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With the new Imperial Guard codex allowing for heavy support set ups that are impractical if not impossible to field in normal sized games of 40k and the recent expansion of Apocalypse only models do you think that ‘standard’ 40k’s future incarnations (within the next 5-10 years) will incorporate Apocalypse to the extent that they will become one game type with all the inherent force restrictions that would entail (rather like LotR did).

It is worth pointing out that 40k’s force restrictions have loosened recently with fewer 0-1 restrictions and that Apocalypse could be restricted without becoming as restricted as 40k, say by enforcing ‘fluffy’ alliances. Therefore the gestalt 40k/Apocalypse game would fall somewhere between the two formats in regards to how restrictive it was.

Incidentally has WotR reverted to the good/evil format or are there still specific good forces such as Rohan etc?

No. All the guard codex does is allow flexibility and a multitude of armies.

Just because it has lots of heavy support options doesn't mean GW want everyone playing Apoc.

The losing of 0-1 restrictions doesn't mean anything

Of course GW want everyone playing Apoc. The bigger the army, the more models you have to buy. The more models you buy, the more money GW makes.

APOC as a standalone game = epic

It makes more sense for GW to publish several tightly linked sets of rules in separate books, rather than put them all in one book.

40K
Cities of Death
Kill Team
40K in 40
Apocalypse
Planet Strike

And as to the WOTR question, there are about a half dozen army lists for both good and evil. You can take 25% of your army as allies from other lists on the same side of the good/evil scism.

I don't see 40k and Apoc merging anytime soon, although, I'd be delighted if Apoc were reprinted as a compiled 2nd Edition as hardbound A4 format, rather than the oversized books they're currently selling...

Just because 40k army lists allow for much more stuff than fits on the FOC, it only means GW wants to sell 3 models instead of just one.

The Apocalypse rules aren't that extensive, they just remove all the constraints. So yes, I could see GW putting Apocalypse in the back of the 6th Ed rulebook similar to Combat Patrol and Kill Team in 4th Ed. A separate book might be required for datasheets but these could start turning up in the back of Codexes.

However they would not become the same game. Apocalypse doesn't really serve infantry very well (an entire squad of Space Marines can go up in smoke from a single shot), so 40K will remain the classic game to play for smaller skirmishes (i.e. 500 - 2000 pts)

I don't see it being in GW's commercial interests to combine two £30 rulebooks into one £30 rulebook.

Kilkrazy wrote:I don't see it being in GW's commercial interests to combine two £30 rulebooks into one £30 rulebook.

Of course not. That's why the 6th ed rulebook will be £70 (Adjusted for inflation)

That'll be where I drop out.

Flashman wrote:The Apocalypse rules aren't that extensive, they just remove all the constraints.

I could see GW putting Apocalypse in the back of the 6th Ed rulebook similar to Combat Patrol and Kill Team in 4th Ed. A separate book might be required for datasheets but these could start turning up in the back of Codexes.

Apoc doesn't have a lot of rules, but there are several pages of published Strategem rules and pages upon pages of Datasheets in 2 books, plus WD, plus online. Apocalypse is becoming ripe for a compilation that brings all of this stuff together, and clarifies Scoring and Objectives in 5E going forward. Plus, extra scenarios would be nice. GW could do a lot to flesh out the Apoc framework with even more stuff.

IIRC, GW pulled Combat Patrol and Kill Team from the rulebook for 5th, likely so that the rulebook doesn't directly compete with the starter set. ANd as above, GW likes to sell the extra rulebook...

I would definitely stop playing 40K if it became apoc only. Apocolypse doesn't appeal to me at all.

If they merged Apoc and 5e you could still play 5e just by playing only 2000- points games, and ignoring the superheavies and stuff.

They are already one game. There is no need for a "merger".
Apocalypse is an expansion for 40K not a stand-alone game. They already have other expansions (CoD) and are working on more (Planetstrike).

If you read the thread, you will see that we are discussing whether the Apoc rules would be merged into the 5e rules in a single book.

I personally would not be against merging all the various rules expansions into a single book providing (a) there is no cost increase and (b) it is made clear that core 40K is the game and the add-ons are optional extras.

In 4ed, GW included rules for Kill Team, but removed it in 5ed. In addition, GW seems intent to push "expansions" to 40k (CoD, Apoc, PS, ect). I think it is rather clear where GW wants things to go.

40k rule book with the core rules, and *optional* supplements that introduce new ways to play.

Personally, I like that setup. Keep the core 40k from getting bogged down with alternative rules, and allows people to pick the games they want to invest in. In addition, I think separate rule books allows for more freedom in the depth of the rules (instead of packing it in as tight as possible in the core rulebook).

I agree.

My only reservation is the expense of the supplments, however it does allow people to pick and choose.

Not everyone plays Apocalypse or CoD.

In limited defense of GW, removing Kill Team could have been more of a decision that other content makes more sense. It was, as I remember, a handful of pages of relatively dubious value since so much of it was "and then fudge it and have fun" instead of actual rules. It could (if they were putting this kind of stuff online) be put online very easily.

I think they want to turn Kill Team into a separate release.

I thought they were gonna make a sort of advanced 40k ruleset, kinda like 2nd edition>

Apoc has too much stuff to try and stuff it in a core book and should stay the way it is.

To do otherwise is to do injustice to both apocalypse and the core rule set.

And don't worry the next edition of 40k is gonna be bare bones stripped down rules with minimal fluff and pre-colored counters and will be tournament oriented.

Gwar! wrote:I thought they were gonna make a sort of advanced 40k ruleset, kinda like 2nd edition>

They've said that, but I think it may be another GW 'wish list' item along with plastic greatcoats and Planetstrike. (The latter of which seems to at least be in the 'heavy rumor' stage.)