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Gwar, by pure RAW, they do not. Very few of us play it that way, I'm sure. Ghaz even told us he plays with the assumption that all ccw are single handed unless stated otherwise. But by the rules, which require the two weapons to be single-handed weapons to gain the +1 attack, if your two weapon are not classed as single handed weapons, then you don't get it.
Now most of us do indeed read into the rules (the descripive paragraphs) and allow the +1 attack for a pistol and ccw, two ccw, etc. But even that gets sticky. Are all power weapons automatically single handed. Nope, Dark Eldar Punisher is a two-handed power weapon. How about the Ork Burna? One or two handed? I don't know. So we cannot automatically assume that any given weapon is single handed and there is no default setting for any class of weapon. I'm sure if we dig deep enough we can even find a single handed Heavy Weapon. All Ghaz (And I) are doing, are pointing out that the rules do not actually answer this question based on one or two handed weapons.
Now, as I did mention earlier, the two special weapons does indeed kick in and pull a gotcha on Eldrad anyways, so it's a moot point. And yes, I do indeed believe this applies to Marneus as well.

The thing is don_mondo, the entire premise of "it must be single handed" is derived from a header to a rules section, and not the actual rules itself.

If you can show to me, a section of actual rules, and not a poorly worded header (a title, not a rule), that says a Close Combat Weapon MUST be defined as a single handed Close Combat Weapon in order to be eligible for a bonus attack, then I will accept your argument.

As it is, its a flawed argument, based off non-rules.

And notice, the rules for "A normal and a Special Weapon" do not mention anything about having to be single handed, merely "These models gain one additional attack. All of their attacks, including the bonus attack, benefit from the special weapon's bonuses." Nothing about one handedness there.

Don is 110% correct. Once you know the rules, then you can sit down with your opponents or league or whatever and come up with a solution you all agree on.

don_mondo wrote:Now, as I did mention earlier, the two special weapons does indeed kick in and pull a gotcha on Eldrad anyways, so it's a moot point. And yes, I do indeed believe this applies to Marneus as well.

Except it doesn't kick in if you're using the shuriken pistol instead of either the staff or witchblade. That however is a discussion for another thread...

Gwar! wrote:The thing is don_mondo, the entire premise of "it must be single handed" is derived from a header to a rules section, and not the actual rules itself.

And what says it's not a rule? Because you say so? It is a rule, it tells you when the rules apply. Added on top of that, you still haven't answered why they put in the header "FIGHTING WITH TWO SINGLE-HANDED WEAPONS" if it doesn't apply to fighting with two single-handed weapons and instead fighting with two non twe-handed weapons.

Ghaz wrote:Don is 110% correct. Once you know the rules, then you can sit down with your opponents or league or whatever and come up with a solution you all agree on.

don_mondo wrote:Now, as I did mention earlier, the two special weapons does indeed kick in and pull a gotcha on Eldrad anyways, so it's a moot point. And yes, I do indeed believe this applies to Marneus as well.

Except it doesn't kick in if you're using the shuriken pistol instead of either the staff or witchblade. That however is a discussion for another thread...

And once again, ghaz ignores a very simple question. Whats wrong? Are my questions to complicated for you?

Also, you are wrong about that too ghaz. I now quote from that magical page, Page 42:
Two different special weapons:
When it is their turn to attack, these models must choose which weapon to use that turn, but they never get the bonus attack for using two weapons (such is the penalty for wielding too many complex weapons.

Firstly, I want to remind everyone that you cannot chose not to use a special weapon, therefore, when Elrad is in close combat, and must pick 2 weapons to fight with, he must, as per the rules, pick both of his special weapons, which means he will not get the bonus attack. Even if he could decide to use the Pistol and Special Close combat weapon (which he cant) he wouldnt get the bonus attack becayse the rule says no bonus attack is "the penalty for wielding too many complex weapons". Wielding, not using.

Gwar! wrote:And once again, ghaz ignores a very simple question. Whats wrong? Are my questions to complicated for you?

And what's wrong with you? Too much of a troll to admit when you're wrong so you try and make wild claims that a header is not a rule? Seems to me you're the one who can't handle the simple rules of the forum and have to resort to trolling when you can't defend your position.

Gwar! wrote:Wielding, not using.

Guess what, when you're 'wielding' a weapon you're 'using' it. I'm done with this thread until you can grow up and have an adult discussion.

Ghaz wrote:

Gwar! wrote:And once again, ghaz ignores a very simple question. Whats wrong? Are my questions to complicated for you?

And what's wrong with you? Too much of a troll to admit when you're wrong so you try and make wild claims that a header is not a rule? Seems to me you're the one who can't handle the simple rules of the forum and have to resort to trolling when you can't defend your position.

Gwar! wrote:Wielding, not using.

Guess what, when you're 'wielding' a weapon you're 'using' it. I'm done with this thread until you can grow up and have an adult discussion.

I am having an adult discussion. You are the one pouting like a child by refusing to answer my questions. And give it up. Everyone here knows you are the biggest troll of them all, and you know it.

The simple fact is, you assert that having a Pistol and Close Combat Weapon does not allow you a bonus attack, because the Pistol is not defined as Single handed.

The utter idiocy of that sentence alone is enough to shred what little respect I had for you left.

Hell, the Chainsword isn't even defined as a Single Handed close combat Weapon, but rather just a Close Combat Weapon.

So please, go ahead and be as "done" with this thread as you like. I asked a fair and simple question, and you have thrown a tantrum and refused to debate like an adult. And we are supposed to trust you to make the rulings for the Army Builder files? No wonder the thing is so full of errors. I mean, Assault Marines are listed as having 1/2 attacks, and the Sergeant 2/3 attacks. Surely that's incorrect?

I've always played that Eldrad is wielding two special weapons and does not get +1 attack.

After rereading page 42 in the brb I'm second guessing myself.

He has a staff,witchblade and pistol. Two are special and one is normal.

You do not get the bonuses of wielding two special weapons,but if you have a normal and special weapon you will benefit from the +1 attack for haveing two cc weapons.

Blackarandras wrote:I've always played that Eldrad is wielding two special weapons and does not get +1 attack.

After rereading page 42 in the brb I'm second guessing myself.

He has a staff,witchblade and pistol. Two are special and one is normal.

You do not get the bonuses of wielding two special weapons,but if you have a normal and special weapon you will benefit from the +1 attack for haveing two cc weapons.

The thing is, you cannot "turn off" a special weapon. You're always using your special weapons. Hence you must use both special weapons. And even so, as I have pointed out (though some people claim I am wrong, when all I am doing is following the rules) you still are wielding 2 specials and a Normal, so you cannot get the bonus attack (as per the 2 Special Weapons rules)

Here are some questions:Can Karandras choose to attack at his normal initiative with the chainsword?

How many attacks does the Autarch get with a reaper launcher, sword and pistol?

I agree,you can't turn off a special weapon.

Blackarandras wrote:Here are some questions:Can Karandras choose to attack at his normal initiative with the chainsword?

Yes he may, since he is using 2 special Close Combat Weapons (the Scorpion Chainsword and the Scorpion Claw) so must pick one to use. He cannot split his attacks however, so either all at I7 S5 or all at I1 S8. He don't get the bonus attack however

How many attacks does the Autarch get with a reaper launcher, sword and pistol?

According to Ghaz, 3, because the pistol is not defined as a Single handed weapon. Those of us who play by the rules say 4. The heavy Weapon doesn't affect anything, as it has no rules for use in Close combat. The only weapons utilised in CC are the Scorpion Chainsword and Pistol, which falls under "A normal and a Special Weapon" part of the rules.

I agree,just playing the devil's advocate.

Kyrolon wrote:The rule is still applicable to the chaplain if he wants to use the powerfist since it can't be combined with another weapon. It also applies to people who only have two special weapons. Additionally, since Calgar came out after the 5th edition rules were in effect, why bother making him the only person with 2 powerfists if he can never use them?

More importantly, I wish the FAQ council would have ruled consistently on this one. That could be a product of no one asking about Calgar, but in that case, why are people so worried about Eldrad getting one extra attack and not Calgar? Who spends more time in HTH?

I'm an Eldar player. Yeah I field Edrad in probably 90% of the games I play.
If this rule is not written for Eldrad (and other special caracters) then who the heck is it for. You can not bypass the rule just by adding another non-special weapon. "I was confused with 2 weapons but now that I've added this basic pistol, I'm no longer confused."

I'm betting that people are not asking about Calgar because people didn't realize he also had a Power sword. Why he was given that is beyond me, but yeah having it takes an attack away from him.

Rangerrob wrote:I'm an Eldar player. Yeah I field Edrad in probably 90% of the games I play.
If this rule is not written for Eldrad (and other special caracters) then who the heck is it for. You can not bypass the rule just by adding another non-special weapon. "I was confused with 2 weapons but now that I've added this basic pistol, I'm no longer confused."

I'm betting that people are not asking about Calgar because people didn't realize he also had a Power sword. Why he was given that is beyond me, but yeah having it takes an attack away from him.

While he loses an attack, he makes up for it by being able to strike at Initiative if he wants to.

-Tumbleweeds and Crickets-

Gwar! wrote:

Blackarandras wrote:I've always played that Eldrad is wielding two special weapons and does not get +1 attack.

After rereading page 42 in the brb I'm second guessing myself.

He has a staff,witchblade and pistol. Two are special and one is normal.

You do not get the bonuses of wielding two special weapons,but if you have a normal and special weapon you will benefit from the +1 attack for haveing two cc weapons.

The thing is, you cannot "turn off" a special weapon. You're always using your special weapons. Hence you must use both special weapons. And even so, as I have pointed out (though some people claim I am wrong, when all I am doing is following the rules) you still are wielding 2 specials and a Normal, so you cannot get the bonus attack (as per the 2 Special Weapons rules)

Gwar, I agree you can't "turn off" a special weapon. That is clear. If you are using a special weapon at all, then your attacks must be made with that weapon. However, I believe there is a distinction between posessing a special weapon and using a special weapon. When a model can have any number of weapons in 5th edition (and a few 4th edition) codexes, how do we resolve this? The only answer I can see is that of the multiple weapons you have you can choose any two (non two handed) weapons to use. Once you get to this stage then you must use any special attacks you have.

If we go with your interpretation of the rules how do resolve someone like Calgar who has 3 SPECIAL weapons? He can't use all three. Two of them are the same. Does that mean by your thinking that Calgar cannot choose to not use his powersword? Additionally even if he doesn't use it does that mean his special twin powerfists give him no advantage over a normal single powerfist? What part of the rule says you Must use the special weapon? My recollection is that you must make any attacks with the special weapon you are using, not that you must choose to use the special weapon.

Not to be a brown noser,but I'd be interested in Yakface's opinion on this and/or John Spencer's.

The wording in the brb can really throw you off on this subject.

Kyrolon wrote:If we go with your interpretation of the rules how do resolve someone like Calgar who has 3 SPECIAL weapons? He can't use all three. Two of them are the same. Does that mean by your thinking that Calgar cannot choose to not use his powersword? Additionally even if he doesn't use it does that mean his special twin powerfists give him no advantage over a normal single powerfist? What part of the rule says you Must use the special weapon? My recollection is that you must make any attacks with the special weapon you are using, not that you must choose to use the special weapon.

No. The rules state, that if you have a Special Weapon and a Normal Weapon, you must use the special Weapon and if you have 2 Different Special weapons, you can pick which one to use. So In Calgars case, you can choose to use 2 Power Fists or 1 Power Fist and a Power Weapon. Either Way you don't get the bonus attack because he has 3 Special Weapons (even if 2 are the same, he still has 3 Special Weapons). And his Power Fists have a AP 2 Storm Bolter in them. I think it works well. Also don't forget, the rules were written to accommodate 2 different "new" models and an older model, so its not beyond the realms of possibility that GW messed up again by not realising this and to be honest, with the speed at which they issue errata (errata that could easily be done monthly on-line ) we'll never know for sure.

Apologies If i was unclear on that

Blackarandras wrote:Not to be a brown noser,but I'd be interested in Yakface's opinion on this and/or John Spencer's.

The wording in the brb can really throw you off on this subject.

Well, since Yak is involved in the INAT FAQ, I would assume that he would side with it... pg. 9

+RB.42P.01 – Q: In close combat, can a model armed with two or more special weapons AND a normal single-handed weapon choose to fight with a special and normal weapon?
A: Yes. In this situation the model must use at least one of his special weapons but may also utilize the normal weapon in order to gain the +1 Attack bonus (assuming both weapons are single-handed and are allowed to be used together to gain the bonus Attack, of course) [clarification].

I believe the people have posted responses from Jon Spencer that are the same or similiar...not that they are official, but at least they tell you where they stand, which was your question

Thank you super Jesus.

Alerian wrote:

Blackarandras wrote:Not to be a brown noser,but I'd be interested in Yakface's opinion on this and/or John Spencer's.

The wording in the brb can really throw you off on this subject.

Well, since Yak is involved in the INAT FAQ, I would assume that he would side with it... pg. 9

+RB.42P.01 – Q: In close combat, can a model armed with two or more special weapons AND a normal single-handed weapon choose to fight with a special and normal weapon?
A: Yes. In this situation the model must use at least one of his special weapons but may also utilize the normal weapon in order to gain the +1 Attack bonus (assuming both weapons are single-handed and are allowed to be used together to gain the bonus Attack, of course) [clarification].

I believe the people have posted responses from Jon Spencer that are the same or similiar...not that they are official, but at least they tell you where they stand, which was your question

Well I respectfully say "until GW get off their asses and errata it, the Situation is ambiguous, and requires you to clarify with your opponent pre game".

I still feel that the term wielding in the rulebook doesn't mean just the 2 you are suing in that particular close combat, but rather your entire compliment of weapons. I also think the wording suggest you must use 2 special weapons, even if you have a pistol.

However, I am mature enough to realise that I may be wrong, and I admit that. However, baring an official errata, My point of view is just as valid as anyone else's (except Ghaz's because he is utterly loco for thinking pistols don't give bonus attacks)

Blackarandras wrote:Thank you super Jesus.

You rang?

I think I still have to disagree, Gwar. Reading page 42 under the different weapon combinations we get the following:

A normal and a special weapon

These models gain one additional attack. All of their attacks, including the bonus attack, benefit from the special weapon's bonuses.

And then:

Two Different special weapons

When it is their turn to attack, these models must choose which weapon to use that turn, but they never get the bonus attack for using two weapons (such is the penalty for wielding too many complex weapons).

Part of the problem here is that nothing tells us what to do with three weapons. Neither section though says a model must fight with special weapons in preference to non special weapons. It tells us if we are using one of each all attacks are with the special one, and that if we have two specials we only get to use one of them. Also note that it doesn't say that the model HAS two special weapons. It says the models is wielding two special weapons. If you have three weapons you can only WIELD two of them. There is nothing I can see in that section that limits you on which two you choose. For added emphasis the section (I know you don't like section headers, but I believe they are part of the rules) is entitled Fighting with two single handed weapons not carrying multiple weapons. Otherwise, what is the point in giving more than two weapons to people?

Edit: Gwar you ninja'd me with your last post. I'm not ignoring the fact you just addressed this. We'll have to disagree on the interpretation we each get out of the passage. The ironic thing is the INAT FAQ still has Eldrad getting only 1 attack because his staff isn't "one handed" which BTW is one rule question I agree with you on. Nothing is clarified as one handed.

Kyrolon wrote:Edit: Gwar you ninja'd me with your last post. I'm not ignoring the fact you just addressed this. We'll have to disagree on the interpretation we each get out of the passage. The ironic thing is the INAT FAQ still has Eldrad getting only 1 attack because his staff isn't "one handed" which BTW is one rule question I agree with you on. Nothing is clarified as one handed.

Haha, I'm glad someone else gets this too

Good stuff Gwar,truly funny.

I'm more concerned about it for consistency sake. You can't say that (as an example) Eldrad's staff isn't one handed without saying that power weapons, CCW, and several other things aren't one handed. The only way I can see to play it, and I think the way most people play it, is that only things that are two handed are not one handed. The rules never spell this out explicitly, but if we don't make that assumption everything breaks down. As far as I can tell at a glance, the only place the word single-handed is used is in the header on p42 and the description for bonus attacks earlier. What I find annoying is that certain wepons get singled out as being "not one handed" and others are not.

OK firstly i think its fair to say there's a typo in the codex
"... or it can be used as a powerful weapon" should read
"... or it can be used as a power weapon"
but as it is RAW it never says when it can be used (so you can never use it) but since its a weapon and it has no range it isn't a great leap to see this as a CC weapon

and secondly as i (and other people since) pointed out all weapons are by default 1 handed or the rules just don't work

Final .... "some models are equipped with two single-hand weapons they CAN use in close combat" not must, can
i can use my witchblade and pistol
i can use my staff and pistol
not Must use the staff and witchblade

I would also like to ask where it says i must use my Special Close Combat Weapon? As i read it I CAN use any weapon i like and i CAN use them in any combination i like.

Tri wrote:OK firstly i think its fair to say there's a typo in the codex
"... or it can be used as a powerful weapon" should read
"... or it can be used as a power weapon"
but as it is RAW it never says when it can be used (so you can never use it) but since its a weapon and it has no range it isn't a great leap to see this as a CC weapon

and secondly as i (and other people since) pointed out all weapons are by default 1 handed or the rules just don't work

Final .... "some models are equipped with two single-hand weapons they CAN use in close combat" not must, can
i can use my witchblade and pistol
i can use my staff and pistol
not Must use the staff and witchblade

I would also like to ask where it says i must use my Special Close Combat Weapon? As i read it I CAN use any weapon i like and i CAN use them in any combination i like.

That was debated a lot when 5th came out. its part of the rules for using a Special Weapon. it says "all attacks use the bonuses of the special weapons" which basically means you have to use the special weapom (you cant turn them off like you could before).

GWAR & Ghaz:

If you guys can't manage to have a discussion without consistently inflaming each other then you need to use the 'ignore' function on each other.

This is a grey area in the rules and there is no clear answer no matter how much anyone wants to argue about it so there isn't any reason to bicker over something that has no clear solution only different shades of grey.

Tri wrote:

I would also like to ask where it says i must use my Special Close Combat Weapon? As i read it I CAN use any weapon i like and i CAN use them in any combination i like.

Page 35 says: "All engaged models wil fight this turn's Assault phase with their full number of Attacks and use any special close combat attack they have."


So IMHO, models must use a special close combat attack if they have one, but if they have multiple different ones they are still abiding by this rule as long as they use one of them. I agree with what has been said by others that the 'Fighting with Two Single Handed Weapon' rules on the bottom of page 42 are indeed rules for using different combinations of weapons because otherwise the rules cease to be coherent if the model has more than two single-handed weapons.

Gah Ninja'd I was just about to post that Page 35 Quote (Hmm, 6 Minutes... I need to lrn2refresh).

So yak, if I may ask, what is your stance on the "single handed Weapon" nonsense flying about?

Does a weapon that is not specified as 2 handed automatically give a bonus attack when paired with another different weapon that is not specified as 2 handed (subject to special rules aka Powerfists, Relic Blades etc) or must the Weapon be Specified explicitly as a Single Handed weapon (which neither Normal CCW or Pistols are defined as)?

ahhh i can see how it could be read that way ... but i don't read it quite the same as it doesn't say weapon just attack ... i just assumed that it meant things like bio-plasma, or servo arms which are special bonuse attacks ...

Fair enough i can see the merritt in your reading ... and to be frank it just give me an advantage to play by your reading.

First off, the list for CCWs is clearly defined in the RB. And many of the weapons on that list are *not* found in any codex.

Examples are: Rifle butt and bayonets

The author then throws in Chainswords and combat blades with a etc... to show that there are more types of CCWs other than these.

My point is that the author is telling the reader that CCWs are anything that a model has that he can stab, shoot (Bolt pistol), bludgeon, and slash at his opponent.

So in effect, a lasgun, a bolter, a flamer, a shoota, etc... are all weapons that fit the profile that was given on page 42. So, yes, a bolter *is* a CCW. EDIT: Because a bolter *has* a rifle butt (note: a rifle but is not the same thing as a rifle stock, if a weapon has a stock it is considered the weapons 'butt' if it doesn't it is just the end of the weapon past the pistol grip or 'shot gun' grip)

But continuing on the same page we find out that rifle butts are indeed a two-handed weapon.

to keep on topic, Eldrad's staff is a single handed weapon simply because all other such weapons are too. e.g. Nemisis force weapons (poleaxes half the time), Force staffs like the one Tigurius uses. Doesn't Eldrad have a pistol too? I thought he did. Oh and I concur on not being able to use a witch weapon as an extra CCW along with his staff.

Indeed, rifle butts are two-handed weapons.

I wonder....

Are fists classified as single-handed weapons?

"My marine has two fists, he punches your ork in the face. +1 Attack."