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BrotherStynier wrote:So he was just really, really unlucky then.

Yes, he was.

How many attack do you get with that set up?

In my case I had 6 Death Company with Lemartes. On the charge they had 24 Str5 Rending attacks that could reroll misses because of Lemmy's Litanies of Hate. Lemmy threw in his 5 crozius attacks. If I mathhammered it right that should generate an average of 13 or 14 wounds, 3 or 4 of which would ignore armor saves.

Gwar! wrote: Pair of Lightning Claws, and then replace the other for a Power Fist! While pointless (since you would lose the Bonus attack for having too many Special Weapons, even if you declare you're using the 2 LC in CC) it would look kind of cool

Actually he has two of the same kind of special weapon, therefore gains +1 attack. (page 42)

While using both claws he wouldn't be wielding the other weapon, and wouldn't gain any bonus or negative effects from it.

It doesn't matter, the fact that he has 3 special weapons negates him from getting the bonus attack. But this has been done to death in other threads and all that happens is people get buthurt when I don't sugar coat my responses so I'll not push this any further.

Gwar! wrote:It doesn't matter, the fact that he has 3 special weapons negates him from getting the bonus attack. But this has been done to death in other threads and all that happens is people get buthurt when I don't sugar coat my responses so I'll not push this any further.

You have no rule supporting your position. I'll take your refusal to defend your argument as conceding the point then.

Um, As I said, I had already defended my argument in other threads. I'll take your refusal to bring evidence to support your point as you conceding as well then

Gwar! wrote: I'll take your refusal to bring evidence to support your point as you conceding as well then

I've already referred you to page 42 of the main rulebook. You should have spent more time reading this thread than smack talking about how your arguments cause everyone to run away crying.

You brought up an utterly irrelevant rule.
The rules for 2 different Special Weapons are clear. If you have 2 different special weapons, regardless of if you have a 3rd, 4th or 42nd one, you can never get the bonus attack under any circumstances.

Page 42 wrote:these models must choose which weapon to use that turn, but they never get the bonus attack for using two weapons.

So in the case of being armed with 2 Lightning Claws and a Power Fist, you declare "I am using 1 Lightning claw (since you only ever use 1 weapon in CC) and the rules for 2 different special weapons come in. Since I have to choose between the LC and the PF, I cannot EVER claim the bonus attack regardless whether my 'second' weapon this turn is the PF or the LC"

Also, attacking my character rather than my argument? Really? I thought you were better than that.

Gwar! wrote:You brought up an utterly irrelevant rule.

Its you who brought up the irrelevant rule. If you actually read the title of the section you'll see its called "Fighting with two single-handed weapons." So we're going to use a little trick called context, these rules are about the weapons the model is fighting with, not the weapons that they aren't using.

Secondly you then focused on a rule called "Two different special weapons." describes a specfic circumstance, namely a model with two different special weapons. However we're talking about a model with three weapons, three is not two, it is three. So even if you want to attempt to claim that owning the powerfist is a factor its not because as read, this rule doesn't apply to the situation.

The rules for 2 different Special Weapons are clear. If you have 2 different special weapons, regardless of if you have a 3rd, 4th or 42nd one, you can never get the bonus attack under any circumstances.

Sorry, I can't see the bit where it talks about 3rd, 4th or the 42nd weapons. Did you make that up?

Also, attacking my character rather than my argument? Really? I thought you were better than that.

Oh, sorry about that. I must have forgotten you're the only one allowed to be act like an internet tough guy on these boards. From now on I'll sugar coat my responses for you.

-Shrug- Whatever. I've put out what the rules say. If you want to continue living in a fantasy land go ahead.

I see now that what little respect I had for you was clearly not warranted. If you want to act like a child, go right ahead.

Gwar, you really do love to get people up in arms, don't you? It's really fun to watch, in case you ever wondered.

In reference to Hymirl's question about having 42 CC weapons, I think Gwar was making an exaggeration to get a point across... I seriously doubt he thinks you can take more than 2 types of special weapons.

But from reading the book does look like if you are armed with 2 of the same special CC weapons and a second type of special weapon you do have to choose which one you'll be using that turn.

I think that if you had, say, a single LC and a single PF you could only use one of them per phase and would not gain a bonus attack, right?

Obviously this is all new to me as all I play is bugs and eldar... I'm still trying to clear this up in my head. Any further guidance would be appreciated.

Grunt_For_Christ wrote:Gwar, you really do love to get people up in arms, don't you? It's really fun to watch, in case you ever wondered.

I live to please others

Grunt_For_Christ wrote:In reference to Hymirl's question about having 42 CC weapons, I think Gwar was making an exaggeration to get a point across... I seriously doubt he thinks you can take more than 2 types of special weapons.

Yes thank you. That was exactly my Point. Glad to see some people have more than 2 braincells.

Grunt_For_Christ wrote:But from reading the book does look like if you are armed with 2 of the same special CC weapons and a second type of special weapon you do have to choose which one you'll be using that turn.

Yes that is exactly my point. You only ever "use" one CCW, if you have a second one it sometimes allows you to gain a bonus attack. If you have 3 Special CCW, you pick one to use, then pick a second one to try and claim an extra attack, which is negated by the "2 Different Special Weapons"

Grunt_For_Christ wrote:I think that if you had, say, a single LC and a single PF you could only use one of them per phase and would not gain a bonus attack, right?

Yes that's correct. It's the same if you have, for example, 2 Power Fists and a Power Weapon (Like Calgar). It's to balance the flexibility you gain by being able to choose to strike at Initiative or not.

Gwar! wrote:-Shrug- Whatever. I've put out what the rules say. If you want to continue living in a fantasy land go ahead.

You're the one living in a fantasy land here, I've demonstrated why your point of view doesn't stand up to close inspection. Secondly, its quite amusing to see how little you like your own medicine... you love to bully, insult and belittle to get your way in debates but as soon as some-one does it to you, you throw all your toys out the pram and start acting... what was the lovely word you used earlier? Butthurt?

Perhaps the phrase you ought to consider is 'do unto others..'

Grunt_For_Christ wrote:But from reading the book does look like if you are armed with 2 of the same special CC weapons and a second type of special weapon you do have to choose which one you'll be using that turn.

I agree with this point of view as its consistent with the idea that weapons not being used to fight with are ignored, for example a literal reading of the rules for powerfists and lightningclaws indicate that they give their bonuses to the model as opposed to specifically 'a model attacking with that weapon', but we all know that you can't gain bonus weapon's abilities at the same time.

Theres no prevention against using the two weapons you want to fight with, again I reference the title of the section as a reminder that the rules are about fighting with weapons not owning weapons.

It seemed very clear to me that you were exaggerating... I think people take themselves far too seriously on this site for the most part.

I think we're in agreement here. Which is great, because the whole marine thing is terribly confusing to me, as I don't play them at all. Thanks Gwar!

Hymirl can you show where it says the "unused" weapons are ignored?

Like, a Concise sentence that says it rather than you having to twist about rules?

Gwar! wrote:Hymirl can you show where it says the "unused" weapons are ignored?

Like, a Concise sentence that says it rather than you having to twist about rules?

Can you show where it says they count?

Hymirl wrote:

Gwar! wrote:-Shrug- Whatever. I've put out what the rules say. If you want to continue living in a fantasy land go ahead.

You're the one living in a fantasy land here, I've demonstrated why your point of view doesn't stand up to close inspection. Secondly, its quite amusing to see how little you like your own medicine... you love to bully, insult and belittle to get your way in debates but as soon as some-one does it to you, you throw all your toys out the pram and start acting... what was the lovely word you used earlier? Butthurt?

Perhaps the phrase you ought to consider is 'do unto others..'

Grunt_For_Christ wrote:But from reading the book does look like if you are armed with 2 of the same special CC weapons and a second type of special weapon you do have to choose which one you'll be using that turn.

I agree with this point of view as its consistent with the idea that weapons not being used to fight with are ignored, for example a literal reading of the rules for powerfists and lightningclaws indicate that they give their bonuses to the model as opposed to specifically 'a model attacking with that weapon', but we all know that you can't gain bonus weapon's abilities at the same time.

Theres no prevention against using the two weapons you want to fight with, again I reference the title of the section as a reminder that the rules are about fighting with weapons not owning weapons.

Ok, so I have the whole multiple weapons thing right...

And to be completely fair, the 'do unto others' definitely is something worth considering. You're right that there is a line between being stern and being a reveler and being too aggressive to the point of excess. Good fun all the way around.

1hadhq wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Hymirl can you show where it says the "unused" weapons are ignored?

Like, a Concise sentence that says it rather than you having to twist about rules?

Can you show where it says they count?

There isn't. And that's my point. You have to use a certain amount of intelligence to work out the rules.

Gwar! wrote:

1hadhq wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Hymirl can you show where it says the "unused" weapons are ignored?

Like, a Concise sentence that says it rather than you having to twist about rules?

Can you show where it says they count?

There isn't. And that's my point. You have to use a certain amount of intelligence to work out the rules.

Thats not a point. Just a bad joke.

Any serious answer available ?

Is it so hard to accept that models with 2 arms can wield only 1-2 weapons?
Do we need RAW to tell us this?

Boni do apply only if the weapon is used in this CC. Spare weapons are just ignored in case of any boni/mali.
You will apply the rules from page 42 on the used combo, no need to care about anything else the model may carry.

Is it so hard to accept that models with 2 arms can wield only 1-2 weapons?
Do we need RAW to tell us this?

yes we do

Gwar! wrote:

Is it so hard to accept that models with 2 arms can wield only 1-2 weapons?
Do we need RAW to tell us this?

yes we do

I doubt " WE" ...

Must be lonely on the "needs RAW for everything bandwagon"

Odd I thought people who played Warhammer 40k liked to play by the rules, as opposed to Househammer 40k where we just throw away the rulebook.

Let the hate brew... Yes, just a few more posts and I will have the power of the blood god!

I think we should lock this thread now, for real. This is going nowhere now.

Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

Lordhat wrote:

Drudge Dreadnought wrote:Why would you use vanguard at all? They are terrible.

This statement is completely untrue. I've been fielding a Vanguard squad for quite a while now, and they're awesome.

High cost unit with inefficient wargear prices that die as easily as regular marines? The double claw jump pack vanguard being talked about here are 60 points a model. You could have 3 regular assault marines for that. How is that good?

Well I run my VV's with LC/SS. Second, with this combo, they die MUCH harder than normal assault marines, especially given the fact that with the reduced number of attacks means they have a good chance of still being locked during your opponent's shooting phase. They very rarely fail to accomplish the tasks I give them. Are they as efficient as an assault marine? Depends on what you want to use them for. Chaos Terminators and Obliterators have VERY good reason to fear this unit. Large units of Berserkers, not so much. The strength of the Heroic intervention is the ability to PICK exactly what enemy unit you hit with them. Remember, no unit exists within a vacuum; use this unit hit targets that tactical marines will have trouble shooting to death, and keep the VV's away from units that can drop a high volume of wounds on their heads.

Also, Lash fears this unit, as it can effectively hide for several turns, jumping from CC to CC. Haven't faced Orks yet, no insight there. Against Eldar and DE, use them to help Combat Res against the Incubi and Harlies; making them chose between the squishy unit they charged originally, or the new 3+ inv. save that just jumped in.

Even as a suicide squad, these guys rock.... The afore mentioned beserker squads? Hit them first, take away their FC, kill 3-4 before dying, and if even one VV surives you can hold that unit right where it is until you can get another unit into position to really hurt them.

Yes, sometimes they die horribly, but that's a rare thing, and I've yet to be disappointed with their performance.

I could see a small squad being useful that way, thanks for the explanation.

Gwar! wrote:

Can you show where it says they count?

There isn't. And that's my point. You have to use a certain amount of intelligence to work out the rules.

Hilarious, attempting to turn around and claim the absence of any evidence for your argument is your point? That was my point at the top of the page...

However, I'm glad you finally admit that you don't actually have any proof and are just trying to claim your opinion is the only acceptable way of playing. Not a very consistent approach given that you like to keep announcing that people shouldn't be playing houserule 40K, but then again you don't know anything about consistency so thats not surprising.

The only facts that actually exist is one rule says you get the bonus attack, and one says you don't. The one you give priority to is simply a matter of choice and interpretation, either you take the draconian view that all weapons always are being used in some sort of comedy combat weapon juggling act, or you grow up, notice that a model only has two hands and therefore only consider the use of two of his weapons at any one time.

I know which one I'm going to chose. I like playing Warhammer 40K, not Warhammer-whip-out-some-arbitrary-made-up-loophole-at-every-opportunity 40K that you seem to enjoy.