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Ok I think I have been playing this wrong for a while. Eldrad's staff can be used with a pistol, true or false?

I've been playing it as 1 attack with the staff, 2 attacks with WB/SCP.

But I was just bored today and going over the codex and noticed Singing Spear is a completely different entry and the staff is not a spear (the spear entry specifically says it cannot be used with a pistol.) Yriels spear is considered a singing spear, for example, because it states so.

Am I right or wrong in how I have been playing?

Thanks!

The codex never states how many hands it takes to use the Staff.

Most people play it that if some thing isn't called "2 handed" it can be used one handed and so can gain an extra attack if combined with a "Normal Close Combat Weapon" (like a pistol).

After all, can you find where it says that power weapons are one handed? No? Well since they are not stated as being a "2 hand weapon" you get the bonus.

This is the way i play but expect people to question it, hell his Staff is bigger then he is but he can wield it one handed what a guy.

It doesn't say it is two handed.
It also doesn't explicitly say it is a CCW however, merely that "it wounds on a 2+" which one could interpret as being a CCW. it would be rather silly to not do so, but people might (I am assuming this is one of the reasons for the question)
You should clarify with your opponent (since the RaW can be interpreted either way) before the game.

By personal view is that yes, it does confer an extra attack. While not explicit, it is implicit that it is indeed a CCW. As it has no rules denying the eligibility of extra attacks, you do get one.

Tri, most players I know do it the other way around. GW has been dropping the whole bit about listing whether weapons are one or two handed in the newer codecil and pretty much leaving us hanging. Is there anything in the Space Marine codex that says a bolter is two-handed?

But nowhere does it say or imply that it (the staff) is one handed, and there are two-handed ccw, so just because a weapon can be used as a ccw does not mean that it is one-handed and grants +1 attack.
And then there is the whole other issue, about him being armed with two different special weapons..........

If it isnt specifically 2 handed (uge choppa) then it can be used with an additional CC weapon. Being that it is a pecial weapon all of your attacks including your bonus for being armed with an additional CC weapon benefit from the special weapon. Although getting eldrad in CC pretty much means hes dead and you about to get tabled. As far as a Bolter unless you have true grit it isnt even a CC weapon and true grit has its own special rules (no bonus for charging) the whole 2 handed 3 handed 6 handed debate no longer applies. A CC weapon may always be combined with another CC weapon unless it specifically states it cannot. Which is always the rule for GW if it states that something functions differently than the main rules then and only then does it. If it dosent say anything then it follows the main rules. I.E. a bolter, it is not a CC weapon (main rules) space wolves, grey knights have true grit which specifically states that to a model with ture grit a bolter is a CC weapon (except terminators). A uge choppa specifically states that you may not get an extra attack for having an additional CC weapon. Eldrads staff says nothing of the sort so it may therefore be paired with an additional CC weapon. Again you cant assume and make up rules based upon certain assumptions, the rules are pretty straight forward. And always apply unless something specifically states that it works differently than the main rules.

don_mondo wrote:Tri, most players I know do it the other way around. GW has been dropping the whole bit about listing whether weapons are one or two handed in the newer codecil and pretty much leaving us hanging. Is there anything in the Space Marine codex that says a bolter is two-handed?

But nowhere does it say or imply that it (the staff) is one handed, and there are two-handed ccw, so just because a weapon can be used as a ccw does not mean that it is one-handed and grants +1 attack.
And then there is the whole other issue, about him being armed with two different special weapons..........

Firstly, it doesn't need to, because nowhere does it say the Bolter is a CCW, 2 handed or not. How many hands it takes no longer has any bearing on if you can have it. It seems they re-invented holsters during 4th edition.

Nor does it need to specifically say it is one handed. The rules do not say both weapons have to be one handed, merely they cannot be two handed. If you have 2 Weapons, that are not 2 handed, that count as CCW that have no rules to the contrary (Power Fists etc) then you can get the bonus attack.

exactly my point, unless the weapon specifically states that it cannot be used with another CC weapon then it can, regardless if it is a 30' long staff. Like wise with the bolter it is not a CC weapon, unless you have a rule that syas it is. Again one cannot assume that something works differently than the rules (main book) say they do. the only time the rules change is if you specifically have something in you codex that states differently. So eldrads staff says nothing about it not being able to be paired with another CC wepaon, therefore it can. Uge choppas, relic blades etc... specifically state they CANNOT be paird with another CC weapon there fore they cant. You can model a relic blade one handed it still wouldnt mean its able to be paired. like wise with eldrads staff. It can be modeled 2 hande or shoved up his bum, regardless of how its modeled it can be paried with another CC weapon, because nothing says it cannot.

da gob smaka wrote: Although getting eldrad in CC pretty much means hes dead and you about to get tabled.

that is such an untrue statement

I often send Eldrad into CC...along with 10 Warlocks and Yriel....unless they have to go up aginst a very serious CC threat (nob bikers, 10 man assault termie squads, etc.)they pretty much chew up anything they want, without taking more than a scratch. That is alot of WS5 I5 attacks that wound on 2+, not counting what Yriel and Eldrad can do in CC, nor Yriel's big boom.

Page 42 of the Rulebook. Fighting with Two different special weapons.

Pretty much says..because he has two special weapons (Staff and Witchblade)...he does not get the bonus attack.

If it isnt specifically 2 handed (uge choppa) then it can be used with an additional CC weapon.

And exactly what rule supports this statement of yours? Page number and quote please.

Hmm, I seem to have missed that. Yes, if you count the Staff as a CCW, it is obviously a Special CCW (it has its own rules for wounding) and because he has a Pistol, Special CCW and a Second non-same Special CCW, then yes, he can never get the bonus attack, even if you use the Witchblade and pistol.

I'll just facepalm into a corner for missing that

Ghaz wrote:

If it isnt specifically 2 handed (uge choppa) then it can be used with an additional CC weapon.

And exactly what rule supports this statement of yours? Page number and quote please.

Ghaz, for feth sake stop doing this in every thread. I already pointed out to you in the other thread, a weapon does not have to be defined as single handed, otherwise if they did, a Pistol wouldn't give a bonus attack ever, since they are counted as a CCW, not a Single Handed CCW. If you like I could link to the other thread where me and several others systematically broke every flawed argument you could throw at us untill you quit because you couldnt have your way. Will that do in lieu of Quotes and Page Numbers?

For those interested, it was the discussion about if the Burna Used as a Power Weapon (its not stated to be either Single Handed or Two Handed, unlike the Big Choppa which is designated as 2 handed) could be combined with a Pistol for a bonus attack. I recommend you read up fast before certain peoples posts have a chance to vanish: Here

And just before the Modquisition arrive: I am not attempting to be rude, I am not attempting to be Confrontational, and am trying my best to be Polite. All I am asking is for Ghaz to explain why he continues to bring up a flawed argument that was proven wrong in another thread, which he refuses to acknowledge because it means he was wrong.

ghaz, he said the page number and section there mate

was just reading through this and about to comment
ill have to agree with Gwar's last post here (no faceplaming though )

Ghaz wrote:The codex never states how many hands it takes to use the Staff.

And the cycle begins anew...

Simply out of curiosity: are you bringing that up again just to point out GW's inconsistencies or do you actually play it that way? (ie: No models get bonus attacks for two CCWs unless the codex specifies that the two CCWs are both single-handed weapons)

DebonaireToast wrote:

Ghaz wrote:The codex never states how many hands it takes to use the Staff.

And the cycle begins anew...

Simply out of curiosity: are you bringing that up again just to point out GW's inconsistencies or do you actually play it that way? (ie: No models get bonus attacks for two CCWs unless the codex specifies that the two CCWs are both single-handed weapons)

Which is what I pointed out in the other thread. If Ghaz plays the rules like he says he does, that means when he plays 40k Pistols dont allow a bonus attack, becayse they are defined as "An Additional Close Combat Weapon", not "an additional Single handed Close Combat Weapon"

Gwar! wrote:Which is what I pointed out in the other thread. If Ghaz plays the rules like he says he does, that means when he plays 40k Pistols dont allow a bonus attack, becayse they are defined as "An Additional Close Combat Weapon", not "an additional Single handed Close Combat Weapon"

Indeed... and as I pointed out in the other thread the vast majority of CCWs (ie: chainswords, choppas, etc) are not classed as single-handed weapons either.
That's why I wonder if anyone would actually agree to play it that way.

DebonaireToast wrote:That's why I wonder if anyone would actually agree to play it that way.

No, Nobody would because that's not what the rules say anyway

I just wonder if a response is forthcoming this time.

INAT FAQ ruled you do not get +1A for his staff.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:INAT FAQ ruled you do not get +1A for his staff.

G

Zee INAT FAQ! Zhey do Nozeeng!

But yeah, it doesn't need clarification anyway, since he has the Staff, Witchblade and Pistol, so you cant get the +1A anyway because of the multiple Special Weapons rule.

JD21290 wrote:ghaz, he said the page number and section there mate

You mean the section for fighting with two single-handed weapons? No, he didn't answer my question. Give me a page number and rules quote that says a weapon is single-handed if not specifically noted as being two-handed.

DebonaireToast wrote:Simply out of curiosity: are you bringing that up again just to point out GW's inconsistencies or do you actually play it that way? (ie: No models get bonus attacks for two CCWs unless the codex specifies that the two CCWs are both single-handed weapons)

How I play and what the rules actually say are two different matters. The question was asked if the rules allow Eldrad's staff to provide an extra +1 Attack in close combat. The answer to that question is indeterminate since we don't know how many hands it takes for Eldrad to use his staff. The rules simply don't provide any rules that say a weapon is single-handed by default. Personally the way I play it is that all ranged weapons are two-handed and all close combat weapons are single-handed unless noted otherwise, but that's inconsequential to what was asked because that's nothing more than a house rule.

Gwar! wrote:No, Nobody would because that's not what the rules say anyway

Yes, that is what the rules say. It's better than you're ludicrous claims that the section clearly entitled 'FIGHTING WITH TWO SINGLE-HANDED WEAPONS" doesn't apply to fighting with two single-handed weapons and that the header of a section is not a part of the rules. Next you're going to try and tell us that the rules for the Shooting phase don't apply to just the Shooting phase because the chapter title is meaningless.

So why did they entitled that section "FIGHTING WITH TWO SINGLE-HANDED WEAPONS" if that's not when it applies? Just to confuse everyone?

Gee ghaz, its a shame I havent answered your claims somewhere else.

Oh wait I have.
And yes, the title is misleading since nowhere in the actual rules does it say weapons have to be single handed to claim an extra attack. It does say they cannot be two handed though.

So let me get this straight, you are claiming, that unless a Close Combat weapon is SPECIFICALLY designated a 1 handed weapon, it cannot be used to claim a bonus attack.

Just a yes or no please.

P.S. I just want to apologise to the OP for the inevitable shitstorm that this thread will now turn into. Just getting it out the way now.

Gwar! wrote:

Green Blow Fly wrote:INAT FAQ ruled you do not get +1A for his staff.

G

Zee INAT FAQ! Zhey do Nozeeng!

But yeah, it doesn't need clarification anyway, since he has the Staff, Witchblade and Pistol, so you cant get the +1A anyway because of the multiple Special Weapons rule.

Interesting that they bother to clarify on Eldrad, but make no mention of Marneus Augustus Calgar (must always use the full name ) having the same issue. He has 2 power fists and a power weapon, but you never hear cries of outrage over him getting a bonus attack for two weapons.

As for the handedness of the staff, if it is not 1 handed then neither are power swords. No where I have seen specifically makes them all one handed. So if Eldrad gets no second attack then neither does any bog standard marine with a power weapon.

In general for the multiple weapons question, the BRB talks about using 2 special weapons, not having two special weapons. Eldrad (and Marneus AUGUSTUS Calgar) can choose to use any two of their weapons gaining bonuses accordingly. In Calgar's case this would mean using the twin fists.

Kyrolon wrote:
Interesting that they bother to clarify on Eldrad, but make no mention of Marneus Augustus Calgar (must always use the full name ) having the same issue. He has 2 power fists and a power weapon, but you never hear cries of outrage over him getting a bonus attack for two weapons.

As for the handedness of the staff, if it is not 1 handed then neither are power swords. No where I have seen specifically makes them all one handed. So if Eldrad gets no second attack then neither does any bog standard marine with a power weapon.

In general for the multiple weapons question, the BRB talks about using 2 special weapons, not having two special weapons. Eldrad (and Marneus AUGUSTUS Calgar) can choose to use any two of their weapons gaining bonuses accordingly. In Calgar's case this would mean using the twin fists.

If this rule is not designed to nerf Eldrad and PF chappies then who is it for. So the Chappie who takes a Power fist along with his Rosaius can bypass this rule by picking up a boltpistol too? I don't think so. You have Two special weapons...you lose the extra attack.

Kyrolon wrote:As for the handedness of the staff, if it is not 1 handed then neither are power swords. No where I have seen specifically makes them all one handed. So if Eldrad gets no second attack then neither does any bog standard marine with a power weapon.

Except for the older 3rd edition/4th edition codices that had them listed as single-handed weapons in their Armouries. However you are correct that there is no rule that makes all power weapons single-handed by default.

Rangerrob wrote:You have Two special weapons...you lose the extra attack.

You only lose the extra +1 Attack for using two special clsoe combat weapons, not for simply having two.

The rule is still applicable to the chaplain if he wants to use the powerfist since it can't be combined with another weapon. It also applies to people who only have two special weapons. Additionally, since Calgar came out after the 5th edition rules were in effect, why bother making him the only person with 2 powerfists if he can never use them?

More importantly, I wish the FAQ council would have ruled consistently on this one. That could be a product of no one asking about Calgar, but in that case, why are people so worried about Eldrad getting one extra attack and not Calgar? Who spends more time in HTH?

Hello? Ghaz? I asked a very Simple question. I would appreciate a Response please.

Do you claim that if a model has 2 close combat weapons that are not specificity designated as single handed weapons, they do not get a bonus attack.

A yes or a no please.

Ghaz wrote:

Kyrolon wrote:As for the handedness of the staff, if it is not 1 handed then neither are power swords. No where I have seen specifically makes them all one handed. So if Eldrad gets no second attack then neither does any bog standard marine with a power weapon.

Except for the older 3rd edition/4th edition codices that had them listed as single-handed weapons in their Armouries. However you are correct that there is no rule that makes all power weapons single-handed by default.

Ghaz, this is wrong. While you are correct in that there is no rule that makes them single handed weapons by default, as I have pointed out multiple times (yet you seem content to ignore me), that doesn't make the slightest bit of difference.

Kyrolon wrote:Additionally, since Calgar came out after the 5th edition rules were in effect, why bother making him the only person with 2 powerfists if he can never use them?

1) Calgar is not the only model that can use two power fists.

2) He can use them both, as long as they're single-handed weapons.

Gwar! wrote:Do you claim that if a model has 2 close combat weapons that are not specificity designated as single handed weapons, they do not get a bonus attack.

A yes or a no please.

He would not get a bonus attack because he would not be using the rules for fighting with two single-handed weapons.

Ghaz wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Do you claim that if a model has 2 close combat weapons that are not specificity designated as single handed weapons, they do not get a bonus attack.

A yes or a no please.

He would not get a bonus attack because he would not be using the rules for fighting with two single-handed weapons.

Right, now that that is a matter of public record, let me ask you this.

Does an Space Marine Captain with a Bolt Pistol and Chainsword get an extra attack for two close combat weapons? Again, yes or no please.

This all sounds eerily familiar....

I think you made your point Ghaz.

GW did a poor job wording the header on page 42, and it should be addressed in an errata so that everyone would not have to just use "house rules."

DebonaireToast wrote:This all sounds eerily familiar....

Yes, yes it does.

-Twiddles thumbs waiting for answer-