, had a great library of replayable, challenging and most importantly, fun games. 3D gaming had barely lurched out of the primordial goo when this generation of consoles arose, including the technologically superior Sega Dreamcast and, of course, the Sony Playstation.

Nintendo, unlike the others, had the privelege of being a household name the world over, and had a good thing going, so they stuck to characters like Mario and Samus and reinvented them in incredible ways. It was all a bit hit-and-miss then, but games were incredibly original across all of the platforms, when 3D rendering and physics were still being explored within their technological limitations. Mario 64 had been originally conceived for the SNES, but became a flagship title of the spanking-new N64. It was fun for little kids, pretty much invented 3D platforming, and was quite challenging if you wanted to go in-depth and hunt those tricky stars. Zelda did similar things, and we all know what Goldeneye did. Almost every major title screamed, "we know what we're doing!", despite its smallish library.

Now I'm not saying that the other companies did't use their platforms well - the Playstation was an open field for developers and saw great titles. Sega's platform, despite being so much better than its rivals, focussed a lot on porting arcade titles (i.e. very pick-up-and-play, or a fighting game), and failed to market their product adequately. It still had several great games (that Beserk game for one!), despite every 3D incarnation of Sonic being a complete and utter blasphemy. There was, of course, rivalry between fans of different consoles, but that's just the way it is. Nintendo didn't go for optical drives, stuck to their guns of 'original' and 'playable', and pulled it off memorably well.

The next generation Gamecube was odd because it was... the same. Another well-rounded chipset, another funky controller and another inferior storage medium. I still had my fun - Metroid Prime was quite original, though maybe not a revolutionary shooter. The Resident Evil remake was awesome, Resi Evil 4 ran better than on the other platforms. Plenty of fun titles I was too old for, but it's okay for there to be different market levels. F-Zero GX was absolutely smoking - an okay pick-up, but an intense gamer's game too. Mario Sunshine was original and interesting, showing off a great engine, but wasn't as original as M64. A fair bit harder though. The PS2 and Xbox kicked its arse in the market, and that was that.

Now the Wii was marketed well. They weren't going to screw this one up, and so far they haven't. Hard drive, tick, average specs to make a budget pricetag, tick, utterly original controller, tick. Nintendo still makes great games, and a lot of us have grown out of their market, but you're missing an unimaginable number of original gaming experiences if you miss out on the Wii altogether. A LOT OF THEM are cheap and tacky, but with this Nintendo has been successful, and saved money while doing it. Cue the cartoon from the OP. The DS was great too, often just because of the touchpad. Either as an extended controller or an extended playing field, it took handhelds to where they'd never been before. I still find, at the end of the day and my usual games aside, that Nintendo has been revolutionary in creating fun games without relying solely on visual aesthetics, which is really respectable in my opinion.

The Nintendo DSi... I... I don't see the point, unfortunately. If I lived in Japan, definitely. But no. I think it will be disappointing if it doesn't come out with a bucketful of new games, which it won't. Read about it if you haven't, though, it has some interesting sounding basic features.

I've spent about an hour getting stoned, playing Nintendo tunes on my keyboard, and typing out this rant now. I have an academic paper due tomorrow as well. Just getting warmed up for the long night ahead. Would anyone else say that DakkaDakka is... addictive?

...definately.

I will buy a DSi, no doubt.
Provided there's enough 3rd party support, the platform will do well. That's really the crux of everything Ninty or Sega have ever done.

"Hardcore" gaming died at Zelda 64! Idea, let's take an established series and turn it into an incredibly generic 3d action game! Genius! Then people will play it, GoldenEye and Mario 64 and say they revolutionized gaming despite the fact that there were HUNDREDS of titles that were better at what those games were supposed to do. I think the Wii owns by the way. Anything that promotes gameplay over mainstream "hardcore" drivel (shooting games? That's it? really?), I'll take.

Seriously, how can you not like Ocarina of Time?


The DSi looks like a nice idea, but I don't really need it.
The DS is a great system on it's own, even if the games don't use touch countrols at all. I'm really looking forward to the new Mario&Luigi RPG.