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I got a solution to the Eldar having a weaker selection of troop units in comparison to the other armies that is balanced and fair. Give us back our Craftworlds Codex making possible to have stronger troop units so we can make list that can cope with the likes of Nob Bikers, sternguard, and berzerker focused armies.

The likes of a Biel-Tan elite based armies, or more resilent jetbikers, or a smaller troop selection of Wraithguard would be probable.

I want my craftworld codex back. I just found my old one in storage. At first I loved my New 4th Edition Eldar Codex and thought it was fair and okay. I did not miss my Craftworld Codex or see it as necessary. However, with the advent of the Chaos, Orks, and Space Marines Codicies; I think it would be fair for GW to release a Craftworld so I can build a competitive troop based Eldar Army.

The Space Marine have separate codicies for Blood Angels and Dark Angels.

How many others feel the same that this is an adequate solution?

rcm2216 wrote:...the Eldar having a weaker selection of troop units in comparison to the other armies...

Exactly how cheap is the crack you're smoking? Do you know your dealer outside the street corner where you buy it?
Eldar with weak troops selection... I nearly spit Pepsi on my keyboard.



Ghidorah

A. Stop stealing my avatar.

B. Guardians suck. They're IG with double the cost and an assault 2 bolt pistol. Dire Avengers are OK in a Serpent, but are vulnerable elsewhere. Jetbikes are the only great Troops choice the Eldar have. Don't get started on Wraithguard.

Here here...

Wraithguard cost about $150+ to feild them as troops, and after upgrades about 400pt for total of 10 and a Warlock just to feild as a troop. Their only weapon to boot is a 12" gun, sure its nice but its 12" range sucks. They cant fit into a Wave serpent so your forced to foot walk them up there and by that time every plasma cannon and heavy weapon have shredded them down to nothing.
Dire avengers are the two turn wonder. Blade storm and charge or next trun run away. the 4+ save and 3T means that in melee they will get town up. The Exarch could take a power weapon and give them a 5++ save but thats in Melee and ive lost him to wound allocation many times before that to be of use.
Guardians arent bad when oyu have your Farseer in the back Baby sitting them. a little guide here and Fourtion there and yes, they can turn the tide of battle...but come on. and Storm Guardians have their 5I if you take the Warlock that makes them better but they still suck in Melee, 3s 2A each 4WS (with Lock) they get their little Elf but handed to them every fight. Loose too many and more likely than not you'll be falling back, never to return again.
Jetbike...there good, ill leave that one alone, there one of the best troops.
Rangers...snipers, enough said. Vrs Orks, Leave them at home. MEQ, Good but dont count of pinning. MCs, good with 2 chances to beat Armor. There best at home Obj capping, but you cant move them up field.

I am inclined to say we don't need a new dex but frankly...we have the glass cannon approach, or Mech...off that were (if you'll pardon the pun) were DOOMed.

psf3077 wrote:Wraithguard cost about $150+ to feild them as troops, and after upgrades about 400pt for total of 10 and a Warlock just to feild as a troop. Their only weapon to boot is a 12" gun, sure its nice but its 12" range sucks. They cant fit into a Wave serpent so your forced to foot walk them up there and by that time every plasma cannon and heavy weapon have shredded them down to nothing.
Dire avengers are the two turn wonder. Blade storm and charge or next trun run away. the 4+ save and 3T means that in melee they will get town up.
Guardians arent bad when oyu have your Farseer in the back Baby sitting them. a little guide here and Fourtion there and yes, they can turn the tide of battle...but come on. and Storm Guardians have their 5I if you take the Warlock that makes them better but they still suck in Melee, 3s 2A each 4WS (with Lock) they get their little Elf but handed to them every fight. Loose too many and more likely than not you'll be falling back, never to return again.
Rangers...snipers, enough said. Vrs Orks, Leave them at home. MEQ, Good but dont count of pinning. MCs, good with 2 chances to beat Armor. There best at home Obj capping, but you cant move them up field.

I am inclined to say we don't need a new dex but frankly...we have the glass cannon approach, or Mech...off that were (if you'll pardon the pun) were DOOMed.

ungulateman wrote:B. Guardians suck. They're IG with double the cost and an assault 2 bolt pistol. Dire Avengers are OK in a Serpent, but are vulnerable elsewhere. Jetbikes are the only great Troops choice the Eldar have. Don't get started on Wraithguard.

Wow. I am beside myself with the ridiculousness of the above statements.
I'm just gonna walk away from these obvious Eldar nubtards before I gat smacked with the BAN stick.




Ghidorah

Wraithguard are some of the toughest troops in the game on par with PMs.

GMMStudios wrote:Wraithguard are some of the toughest troops in the game on par with PMs.

QFT

If only we could have an assault version of them... Maybe with a pair of wraithblades?

psf3077 wrote:Wraithguard cost about $150+ to feild them as troops, and after upgrades about 400pt for total of 10 and a Warlock just to feild as a troop. Their only weapon to boot is a 12" gun, sure its nice but its 12" range sucks. They cant fit into a Wave serpent so your forced to foot walk them up there and by that time every plasma cannon and heavy weapon have shredded them down to nothing.
Dire avengers are the two turn wonder. Blade storm and charge or next trun run away. the 4+ save and 3T means that in melee they will get town up.
Guardians arent bad when oyu have your Farseer in the back Baby sitting them. a little guide here and Fourtion there and yes, they can turn the tide of battle...but come on. and Storm Guardians have their 5I if you take the Warlock that makes them better but they still suck in Melee, 3s 2A each 4WS (with Lock) they get their little Elf but handed to them every fight. Loose too many and more likely than not you'll be falling back, never to return again.
Rangers...snipers, enough said. Vrs Orks, Leave them at home. MEQ, Good but dont count of pinning. MCs, good with 2 chances to beat Armor. There best at home Obj capping, but you cant move them up field.

I am inclined to say we don't need a new dex but frankly...we have the glass cannon approach, or Mech...off that were (if you'll pardon the pun) were DOOMed.

ungulateman wrote:B. Guardians suck. They're IG with double the cost and an assault 2 bolt pistol. Dire Avengers are OK in a Serpent, but are vulnerable elsewhere. Jetbikes are the only great Troops choice the Eldar have. Don't get started on Wraithguard.

Ok dammit. I tried. I *really* tried. I just can't stop thinking about what todds you guys sound like and how little you know about Eldar.




Guardians:
1) Squad size of 10-20 + a Warlock that can give them a str5 ap4 Flamer, + to Initiative and WS, re-roll to fialed LD, or... A FIVE PLUS COVER SAVE IN THE OPEN!!!
2) Assault 2 str4 gun. Only 12" but ALWAYS 2 shots at Str4.
3) Move and shoot heavy frikkin weapon with a slowed amount of incredible guns. You want pinning? Str8? Str4 blast? How about 4 str6 shots? Perhaps a str8 that reduces high armor? No? Ok. We'll offer you a three shot, Str5, ap3 gun. How's that? Ok then, you drive a hard bargain... ANOTHER Str6 gun with 3 shots and ap5. Did we mention that you can MOVE AND SHOOT THEM?
4) Option for 10-20 meelee Guardians with two flamers or fusion guns +Warlock with another Flamer @str5 ap4 (for those playing at home, that's a possible THREE flamers in one squad), + to Initiative and WS, re-roll to any failed LD, or... A FIVE PLUS COVER SAVE IN THE OPEN!!!
5) Base 5+ save


ungulateman said: "They're IG with double the cost and an assault 2 bolt pistol."
Sheer and utter stupidity. You show me a SINGLE frikking IG troop choice that can touch those options. You add ALL the bells and whistles to a Guard squad and you cannot even come close to a guardian squad. Even comparing a single Def. Guardian to a Guardsman is a no-brainer. Far better weapon and a better stat line.



Dire Avengers:
1) Approaching in one of the best transports in the game, a ten-man strong DA squad with a Bladestorm exarch can RUIN a squad. That's 32 str4 ap5 shots in ONE turn.
2) Ballistic Skill 4.
3) On foot, DAs are great at holding objetives in decent cover. You have 6" more range to say hello to approaching enemies and then Bladestorm anything that gets near enough to really threaten. You toss a Farseer with Doom close enough to 'em and it's over.

psf3077 said: "the 4+ save and 3T means that in melee they will get town up."
Why are you putting them in meelee anyway? On the offensive, they are meant to rush in and provide close fire support for your squad of Banshees and/or Scorpions. The Exarch power that reduces enemy attacks is not an offensive power. Hence the name, "DEFEND".



Rangers:
1) Pathfinders upgrade- Option to get +2 (TWO!!!) to your coversave instead of the measly +1 all other snipers get. Think that's something to scoff at? How many Ratlings wish they had a Terminator save while camping that objective late in the game?
2) In addition to the chance at rending, as a Pathfinder, you also have a 2 in 6 chance for an AP1 shot. This gives you an outside chance at popping open lighter vehicles. A far better chance than any other sniper in the game.
3) Even if you don't take the pathfinder upgrade, you still have a 1 in 6 chance of an ap1 shot.
3) Possible pinning. I do agree here, nothing to count on, but it's the fact that it's even there at all that matters.

psf3077 said: "Vrs Orks, Leave them at home."
Whatever. Infiltrate and light up those Lootas. You may not kill 'em all, but you'll reduce their firepower drastically. Plus, you'll get that 2+ save when they return fire. Maybe pop open one of those trukks so the Boyz have to footslog it now. You have options. Ratlings don't.



Jetbikes:
1) Up to a 12 man squad + a Warlock that can give them a str5 ap4 Flamer, + to Initiative and WS, re-roll to fialed LD, or... A FIVE PLUS COVER SAVE IN THE OPEN!!!
2) Up to FOUR str6 ap5 heavy weapons. Not one other troop in the current game can claim such a feat.
3) Move 12" in the movement phase, shoot 12" (and 24" on heavies) in shooting phase, move again 6" in the Assault phase.



Wraithguard:
1) Price of models doesn't count in this discussion.
2) Toughness 6 (FRIKKEN SIX!!!) with a 3+ save.
3) a Warlock that can give them a str5 ap4 Flamer, + to Initiative and WS, re-roll to fialed LD, or... A FIVE PLUS COVER SAVE IN THE OPEN!!!
4) bs4
5) ap2 gun that ALWAYS wounds on a 2+, instant-kills on a 6, glances vehicles on a 3+, penetrates on a 5+. Which other troops have a gun like this again? Refresh my memory...



What other Codex currently in game has as many troop choices? Of those choices they do have, how many have anywhere near as many options? The problem with Eldar is not the Codex, the various slot selections, or the rules for the units. The problem is the generals not fully understanding their Codex. You two need to learn your army better.

I will take the Eldar Codex against ANY other Codex currently in the game and feel confident in my chances of a successful battle. It stands toe-to-toe with the baddest of the bad in 40k. Period.


*EDIT*
As for the original question (lol), no, we do not need a Craftworld Eldar codex. You can make most of the CW:E armies now. Iyanden with WG as Troops. Biel-Tan with DA Troops and Aspect everything else. Saim-Hann with Jetbikes as Troops... The only thing you do't have now is Black Guardians and goody special rules. With the sheer kickassery of the Codex as is, we don't need all those goofy rules anyway.
*/EDIT*



Ghidorah


Damn you guys for making me type all that.

Would it be too much for me to assert a `hurrah!' at this point. You presented the points I had thought, with greater clarity than I could muster. Eldar have an absolutely brilliant Codex. The only problem is that many of the players are the same as the fluff: a bunch of whiny little sods who you cannot feel any sympathy for! They had one of the strongest armies in fourth edition, and they still kick arse in fifth.

Ghidorah wrote:...See above...

QFT.

Btw. . . Dire avengers run into combat after a bladestorm & they hit first @ I5/6. Yes its with weak attacks but they unit has just eaten 32str4 ap 5 shots.

Conversely, for 240pts you get a tough-as-nails transport (Stones & holofields) that can unleash alot of firepower (comes with an EML) aswell as carryings 6 dire avengers. You dont get many cheaper troop-choices. Somthing hard or hardier, costs 240pts base, the landraider. I wont even mention the Rhino as while its good its not on the same par.

Pathfinders = the best sniper unit in-the-entire-game. There may be other good snipers, cheaper, more customisable but as far as snipers go.. these do exactly that and score.

Orks are fearless with mobs of 11+.

With an avatar, 3-man guardain jetbikes, 4-strong dire avenger teams & 15man hordes of guardains are all fearless.

@ Ghidorah

Are you serious? Eldar troops choices are no where near top choices.

You want to compare Wraithguard to Plaguemarines? Plaguemarines are better in combat, have feel no pain, can be transported and are a lot cheaper (pointswise). The Wraithguard have slightly better guns (worse against tanks, way better against though infantry, equal against orks/guard) and +1T. Don't tell us crap like: points don't matter. They do, unless you never play with points limits, which would be slowed.

You seem to think Dire Avengers are pure gold as well. Let's compare them to, say, Sisters of Battle. Sisters have longer range guns, can use faith, have a better armour save, can take special weapons and are cheaper (points wise). Dire Avengers have one extra shot each (only if they forfeit shooting next turn) and can charge after shooting (unless if they were just dropped by their transport, which is almost always the case). Still think they are awesome? By the way, you mention the Wave Serpent as one of the best transports in the game. Yet, you don't compare it to other transports points wise. It costs as much as 4 Rhino's. It better be a crapload better then a Rhino is to compensate for it!

Your Guardian comparison to the Guard is even worse. You can't compare one Guardian squad to one Guard squad as a Guardian squad costs twice as much. So no, Guardians don't outshoot Guard. On top of that, the Guard will have orders to use and have twice as many bodies, which means they will take twice as long to kill (as the Guardians are just as easy to kill as Guard are). Still think the Guardians are that great?

About the Rangers, why do you think the opposition will only shoot them? In 5th edition, a lot more armies are fielding close combat units, which means no cover save for the Rangers. The higher amount of cover save ignoring weaponry being fielded in 5th edition doesn't exactly help them either. So, if they are that easily killed, they must deal a great amount of damage right? No, they don't. They do well against MC's. Leave them home against anything else.

You seem to think that Jetbikes put out a crapload of damage. Why do you think this? Compared to their points cost, their damage is absolutely terrible. Then there is also the fragility to close combat and the inability to boost for objectives due to random game length in 5th edition. And if you haven't heard yet, JSJ has been near useless since 5th edition hit.


@ Razerous

Yes, Falcon's have great survivability. No, they don't have excellent shooting. The Falcon is a transport, which costs a HS slot. Fully upgraded it goes towards a Land Raider cost. I know which one of these I'd rather have.

Ghidorah wrote:
What other Codex currently in game has as many troop choices? Of those choices they do have, how many have anywhere near as many options? The problem with Eldar is not the Codex, the various slot selections, or the rules for the units. The problem is the generals not fully understanding their Codex. You two need to learn your army better.

I would point out that the smurfs have far better troops choices than Eldar but, that would be missing the point. Marines have to be troops because there are generally so few of them in a battle. Us Eldar players should feel blessed that we at least have the option of fielding large numbers of troops for a (relatively) small points cost. I agree that it would be lovely to have some more durable troops but, as Ghidorah points out, that is not how Eldar are supposed to work. I regularly field only 2 troops in games (10 wraithguard and 6 jetbikes), using one as an almost un-killable bulwark and the other as an annoyance/objective-pincher.

As an Eldar player, i rely on my elites and HS choices to put my troops in a position to make their points back (by defending a portion of the table that i've managed to wipe). This is quite contrary to the more popular armies (Marines, Orks) where the troops set up the other selections. A properly co-ordinated banshee&dragon rush on my opponents flank will annihilate it, leaving room for my troops to provide covering fire, take objectives etc...

Don't get me wrong; i wish i could field aspect warriors (besides DA's) as troops but would anyone want to play an army that consisted of 50+ Fire Dragons?

P.s. Is that how i'm supposed to spell annihilate? It looks wrong some-how....

J.Black wrote:I would point out that the smurfs have far better troops choices than Eldar but, that would be missing the point. Marines have to be troops because there are generally so few of them in a battle. Us Eldar players should feel blessed that we at least have the option of fielding large numbers of troops for a (relatively) small points cost. I agree that it would be lovely to have some more durable troops but, as Ghidorah points out, that is not how Eldar are supposed to work.

I think everyone realises the Eldar troops choices aren't supposed to have superb saves and thoughness (exception: Wraithguard). The point is though, that the Eldar troops choices are overpriced for what they do. Close combat dominance forces competitive Eldar players to take a transport for all of their troops choices. What's even worse is, that it is almost always better to leave the troops inside the transport, then to disembark and wreak havoc, because they just don't wreck enough havoc to justify their high point cost and low survivability.

The real problem though, lies in the fact that survivability has become so much more important for troops choices since 5th edition. This is a huge change for the Eldar, as their troops became overpriced due to this specific issue. Troops can't be lost in 5th edition, you need them to claim the objectives. Nobody would take troops choices which are glass pistols, they need to be glass cannons to be a competitive unit choice in the current edition.

But all the other Eldar selections are lethal if co-ordinated properly. Giving Eldar a 'glass-cannon' troop choice would surely lead to a broken list.

I'm fairly sure any other army can wipe a large unit of Guardians/DA's given a couple of turns, the idea is to not give them the chance to!. This is why we can zoom a squad of jetbikes to almost anywhere on the table near the end of the game. It may sound like a silly tactic to leave roughly 120pts worth of your army doing nothing but dodge fire for 90% of the game but i can assure you that i've managed to win alot of games with this tactic, not just because they can steal objectives, but because they give my opponent something annoyingly difficult to deal with/worry about.

I would love a craftworld codex. But only if it was contained within the next Eldar codex.

Things that really need addressing are how the Falcon was nerfed in shooting. Make it able to fire all weapons on turret as if firing only one weapon. It should also be a buyable transport for some HQs(Farseer w/warlocks).

Make it supplemental orginzations based upon various craftworld heros. This would bring back Prince Nadua of the Saim Hain, Princess Ahlanna Ariel (? Whatever her name is.) of the Iyanden, as well as introduce new hero craftworld leaders.

Other changes I'd like would start with: Taking the pheonix lords out of the overloaded HQ section and make them eat up an Elites slot.

Wraithlords come armed with a D-Cannon.

Wraithguard can be troops in six-man squads but to avoid the perils of wraithsight the spiritseer/psyker has to be a part of the unit or join the unit.( You can try to throw them into a transport but you'll have no spiritseer with them)

Warlock conceal adds +2 to coversave

Storm Guardians either get pistol with 2 shots in profile or get armed with +1 strength chainswords.

Really the Eldar do shine in the Troops department. I think that they only really need an update to 5th edition rules and pricing.

All of the above being only ideas, of course.

Edit spelling

A Wraithlord with a D-Cannon?! That's crazy talk!

Airmaniac wrote:@ Ghidorah

Are you serious? Eldar troops choices are no where near top choices.

You want to compare Wraithguard to Plaguemarines? Plaguemarines are better in combat, have feel no pain, can be transported and are a lot cheaper (pointswise). The Wraithguard have slightly better guns (worse against tanks, way better against though infantry, equal against orks/guard) and +1T. Don't tell us crap like: points don't matter. They do, unless you never play with points limits, which would be slowed.

You seem to think Dire Avengers are pure gold as well. Let's compare them to, say, Sisters of Battle. Sisters have longer range guns, can use faith, have a better armour save, can take special weapons and are cheaper (points wise). Dire Avengers have one extra shot each (only if they forfeit shooting next turn) and can charge after shooting (unless if they were just dropped by their transport, which is almost always the case). Still think they are awesome? By the way, you mention the Wave Serpent as one of the best transports in the game. Yet, you don't compare it to other transports points wise. It costs as much as 4 Rhino's. It better be a crapload better then a Rhino is to compensate for it!

Your Guardian comparison to the Guard is even worse. You can't compare one Guardian squad to one Guard squad as a Guardian squad costs twice as much. So no, Guardians don't outshoot Guard. On top of that, the Guard will have orders to use and have twice as many bodies, which means they will take twice as long to kill (as the Guardians are just as easy to kill as Guard are). Still think the Guardians are that great?

About the Rangers, why do you think the opposition will only shoot them? In 5th edition, a lot more armies are fielding close combat units, which means no cover save for the Rangers. The higher amount of cover save ignoring weaponry being fielded in 5th edition doesn't exactly help them either. So, if they are that easily killed, they must deal a great amount of damage right? No, they don't. They do well against MC's. Leave them home against anything else.

You seem to think that Jetbikes put out a crapload of damage. Why do you think this? Compared to their points cost, their damage is absolutely terrible. Then there is also the fragility to close combat and the inability to boost for objectives due to random game length in 5th edition. And if you haven't heard yet, JSJ has been near useless since 5th edition hit.


@ Razerous

Yes, Falcon's have great survivability. No, they don't have excellent shooting. The Falcon is a transport, which costs a HS slot. Fully upgraded it goes towards a Land Raider cost. I know which one of these I'd rather have.

Wraithguns, while only 12" assault 1 weapons, are the most deadly in the game. Worse against tanks.. What?

SoB - I have no idea either way.

4 Rhinos = 4 kps. 1 wave-serpent = 1kp. Wave serpent laughs at railguns (well, not at the AP1 anyway), rhinos cringe at autocannons. Rhinos crawl along and can gain a 4+ cover sv once a game. A serpent can move 24-36" every turn to get a 4+ cover save. Serpents can also act as good gunboats.. and what else can actually outshoot a fast-moving eldar tank? Sure tanks can sit there and blare away but doing that presents problems itself.

Guard have to field large numbers of troops for one troop choice, generally. We have lots more flexibility.

Pathfinder rangers: Again, best sniper unit in the game. Exactly that, snipers. I or any1 else have never mentioned otherwise. We have excellent HQ & elite choices to deal with things in CC. What else does so well against MC's? What else does much against MC's.. Leave them home otherwise. Rubbish.

Jetbikes: Eldar, nor anyone else, lost the ability to turboboost.. you simply have to cover your bases earlier. The fact that they can do a eldar jetbike assault moves gives them more manourerability where its needed. Point costs.. terrible damage.. What? Why do you keep shooting your mouth off? Keep it closed or explain your very ambitious statements.

Fully upgrading a falcon does not cost as much as a landraider. Fully upgrading it & buying a troop choice to sit inside does cost as much as a nacked landraider. I never see landraider carrying troops, they are assault vehicles for termies by and large. A falcon loaded with a 5man DA sqaud does its job very well for its points and its slot. The firepower isnt poor but obviously it isnt up to fireprism standards either. Thats why there are generally two other heavy-sup slots for fire prisms.

I think you pay a price-premium with eldar with the idea that you are intended to use them with the various force-multiplying combos, serpents, farseer, avatar, warlocks that are availible only to eldar to make them work effectively.

Edit: Annihilate < So yeah, you got it right. & no I didnt check it but I blame TA for this.

I agree with all of focusedfire's points.

The problem with the Eldar codex in 5th is that it was written for 4th and some points and abilities for units are a little skewed.

I do miss some of the flavor and color the Craftworld Codex provided; but if it is ever done, I would like to see it not be quite as "abusable" as the prior incarnation was.

J.Black wrote:A Wraithlord with a D-Cannon?! That's crazy talk!

Can't tell if thats a "serious" crazy or "cool" crazy.


Seriously, it's more logical that the other weapons as in its the big brother to the wraithcannon. It just doubles the range and increases the power a bit but is a blast weapon so it scatters. I'm not saying you have to agree or anything. I'm just asking you to contemplate the idea and then tell me what you think after the "thats crazy talk" feeling subsides.

Airmaniac wrote:Sisters have longer range guns, can use faith, have a better armour save, can take special weapons and are cheaper (points wise).

Sisters shoot at 6'', or else they do not hit anything with their flame templates. The two flamers score more wounds than Bolters at 24'', and almost every other army can outshoot them at that range, hence why damned near every Sisters player charges up to 6'' in Rhinos. People who do not play Sisters tend to over-rate Acts of Faith too. They screw Marine players over, but are less effective against many other armies; useless against the rest.

10 Dire Avengers with Bladestorm costs you 147 points; 10 Sisters with Acts of Faith (yes, we have to pay for this too), the Book and Flamer/Heavy Flamer costs 147 points. Remarkable that!

At 18'', the Dire Avengers will kill 3.33 MEQs; the Sisters will kill 0.88. Longer-range, was it?

At 6'', the Dire Avengers still kill 3.33; the Sisters 3.72, or roughly 4.5 with Divine Guidance (cannot be bothered working out that one exactly this early in the morning).

The Sisters will score slightly more kills for the same cost, but at shorter range. Things swing a little better for the Dire Avengers should the Exarch take a flashier weapon choice too. I will also note that the Dire Avengers can now assault, where they will be far more effective than the Sisters would have been; if the Sisters do not finish off all enemies within 12'' with that one round of shooting, they are royally screwed.

Well mixed bag for my opinion.

Dire Avengers are great. Between bladestorm and doom, these can gut enemy forces.

Guardians: They still have a role but they suck in 5th ed so they are a high priced way to get a heavy weapon out there.

10 guardians + cannon is 85 points... 3 bikes with cannon are 76. Guardians need to be cheaper and have some range on their catapults. 12" was fine in 3rd and 4th ed but it is now a deathwish to think you are going to shoot up the enemy and live.

Wraithguard costly but good.

Rangers/Pathfinders: Don't leave home without them but also don't get too many of them as they have to be stationary and really are there for high thoughness and high army save value targets.

Bikes mobile, good save, decent firepower.

My feeling is in 5th edition it is more the death of their Elite HTH units... Banshees, Scorpions, even Harlequins are NOT worth almost 3 ork boys. The only thing the eldar have left is mobility and firepower and Dire Avengers do fit that nicely. I just wish guardians were a little more useful in that role.

@Focusedfire: I meant crazy in a jocular way.

D-Cannons are quite possibly the most powerful weapons in the entire game, i suspect the only reason we're allowed to have them at the moment is because they're stuck on crappy artillery platforms. Having three in your army, able to move and fire, with 3 wounds each at toughness 8 strikes me as a little too powerful. Can't see GW letting us have that unless a)A big increase in points cost or b)A big nerf of the D-cannon.

Razerous wrote:Wraithguns, while only 12"; assault 1 weapons, are the most deadly in the game. Worse against tanks.. What?

If you think Wraithguns are better than Meltaguns are against tanks, sure Wraithguard are better at anti-tank then Plaguemarines.....

Razerous wrote:4 Rhinos = 4 kps. 1 wave-serpent = 1kp. Wave serpent laughs at railguns (well, not at the AP1 anyway), rhinos cringe at autocannons. Rhinos crawl along and can gain a 4+ cover sv once a game. A serpent can move 24-36" every turn to get a 4+ cover save. Serpents can also act as good gunboats.. and what else can actually outshoot a fast-moving eldar tank? Sure tanks can sit there and blare away but doing that presents problems itself.

I think an equal amount of autocannons will destroy a Wave Serpent way before they destroy 4 Rhino's. The Wave Serpent only has +1 AV. Yes you can move 24" (or even 36" if you take the overpriced Star Engines), giving you a 4+ cover save, but now your troops cant disembark and the Serpent can't shoot. This would be usefull if the Eldar had assault troops that were actually worth it, but they don't (Seer Council is the only one and they are taken on Jetbikes).

Razerous wrote:Guard have to field large numbers of troops for one troop choice, generally. We have lots more flexibility.

They are still worse then the Guardsmen are and they aren't even that competitive. Also, Guardsmen have just as much flexibility in their weapon options as Guardians do.

Razerous wrote:Pathfinder rangers: Again, best sniper unit in the game. Exactly that, snipers. I or any1 else have never mentioned otherwise. We have excellent HQ & elite choices to deal with things in CC. What else does so well against MC's? What else does much against MC's.. Leave them home otherwise. Rubbish.

Eldar don't have excellent close combat, I don't know where you get that from, but you are just sucking things out of your tumb. The only competitive Eldar close combat unit is the Seer Council on Jetbikes. To answer your question about what to bring against MC's: this very Seer Council. They are actually useful against more than just MC's, unlike the Pathfinders.

Razerous wrote:Jetbikes: Eldar, nor anyone else, lost the ability to turboboost.. you simply have to cover your bases earlier. The fact that they can do a eldar jetbike assault moves gives them more manourerability where its needed. Point costs.. terrible damage.. What? Why do you keep shooting your mouth off? Keep it closed or explain your very ambitious statements.

Do I really need to show you the math? Assuming a Guardian Jetbike unit of 12 with a Warlock with Embolden and 4 Shuriken Cannons, you will average 6 S6 hits each turn for 354 points. No the Shuriken Catapults won't fire, they are 12" range and Jetbikes get absolutely murdered in assault. One S6 hit for every 59 points isn't what I'd call impressive firepower. If I'd need S6 firepower in an Eldar army I'd take War Walkers with double scatter lasers (1 S6 hit per turn for every 15 points). Even the Wave Serpent (with double Shuriken Cannons) puts out more than twice as much S6 firepower (1 S6 hit for every 29,33 points). The Jetbikes just do terrible damage.

I'm... torn.

The standard Eldar Troop Choices are, while not overly exciting, not 'bad'. But, to put them in a position to be more mobile, more survivable, or just plain tougher, is very costly.

Wave Serpents are still exceptionally pricey points-wise.
Dire Avengers are the obvious option to field with those transports given their extended range and generally superior capacity to put wounds on targets.

Rangers/Pathfinders have some merit, but can be shot to hell and back like anything else and are really only of benefit in cover, making their utility very situational in terms of battlefield impact with Mechanized forces being all the rage.

Defenders are... well... super glorified heavy weapon teams. Their standard range is pitiful, their potential for heavy weapons a joke, and are all too easily blasted into kibble.

Jetbikes seem to be the favored troop choice just because they're a lil tougher, enjoy a better armor save, and can haul-ass when need be. Although this hurts the pocketbook more than anything else, and they kind of stand out.

Personally, I don't see how shifting the other Aspect Warriors to 'Troops' status really solves much, as they are only marginally more likely to survive, and run into the exact same problems as the current troop choices.

Specifically, these weaknesses are Low T, limited range (in nearly all cases), limited capacity for superior armor save (3's are hard to come by), etc. It's all too easy to get wounds on Eldar units with the exception of Wraithguard and Wraithlords. Personally, let Wraithguard count as Troops and call it a day, not that these guys can do that much on the battlefield until they're already right on top of the target.

J.Black wrote:@Focusedfire: I meant crazy in a jocular way.

D-Cannons are quite possibly the most powerful weapons in the entire game, i suspect the only reason we're allowed to have them at the moment is because they're stuck on crappy artillery platforms. Having three in your army, able to move and fire, with 3 wounds each at toughness 8 strikes me as a little too powerful. Can't see GW letting us have that unless a)A big increase in points cost or b)A big nerf of the D-cannon.

The warp weapons are one of the true uniquely Eldar weapons out there. And as powerful as wraithcannon and D-cannon are now, they are slightly toned down from their original concept from 2d ed. I used to have 2-3 wraithlords armed with D-cannon back in 2d, and they were powerful, but not egregiously so.

And that is kind of the point: D-cannon are historically within the game one of the traditional weapons carried by wraithlords. I imagine it was dropped for space issues on the sprue that was produced for the plastic kit. However, I would not mind rules and a model for it from Forgeworld.

Do some mathhammer on 3 units versus 30 orks...

10 Striking Scorpions - Exarch with Biting blade
10 Howling Banshees- Exarch with Glaive
10 Dire Avengers - Exarch with ss and PW and Bladestorm and Defend

The farseer has doomed the target. For equality, all will shoot and then charge but with 18" standoff the DAs would normally not do it.

SS: 10 shots, 7 hit, 6 wound probably 5 kill.
40 attacks, 20 hit, 15 wound about 13 kills.

12 ork shootas 24 attacks, 12 hit, 8 wound, 3 dead SS. Nob with PK kills maybe 2 more.

Banshees: 5 kills in fire phase.
30 attacks,15 hit, 8 kill
16 orks 32 attacks, 16 hit, 10 wound, 5 kills. 2 more from the nob.

10 Dire Avengers:
27 shots: 18 hit, `14 wounds, 12 kills
18 attacks, 9 hit, 5 wounds, 5 kills
3 attacks PW, 2 hit, 1 kill

11 orks, 11 attacks, 6 hit, 4 wound, 2kills
Nob 2 attacks, 1 hits, 1 kill

202 for the 10 scorpions. 18 orks for 5 scorpions
192 for the 10 banshees. 13 orks for 7 banshees
177 for the 10 avengers. 18 orks for 3 avengers

Tell me again why I want banshees or scorpions as troops?

I used to run D-cannon Dreadnoughts back in 2ed too, I think that was when they had an armour value rather than a toughness making them easier to take down. The couple of times i've taken D-cannon platforms in 5ed they were blasted back to the craftworld immediately.

It's not that i don't want to be able to put one on a Wraithlord, and i agree that it fits well with the Eldar fluff. I just can't see GW allowing it.

Eldar could use a Craftworld Codex but I would rather see energy put into Dark Eldar, Necrons, INQUISITION, etc, etc. At least in the short to medium term. Space Wolves.

But I would not be surprised if Eldar (and Tyranids?) got/ get a slight redo/ bump when say 7th edition rolls around.

Unlike Space Marines there is not really any demand for Craftworld specific sprues. The Aspect Warriors are already unique and you can still get those funky Black Guardian heads. Maybe a plastic Ranger/ Pathfinder kit with some extra bits for converting Guardians/ Warlocks. But any Craftworld can take Rangers of course.

@Eldanar-

Exactly, The D-cannon is a truly unique Eldar weapon and they have enough platforms firing Bright Lances, EML, Star Cannons, Scatter Lasers, and Shuriken Cannons.
Also, with how much 2nd ed goodness that seems to be coming back its not too unrealistic to ask for this back. I figure the price would be about 140-ish pts if you took the current Wraithlord and gave him the D-Cannon at going 5th ed prices.

Now heres the sick part,......I want them as a 0-1 HS choice but in squads of 1-2. Their secondary weapons systems will be based off of the shooting aspect that their spirit came from(Dire avengers for Shuricannon and Dark Reapers for Reaper Launcher/EML).
Then a CC specialized variant(Eldar are "the" specialist army) with weapons and abilities based off of the Warrior aspect that the spirit came from(Banshees for better initiative, Scorpions for extra attack, and Fire dragon for Heavy Flamer/FirePike). They would be a 0-1 elite choice coming as a squad of 1-2.

You guys don't even want to know about the Wraithlord/Vyper JetLord I'm gonna try to play with making sometime later this year.


@Airmaniac-

Remember that the Eldar are coming off of two back to back nerfings. They were toned way down for 4th ed and were still romping and stomping. 5th ed comes and Nerfs them again and they are still winning GTs. They are a good army, currently. Its just that the days of 10 different builds to smite your opponents with have past.


Its the title of the thread thats working against you. Comparitively the Eldar have one of the best and most varied troop selections out there. It seem the problem is your comparing troop to troop as oppossed to troop to intended target/function.

The Eldar guardian scoring units may seem weak when compared to other armies but evens out when you look at intended function and work well if used properly(Hints: Positioning , equipment, speed, target selection).

Using the "weakest" troop, the guardians, they do really well with an EML.
Storms still do a decent job with an enhance warlock.
The amount of accurate firepower DAs can throw out at an effective range of 24" is better than any other standard troop.
Only unit superior to Jetbike as a troop is the Nob Biker troop but then they have different functions and vastly different pts costs.

Honestly, I find it really hard to believe your dissing the Jetbikes. Their strength isn't in fire power, its in mobile "durable" ranged firepower.
Here are some tactical hints, Veiw the non-catapult bikes as extra wounds for the shuricannons. Remember thet the bikes can JSJ(Trust me its not dead) to dance at a 30 " distance.
How many 30"plus shots do any of the armies have?
How many of those don't allow the 3+ armorsave?
How many of those ar going to get past the fortuneseer joined to the unit?

I just finished a game with our local tourney champ where 700 points of my army didn't come on until 4th turn.
The only things he had to shoot at were my tanks(out of range), Vypers(cheap cover for bikes), Wave serps(out of range), and my jetbikes. Over half of the jetbikes were still there at the top of 4th turn and had taken out two squadrons of landspeeders.
This is why you shouldn't just use mathhammer for shots fired but also look at how much of what it takes to get rid of something and the overall synergy of the build.


Now, having defended the army with what I feel has the best overall troop selection I will address what I feel are the arising problems with that army. I recognize that each passing 5th ed codex release is bringing the Eldar closer to needing an update. It's why I started the "How would you update the Eldar for 5th ed?" thread.


First, Wave seprents will either drop in price by about 10pts, gain an extra amout of durability, or get the same ability as the Valk to drop troops off as it moves 24".

Second, Eldar have fantastic HtH but 5th has exploited the Glass part of the hammer by not letting the units consolidate into HtH. Letting them drop from the Serps would help but maybe allowing them to consolidate back into the transport after HtH would, instead, be better.

Third, Maybe make all shuricats 18" range but then make gaurdians 10pts ea.

Fourth, Pls refer to my first post in this thread.

J.Black wrote:It's not that i don't want to be able to put one on a Wraithlord, and i agree that it fits well with the Eldar fluff. I just can't see GW allowing it.

Why not? How is it significantly more powerful than a demolisher cannon, which GW likes to put on AV 14 vehicles? In 5th ed, vehicles, while being more vulnerable to AP1 weapons than a wraithlord, are not really significantly less durable than a wraithlord overall. Guess which is going to die faster to an autocannon between a LR demolisher and a Wraithlord...