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My point was that standing alone the Eldar are good, but stand them next to the counterpart from other Armys then they fall shot or overpriced.

Guys

Dont get so wrapped up in it, you all getting hot under the collar over the 40k eqivilent of ballet dancers

runs off to hide shouting random insults at the entire eldar player base over his shoulder

psf3077 wrote:My point was that standing alone the Eldar are good, but stand them next to the counterpart from other Armys then they fall shot or overpriced.

I think this is the problem right here. As the new books have come out, and most units just keep getting cheaper, the Eldar are becoming slowly obsolete, outside of one powerbuild (jetseer council).

I was playing an SM bike army yesterday, and my army, which includes "cheap" troops options such as a squad of storm guardians, and a squad of dire avengers, only outnumbered his army by about 3 models... and he had the same number of tanks and light vehicles as I had too... two 130+ point wave serpents, vs. two 85 point predators, and three twin-eml warwalkers, vs. 3 typhoon missile launcher/heavy bolter land speeders. The speeders, while being slightly more expensive, also had significantly more firepower for their cost because of BS4 and the heavy bolters.

I think there is more than one build that is usable by Eldar. The only problem is that some of the more effective builds, but less common, tend to be very $$$ prohibitive.

10 wraithguard will run over $150.

6 jetbikes, IIRC, are around $120.

That is pretty expensive for one unit when you can buy a box of dire avengers for $25.

So, while Eldar do have some good choices for different styles of armies, they simply are extremely pricey.

I Know this is a serious thread but i could not resist

As a former skittles Eldar Biel-Tan player, Dire Avengers as Troops doesn't really do much for me.

I think Jetbikes are good, fast, tough Troops.

Rangers - immobile, and insta-die in HtH.

Guardians - overpriced for the Heavy weapons platform.

Wraithguard - ridiculously expensive in points and dollars.

I'd like to see Scorps & Banshees as Troops, along with Fire Dragons.

The eldar suffer because much of their units need backup from others, but the lack of range and the need to have units on each objective means they cannot support each other.

Yeah, those DA can bladestorm, but they are heavy bolter fodder unless they are in a serpent. Same with most aspects and guardians.

The 12 range on guardians makes them a missile launcher with lots of wounds, nothing more. With fleet and cover nullifying weapons becoming common, they will have to leave their objective or cover to ensure a round of shooting with their catapults.

Storm guardians are equivalent to guard in CC. 2 ws3 s3 attacks each. There is a reason no one uses them to assault, and instead they are a poor man's fire dragons, and they need a transport that is 2x the units cost.

The eldar really pay though the nose for speed, and with every other army getting "run" and cheaper transports that speed advantage is worn down. Our expensive aspects cannot walk, they need speed, but that makes it a 400 pt unit once you have transports and an exarch.

Which would you rather have, 16 scorpions, exarch, and a wave serpent or two squads of 30 boys with nobs and a PK?

willydstyle wrote:
I think this is the problem right here. As the new books have come out, and most units just keep getting cheaper, the Eldar are becoming slowly obsolete, outside of one powerbuild (jetseer council).

QFT

Eldar don't need any new units honestly, they just need a rules update and some more plastic minis (aspect warriors of all kinds, wraithguard, warlocks and farseer - for easier jetbike conversions...etc).

Durandal also has a vaild point - I have always viewed eldar as a experienced generals army (not a beginners army), because they really rely on synergy of their units. You doom a squad, bladestorm it then assult the leftovers. You use your pathfinders and fire dragons to eat walkers and MC's...but i digress. This is what really forces eldars players hands. Alone guardians can't stand toe to toe with other troops but give them their support aspects and they can be golden.

Give them a rules tweak, readjust points costs on some units (and our wallets) and they will still do fine. Heck they still give me enough problems in 5th as is...

"Eldar synergy."

I keep seeing this phrase over and over. You know, if you take any 40K army and have 3 units attack one unit they will probably wreck that target. In what way is it perfectly acceptable that this is the only way for Eldar to work? Shouldn't an Eldar hand to hand squad be able to function against an equal opponent if the opponent isn't doomed?

So many of the complaints about Eldar fall into the area of "OMG that guy Doomed my unit, shot them with avengers, then ran them over with banshees. OMG Banshees are broken. Eldar are cheesy."

Now assume that was a 300 pt unit lost. Let's see what it took to do it. Farseer (about 100 pts), Dire avengers (usually around 150 pts), and Banshees (about 160). That's 410 pts of stuff, quite possibly about 50-70 points more. Still, it takes this many points of Eldar concentrated in a single area to achieve the desired results.

As editions have gone on, Eldar have lost more and more mobility. The beginning of 3rd edition was great. We got fleet, and we could assault out of transports (without access points).

Then they added the rules for access points. Suddenly Wave Serpents were death traps, and getting out of a wave serpent required either turning the armor 10 rear to the enemy or running the 7" length of the wave serpent.

Enter 4th edition. Suddenly, we can't assault out of our transports at all (unless they stand still). Now you have to drive right up to the enemy (remember that one access point) and sit there for a turn before getting out. Or you get out somewhere away from the enemy and try to assault next turn. This is a losing proposition for the fragile "fast" army.

Now we have 5th edition. Not much has changed to the ability to get out of a transport. Blocked exits aren't instant death, but still pretty close. In addition, the loss of the skimmers moving fast rule has made transports more fragile once again. Adding further to this is the ability of other armies to redeploy just as quickly via running or their own fast skimmers (for the imperial guard? Seriously?) and the eldar cannot achieve the same local superiority they once did. The superiority of numbers needed for that mythical "synergy".

The result has not been totally crippling, but it has left us with a few effective builds that almost always are hated by other players.

So how do we fix this? Lower a few points, or increase some effectiveness of units (looking at you guardians). Do SOMETHING to give the Eldar some mobility edge once again whether it's a bonus to fleet rolls, army wide fleet (if terminators can be taught to fleet why not scorpions?), or the ability to get out of transports that have gone 24" and assault if they've gone 12", it doesn't matter, but there needs to be something done.

Dude, Eldar are fine. Yeah, Wraithguard are expensive in points/cash as are jetbikes, but Eldar don't need a new 'dex because they're troop choices aren't the best.

Dire avengers, with 2 shots minimum, can totally whittle down Ork Boyz

Guardians are some of the only troops choices with psychic powers AND Heavy weapons teams.

Jetbikes are an awesome mobile firebase

and Wraithguard wound on 2+. yeah, Plague Marines are T5, but who cares? I'm wounding on a 2+ no matter what, (I do agree with you though, airmaniac)

Would it make sense to have the shuri-catapult have option to be either assault 3 with 12" range or heavy 2 with 24" range? Sort of like DH incinerator.

What also kills Eldar is the only defensive weapons that can fire being strength 4 on tanks. That cuts down the amount of firepower Eldar tanks and transports throw out each turn unless tanks stay stationary. If IG can have tanks firing everything, surely the Eldar can, too.

I've been running 3 squads of 12 guardians + a warlock with embolden. Gave them all BL's.

By holding them in reserves (2+ to come in on turn 2 with two autarchs) I get to move on the board and fire on the same turn. DEcent Alpha strike on Vehicles/Dreads. Coming in on the long edge means I get the side AV unless the target is hugging a piece of terrain. Three shots that can actually take out a Land Raider (str 8 vs Av 12) from 36" instead of the 6" most other units need. Because I'm coming in from reserves I can usually mitigate what will be shooting at me. In later turns I can slide the BL gunners around to expose more hull, if I need to. The majority of the rest of the unit remains in cover.

That is pretty huge, to me. Other heavy infantry don't get that advantage and have to wait another turn to fire if they come on from reserves or want to get rid of a vehicles cover save.

Thirteen bodies with Embolden means I can still take hits close to my edge and they won't flee. Also means enough bodies to survive a torrent of fire.

<160 points for a unit that can move and shoot a heavy weapon coming off the edge, take some shooting without taking off (going to ground if they need to), can reasonably stop a tank shock (and if it doesn't, reasonably knock it out in the following turn), and hold an objective on top of all that. Not too shabby and certainly seems unique enough, for a basic troop type.

Would I field them solely? Of course not, but they are pretty damn decent for a back court unit that can't be ignored.

As for the OP. The eldar should have a Craftworld Codex when the rest of the codies have been updated and are all equally playable. Don't bother "fixing" one of the ones that actually works.

Kyrolon wrote:Enter 4th edition. Suddenly, we can't assault out of our transports at all (unless they stand still). Now you have to drive right up to the enemy (remember that one access point) and sit there for a turn before getting out. Or you get out somewhere away from the enemy and try to assault next turn. This is a losing proposition for the fragile "fast" army.

Now we have 5th edition. Not much has changed to the ability to get out of a transport. Blocked exits aren't instant death, but still pretty close. In addition, the loss of the skimmers moving fast rule has made transports more fragile once again. Adding further to this is the ability of other armies to redeploy just as quickly via running or their own fast skimmers (for the imperial guard? Seriously?) and the eldar cannot achieve the same local superiority they once did. The superiority of numbers needed for that mythical "synergy".

I'd like to reinforce this idea. People have no idea just how hampering only having one access point, and only having it on the rear of the tank is to trying to use waveserpents effectively as transports.

Waveserpents also have very low firepower for their points: compare to a vendetta that can "disembark" troops while moving flat-out, and has three twin-linked lascannon for a slightly lower price than a brightlance waveserpent with no other upgrades.

Sure the wave field is nice, but does not protect a Waveserpent any more than any other AV12 vehicle against things like lootas and rocket launchers. Compared to Tau vehicles that get the much, much more impressive "4+ cover against anything outside 12"" upgrade... it just doesn't compare.

I love playing my Eldar, and I even win semi-consistently with them, but I feel like if my opponent is a good player, with a good list I'm automatically at a disadvantage because I'm simply paying too many points for all of my units compared to any modern codex.

Cryonicleech wrote:Dude, Eldar are fine. Yeah, Wraithguard are expensive in points/cash as are jetbikes, but Eldar don't need a new 'dex because they're troop choices aren't the best.

Dire avengers, with 2 shots minimum, can totally whittle down Ork Boyz

Guardians are some of the only troops choices with psychic powers AND Heavy weapons teams.

Jetbikes are an awesome mobile firebase

and Wraithguard wound on 2+. yeah, Plague Marines are T5, but who cares? I'm wounding on a 2+ no matter what, (I do agree with you though, airmaniac)

There are several problems with your analysis:

First, this edition of the game is a "Troop intensive" edition. It is now very difficult to win certain scenarios without Troops, so Troops must be taken. And if they are sub-par or overcosted, then you are wasting points and/or selections.

A squad of 30 Orks with shootas will absolutely chew a unit of Dire Avengers up. Yes, the DA's will bloody the Ork players nose, but the Orks will kill all of the DA's while taking anywhere from 12-15 casualties in return. A good trade off for the Orks.

For Defenders, the only power worth taking with a support weapon is Embolden. And Defenders sitting in cover and shooting are not going to win many games.

Jetbikes are good at plinking opponents, but that is all they really can do, other than moving really fast and grabbing objectives...assuming they are still around on Turn 5 on.

Wraithguard are extremely nasty. This is why people either run from them or tarpit them ASAP. WG are not going to chase anyone down; and if they get tarpitted they must rely on another unit to sweep the tarpit away or the opponent will usually move up a dreadnought, etc., and kill all the WG.

The Eldar codex was written to be a very strong and effective 4th ed. codex. But the rules, and in many cases, the newer 5th ed codecies have simply outpaced them. No one is saying the codex is bad. Rather they are saying certain parts and choices for it are subpar, once again forcing the Eldar to play in very specific and predictable manners.

There was a reason why almost every successful Eldar army was a Craftworld army prior to the release of the 4th ed. codex: the 3d ed. codex had simply been made redundant by newer books for other armies. Craftworld was kind of a patch for this.

I cannot think of another army that has as many different choices and units as Eldar; but sadly, there are more unused choices and units than most armies even have to begin with.

Eldanar wrote:

A squad of 30 Orks with shootas will absolutely chew a unit of Dire Avengers up. Yes, the DA's will bloody the Ork players nose, but the Orks will kill all of the DA's while taking anywhere from 12-15 casualties in return. A good trade off for the Orks.

A fair enough statement, but a couple of problems:

-point cost. You're comparing a 150+ point unit (9 DA w/exarch - Bladestorm/dual SC) to a 210 point unit (29 Shootas with 3 big shootas and a Nob with Banner pole, more with PK that everyone grabs). We're looking at ten fewer shootas if we're going to talk about units being over costed for our example.

- a different match up, using the same units would turn out different. Six units of DA and six Shootas vs each other will favour the DA's. A unit of shootas has the same footprint as three unit of DA's. Because of their size it is really hard to bring *all* of the shooting from one Ork unit to bear on a unit, let alone two+ units of orks. DA's don't have the same problem and it is easier to get two or three squads firing at one ork unit especially because each firing unit only needs to be able to target one of the thirty where as the Orks need to all of their guys to target one of ten to bring full fire to bear. Physically, it is just so much easier to get two or three units of DA's firing on an Ork unit than it is to do the reverse. Big blocks of Orks are their own worst enemy and the DA's can focus fire on the two or three units in range as there probably won't be any meaningful fire from the others until two more turn have passed.

Two units of DA firing equals 12-13 dead orks. Blading 17-18. If Orks squads are 150+ points both cases would drop the three units to 2-8 Orks, effectively neutered.

Of course this assumes the Avengers get to fire first and doesn't take in consideration any of the other factor theory hammer doesn't. I'm not saying you example is wrong, but I am saying I can come up with a sandbox using the same units that points to a very different result.

Eldanar wrote:
For Defenders, the only power worth taking with a support weapon is Embolden. And Defenders sitting in cover and shooting are not going to win many games.

if you kill his scoring units or contest his scoring unit and have this one unit left you win. A unit that gets to reroll LD tests and can go to ground in cover and get a 3+ rerollable cover save equals a very resilient troop choice for not a lot of points.


Anyhow, all the best,

kh

Eldanar wrote:I think there is more than one build that is usable by Eldar. The only problem is that some of the more effective builds, but less common, tend to be very $$$ prohibitive.

10 wraithguard will run over $150.

6 jetbikes, IIRC, are around $120.

That is pretty expensive for one unit when you can buy a box of dire avengers for $25.

So, while Eldar do have some good choices for different styles of armies, they simply are extremely pricey.

Pretty sure jetbikes aren't 20$ a piece, unless you americans are paying through the nose for your warhams :O 12 jetbikes would be something like that..

Basic Eldar Jetbikes are $15, Shuricannon Jetbikes are $20 (!!!), so 6 Jetbikes will "only" be $100, not $120 USD.

Jetbikes are a rip-off.

Lol and I feel like Warhammer is expensive here..

3x Shuricannon jetbikes: 42$~
9x Jetbikes: 90$~

Granted, this is buying them online, so it's a lil cheaper. Even retail price Jetbikes are "only" 12$ and Shrieker bikes 17~

kid_happy wrote:

Eldanar wrote:

A squad of 30 Orks with shootas will absolutely chew a unit of Dire Avengers up. Yes, the DA's will bloody the Ork players nose, but the Orks will kill all of the DA's while taking anywhere from 12-15 casualties in return. A good trade off for the Orks.

A fair enough statement, but a couple of problems:

-point cost. You're comparing a 150+ point unit (9 DA w/exarch - Bladestorm/dual SC) to a 210 point unit (29 Shootas with 3 big shootas and a Nob with Banner pole, more with PK that everyone grabs). We're looking at ten fewer shootas if we're going to talk about units being over costed for our example.

Wasn't really trying to compare points costs (which I find to be somewhat problematical as it usuaally entails somewhat unrealistic assumptions), but rather what you might realistically see on the table; and it was in response to a post saying DA's could cut up Orks.

Once you begin comparing Ork boyz to DA's (or anything else for that matter) there really is no comparison. With the big shootas the Orks are going to always force the DA's to come to them. In which case the DA's are almost always going to lose.

Don't get me wrong, I love the DA's; but they are a second tier unit when compared to units like Ork Boyz.

- a different match up, using the same units would turn out different. Six units of DA and six Shootas vs each other will favour the DA's. A unit of shootas has the same footprint as three unit of DA's. Because of their size it is really hard to bring *all* of the shooting from one Ork unit to bear on a unit, let alone two+ units of orks. DA's don't have the same problem and it is easier to get two or three squads firing at one ork unit especially because each firing unit only needs to be able to target one of the thirty where as the Orks need to all of their guys to target one of ten to bring full fire to bear. Physically, it is just so much easier to get two or three units of DA's firing on an Ork unit than it is to do the reverse. Big blocks of Orks are their own worst enemy and the DA's can focus fire on the two or three units in range as there probably won't be any meaningful fire from the others until two more turn have passed.

Two units of DA firing equals 12-13 dead orks. Blading 17-18. If Orks squads are 150+ points both cases would drop the three units to 2-8 Orks, effectively neutered.

Of course this assumes the Avengers get to fire first and doesn't take in consideration any of the other factor theory hammer doesn't. I'm not saying you example is wrong, but I am saying I can come up with a sandbox using the same units that points to a very different result.

I'm not sure I would agree with this statement at all. Even if you try to concentrate fire and go after 1-2 Shoota units at a time, this means he is free to move the other units unmolested, in which case they will be able to get shots from a flank, etc. Plus, they only have to sit back and whittle the DA's down from range with bog shootas or rokkits before the DA's can even get in shooting range. And this also makes huge assumptions that the Orks are not getting some sort of cover, which helps them exponentially more. And the Ork player will not care if he fires through cover since the DA's will get their same saves. Both of these units have the same range guns, so if one is in range the other more than likely will be as well.

As for a larger footprint, yes and no. You are assuming that the two units are mirroring one another's deployment, spacing, etc., and that usually is not the case. 30 Orks can pack inot a small little nut if they so choose and be able to bring to bear as many guns as they need.

If you think Orks can't move up and get shots off of DA's, then you really are only playing "Theoryhammer." I've played against Orks enough to know that they can shoot me off the table with relative ease (usually my 5-6 squads versus their 4 squads, or 3 squads versus 2, etc., so points were not too much of a factor as they were fairly even) if my DA's are unsupported.

Eldanar wrote:
For Defenders, the only power worth taking with a support weapon is Embolden. And Defenders sitting in cover and shooting are not going to win many games.

if you kill his scoring units or contest his scoring unit and have this one unit left you win. A unit that gets to reroll LD tests and can go to ground in cover and get a 3+ rerollable cover save equals a very resilient troop choice for not a lot of points.

Once again, this sounds nice in theory, but when someone drops down next to you and heavy flamers the crap out of you, there is not a whole lot the Defenders can do. And/or if you spend the whole game going to ground, your opponent will advance on you and kill you in CC. Even if you dont, they will just come at with you in a rhino, etc., and then kill you in CC.

If all you want is an objective holder, you are much better off with rangers or pathfinders which are going to be cheaper and more resilient.

No, Guardians are only useful as large fodder squads (which is completely against their fluff) or as one hit wonders jumping out of wave serpents with 2 x flamers/fusion guns and a warlock with destructor. Neither option is cheap in points.

Anyhow, all the best,

kh

And to you as well.

Sorry, away from the computer for a few days. Busy IRL. You have some very good points (cover for the orks for example and the bits about the big shootas) and I am no way looking to be a pain but there are a couple of points I don't see....

Eldanar wrote:
As for a larger footprint, yes and no. You are assuming that the two units are mirroring one another's deployment, spacing, etc., and that usually is not the case. 30 Orks can pack into a small little nut if they so choose and be able to bring to bear as many guns as they need.

Given the popularity of Fire Prisms I've stopped clumping my Orks together. I've lost both Stormboys and 'Ard Boys and have come to the conclusion that it is better to spread the guys out, take the hits, than lose a handful to one pie plate. I'll only start clumping the horde when all the templates/blasts are gone. Below is a picture of Redbeard's army at Adepticon. This is probably a fairly standard way to fan out Orks to minimize blast/template casualties.




If an eldar player comes in hard on side with *all* his units (red arrow), it is impossible for the orks to effectively shoot all their units. The shootas only have a 24" threat radius, a third of the board length. That means two thirds of the board can't shoot a majority of their weapons if you deploy at one end or the other. The big shootas can hit but really we're looking at three hits per unit and after wounds and armour probably one or two. If those units would rather go for those wounds over running, so be it.

this was the crux of my argument: when comparing large units of DA's vs horde Orks it is easier for the DA's to focus all their units on one side and harder for those Orks to reshift. In the above picture how many turns does it take the Orks on the left to get more than a couple of models in range if they have an average move/run of 9.5"?

Eldanar wrote:
If you think Orks can't move up and get shots off of DA's, then you really are only playing "Theoryhammer." I've played against Orks enough to know that they can shoot me off the table with relative ease (usually my 5-6 squads versus their 4 squads, or 3 squads versus 2, etc., so points were not too much of a factor as they were fairly even) if my DA's are unsupported.

Well, I do think just about everything relating to 40k tactics on the internet is Theroyhammer. Like you said there are just too many factors to take any discussion too seriously. I also did state that my conclusion were only based on the Eldar getting first shots off. The Orks can just as easily get the first cracks off and that would change things..

Eldanar wrote:
For Defenders, the only power worth taking with a support weapon is Embolden. And Defenders sitting in cover and shooting are not going to win many games.

if you kill his scoring units or contest his scoring unit and have this one unit left you win. A unit that gets to reroll LD tests and can go to ground in cover and get a 3+ rerollable cover save equals a very resilient troop choice for not a lot of points.

Eldanar wrote:
Once again, this sounds nice in theory, but when someone drops down next to you and heavy flamers the crap out of you, there is not a whole lot the Defenders can do. And/or if you spend the whole game going to ground, your opponent will advance on you and kill you in CC. Even if you dont, they will just come at with you in a rhino, etc., and then kill you in CC.

If all you want is an objective holder, you are much better off with rangers or pathfinders which are going to be cheaper and more resilient.

I can't think of any reason Pathfinders are any better at taking the heavy flamer hits than a unit of defenders with twice as many wounds and rerollable LD. This is exactly why I switched to guardians with embolden. Jungle fighters appear out of nowhere with a flamer, torch half the unit and than chop the remain three guys up (if they don't flee off the board). Yes, they can take a lot of shots when in cover but flamers and cc crushes them. The same weaknesses you say the guardians have.

Six pathfinders are the same price as 12 guardians w/brightlance + a warlock with embolden and spear. I run three of the squads which is enough to reasonably take out transports (that I can move and shoot the BL's makes that even better). In a 1750 game that's three units with decent AT that can score. The opponent is usually wrapped up in dealing with the elite, hq, and fast attack.


all the best,

kh

ghidora wrote:


Ok dammit. I tried. I *really* tried. I just can't stop thinking about what todds you guys sound like and how little you know about Eldar.




Guardians:
3) Move and shoot heavy frikkin weapon with a slowed amount of incredible guns. You want pinning? Str8? Str4 blast? How about 4 str6 shots? Perhaps a str8 that reduces high armor? No? Ok. We'll offer you a three shot, Str5, ap3 gun. How's that? Ok then, you drive a hard bargain... ANOTHER Str6 gun with 3 shots and ap5. Did we mention that you can MOVE AND SHOOT THEM?




move AND shoot ? i can't find this in the codex . could you tell me at which page this is described ?
thank you

I'd rather have twice the bodies and twice the heavy weapons, plus special weapons for the same price as one guardian squad (RE: new guard).

Plus on fragile troops, lasguns are more valuable than 12" shuriken catapults.

You want to play guard then play guard. Just don't try to turn the Eldar into the Guard. Its bad enough that The Guard turned into a higher body count version of the Eldar in their new Codex.

You'll be happy with the Imperial Eldar. IE gives you the body count of the old IG with battlepsyker squads and 12 armored fast skimmers.

omar wrote:

move AND shoot ? i can't find this in the codex . could you tell me at which page this is described ?
thank you

pg 39. First line of the Guardian Heavy Weapon Platform:

"A heavy weapon mounted on a weapon platform counts as an assault weapon in a respects". This means you can move and shoot and even assault if the heavy (now assault) weapon has fired.

Also, besides the move and shoot aspect of guardian heavy weapons they have the bonus of being able to use guys on either side of the squad fire the weapon. Nice bonus when someone is trying to hide side or rear armour or go for 50% cover on a vehicle. If you can't get the angle with one guy after moving you probably can with the other.

Except for MC, Vehicles, slow and purposeful units I don't know of many others that can do that.

harlequin jetbikes

You raised some good points, kid_happy, and I don't know if I can necessarily disagree with you. However, I have found in my limited experience that even if I can concentrate my eldar on one flank of my Ork opponent, that his half of an army can generally fight as well as my whole army, so all I do is delay the inevitable.

Lets say you focus fire on e 1-2 squads of Orks, there are still 2-3 more + Lootas + Trukks + Bikers or Storm Boyz all coming to bear on you. Ignore any mob and you dead.
we can get lots of shoots but at the cost of plinking lots of diffrent squad then we get wiped by the 5 1/2 Str squads that WAAAGH!ed into us by turn 3.
A good Ork player can get into the assault by Turn 3, 2 if lucky or your unlucky.

Our best bet is War walkers (there HS not troop so ill drop that here)