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I was previously under the impession that you needed a PAIR of Lightning Claws to get the ability to re-roll wounds. However as I read the rulebook now, on page 42 (small book), it says "A lightning claw is a power weapon and it allows the wielder to re-roll any failed roll to wound." Am I missing something? RAW, that is clearly talking about a singular claw, right?

I should point out that it also mentions that Lightning Claws are 'commonly' used in pairs. But 'commonly' is a far cry from "must be" IMHO. And I guess the second part of my question is, if I can get the re-roll wounds ability from just a single claw, then why would one ever expend the extra points to get a pair of them?

If a single claw did not allow rerolling wounds why would it cost more than a simple power weapon?

The point of the pair of claws is to get the extra attack for having two close combat weapons and retain the re-rolling wound ability.

What ^ he said. Plus a pair of em looks sweet.

Arschbombe,

That is part of my point--a lightning claw and power weapons often cost the SAME amount. Check out the Vanguard Vets entry for example.

So, with that said I guess one could ask why bother ever buying a power weapon if you have a lightning claw option? And you would get the extra attack by just having a bolt pistol or plain close combat weapon and you would spend way less points. Right?

You only get the extra attack for a second CCW if you have two lightning claws.

So:
Power Weapon and Bolt Pistol - +1 Attack
Lightning Claw and Bolt Pistol - re-roll failed to wound, no extra attack

Dietrich,

You have solved it for me. I now see that also on page 42 under "A normal and a special weapon" it says to treat Lightning Claws like Fists in terms of extra attack...Thanks.

I was unaware that the claw cost the same as a power weapon in the SM codex. I'm a BA guy. Our claws cost the same as a fist (10 points more than a power weapon).

Dietrich covered the other part except for the last option:

2 lightning claws - +1 attack, re-roll to wound.

Yup, the reason they cost the same is because you MUST buy 2 to get a bonus attack, while a power weapon can be stuck with pretty much anything else.

So you pay 10 points for either a bonus attack or a reroll of the wounds, or you pay 20 boints for both.

Now, I guess if we wish to belabour the point, I'll ask y'all what is a better buy for my Vanguard Vets? The power weapon with a +1 attack or the single Lightning Claw with the re-roll wound ability? I'm leaning towards the Claw because if I run into high toughness stuff (ie the nidzilla list that one of my pals plays) that chance to re-roll wounds would work out better for me statistically (?). Opinions?

tbh you should go for 2 Lightning Claws. That bonus attack comes in handy and All you're losing is a bolt pistol that you probably use once before charging...

The comparison that I ususally see is 2 power weapons on two separate models vs 2 claws on a single model since the cost is similar. I think the math gives the edge to the 2 power weapons because of the extra attacks( including charge). It's something like 8 PW attacks vs 4 claw attacks re-rolling wounds with the 2 PW averaging one wound more.

Or, a single powerclaw each on two models. Which might look a bit weird, like they've had to share a pair or something. Its up to you really.

Why would you use vanguard at all? They are terrible.

A claw with 2 attacks and a re-roll to wound averages more wounds than a power weapon with 3 attacks, and can wound higher toughness creatures more easily. So unless you are fighting GEQs only the single claw is better.

Yes, you could have an assault squad with a sarge holding a powerfist, or maybe even two assault squads. But then again thats not really the question.

Drudge Dreadnought wrote:Why would you use vanguard at all? They are terrible.

This statement is completely untrue. I've been fielding a Vanguard squad for quite a while now, and they're awesome.

Hymirl wrote:Yes, you could have an assault squad with a sarge holding a powerfist, or maybe even two assault squads. But then again thats not really the question.

What you can do with a Assault Squad Sergeant is, because GW are sooooo consistent (read: Not), you can actually replace one weapon for Pair of Lightning Claws, and then replace the other for a Power Fist! While pointless (since you would lose the Bonus attack for having too many Special Weapons, even if you declare you're using the 2 LC in CC) it would look kind of cool, and lets you give your assault Sergeant a Pair of LC and a Combi Weapon for some nice Flamery Goodness.

Vanguard with Twin Lightning Claws and Captain Shrike, closest you can get to having Shrike's Wing from 4th Ed. Thats how I'd field them, but then again I love Lightning Claws, and Captain Shrike (go figure) Shrike was my first SM Commander model, still haven't painted him...

You could also go for Vanguard with one LC and a Storm Shield, re-roll wounds and have a 3 up invuln, plus not having the extra attack doesn't mean much.

One thing I have noticed about vanguard is how people look at "heroic intervention" and insist on trying to use it.

However, one local player has come up with a much better strategy. Shrike+Vanguard (as BrotherStynier suggested there) but infiltrating (if you like to play "Lets ignore the rules" 40k) or outflanking (Warhammer 40k). Having a bunch of nasties pop up on a flank, able to manoeuvre 12+D6" for a multiple charge and chew up 2 squads is just priceless.

That strategy sounds rather good I'm kinda surprised that more people don't use Shrike and Vans like that more often. I guess the one bad thing about it would be the points cost of 10 Vanguard w/LCs or even 5 with LCs.

Is Shrike not allowed to infiltrate up to 12 inches way with a Squad Gwar or did I completely miss the point of Less Ignore the rules 40k.


Also what is the correct way to use Heroic Intervention? I know it can't be used is a IC joins but how do people abuse it?

Sorry for the kinda on topic post.

BrotherStynier wrote:Is Shrike not allowed to infiltrate up to 12 inches way with a Squad Gwar or did I completely miss the point of Less Ignore the rules 40k.

The commonly accepted interpretation is that shrike can infiltrate with a unit. In Gwar's literalist interpretation shrike can't join the unit until it's placed on the table and thus can't grant infiltrate to the unit. Or something like that anyway. But I think Gwar is an army of one on that score.

A guy in my group tried the shrike and vanguard infiltration trick in our last gaming session and it didn't work out as planned, but not because there's anything wrong with the idea. He got the initiative stolen from him in both games he used it. Shrike and the vanguard had set up for the first turn charge but took a round of shooting before being able to do so.

Against me, shrike, the vanguard and a scout squad unhorsed from a MM-equipped LS Storm assaulted 2 of my combat squads and killed 9 marines. On turn two, Lemartes, some death company and honor guard wiped out shrike and all his little pals. Things would have gone differently if shrike and co had been able go first on turn 1.

So then based on the randomness of initiative it would be better for Shrike and his Vanguards to use Outflank rather than attempt the infiltrate up close to the front lines?

In Gwar's interpretation of the rules Shrike w/ Vanguard can't outflank either because they would have to be joined together on the table rather than prior to the game. In that case I guess it would all depend on who you are playing with and where you are at.

That Lemartes charge sounds pretty vicious.

Oh while we are on the topic of Marine with Jump Packs, why can't the Command Squad take Jump Packs? They can take bikes, but not Jump Packs, that makes a Jump Pack Captain seem kinda useless in the current edition.

Also why no Shrike's Wing?

BrotherStynier wrote:So then based on the randomness of initiative it would be better for Shrike and his Vanguards to use Outflank rather than attempt the infiltrate up close to the front lines?

I'm not so sure. Your infiltration deployment is dependent on the initiative. If you have it, you can deploy more freely. If you don't you have to consider what you opponent will do when he goes first. If you have the initiative you have a 5 in 6 chance of keeping it so it's a pretty good bet. Unfortunately for our guy, he won the dice off each time and elected to go first for obvious reasons. He deployed and then had the initiative stolen each time. The odds of that are one in 36.

The reason the Lemartes charge was so effective is because he is I5 and the Death Company have Furious Charge so they go in with I5 too. So all my attacks went in and only Shrike was striking back simultaneously.

I have no idea about the command squads in the SM dex.

So he was just really, really unlucky then.

Yeah that will finish you off right then and there. How many attack do you get with that set up? The odds of making that many saves can't be too good even with 3ups.

I suppose on GW knows.

Lordhat wrote:

Drudge Dreadnought wrote:Why would you use vanguard at all? They are terrible.

This statement is completely untrue. I've been fielding a Vanguard squad for quite a while now, and they're awesome.

High cost unit with inefficient wargear prices that die as easily as regular marines? The double claw jump pack vanguard being talked about here are 60 points a model. You could have 3 regular assault marines for that. How is that good?

Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

High cost unit with inefficient wargear prices that die as easily as regular marines? The double claw jump pack vanguard being talked about here are 60 points a model. You could have 3 regular assault marines for that. How is that good?

So they are 9 points more that Shrike's Wing used to be and don't have Stealth, Move through Cover or Infiltrate.

I don't know the old Shrike's wing rules, but i assume its a 10 man squad all with LCs and jump packs? Using vanguard thats going to be like 600 points + shrike.

I don't have the dex at hand as its at home but, I believe you could take 0-10 Marines as members of Shrike's Wing. They came with twin LC, Jump Pack, Frag and Krak Grenades and had the same Special Rule as Shrike conferred Stealth, Move through Cover and infiltrate for 51pts a model.

Ten of them plus Shrike comes out to 695pts, if memory serves and Shrike was indeed 185pts.

I guess its a cool Apoc unit.

That was before Apoc, back in 4th Ed Marines 'dex back when there was such a thing a Chapter Traits where you could but nuts, sprinkles or chocolate sauce on your Vanilla Marines and have em your way.

Arschbombe wrote:

BrotherStynier wrote:Is Shrike not allowed to infiltrate up to 12 inches way with a Squad Gwar or did I completely miss the point of Less Ignore the rules 40k.

The commonly accepted interpretation is that shrike can infiltrate with a unit. In Gwar's literalist interpretation shrike can't join the unit until it's placed on the table and thus can't grant infiltrate to the unit. Or something like that anyway. But I think Gwar is an army of one on that score.

Actually, I am an army of many, considering its the rules. It is in fact the one thing the INAT FAQ did wrong imo. But anyway