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I have a 40k game coming up against one of my closest friends. He plays guard and has done for about three years. During that time he has never won a game. Does anyone think that I should attempt to throw the next game? (Subtly of course)

You try to take a less "hard" army list.

yani wrote:I have a 40k game coming up against one of my closest friends. He plays guard and has done for about three years. During that time he has never won a game. Does anyone think that I should attempt to throw the next game? (Subtly of course)

Nope, give it your best shot. You cannot control everything and neither can he. Just see how the dice roll.

Take a really flavourful army list (read here as absolute crap) and then try your hardest to beat that shnoz out of him. That way you tried your best, just gave yourself a handycap.

I wouldn't throw the game, but I would try to help him with his list, point out some advice during the game, or something like that. If he's just not into winning (I.E. Like most OnG players, they're just into playing, don't care about winning) then don't throw the game.

My best friend plays Bretonnia, and is absolutely horrible. He can't play for beans. But, he is my friend, and I often, to help him out, switch armies, play small little campaigns, etc. I've beaten his Bretonnians with OnG and he's beat my Bretonnian list (using his models) with his OnG list (using my models)

There is no right or wrong , aslong as both sides are having fun. Why is it he losing though? bad moves? or just not powerful army list? Some people make list just to be able to take the models they like the most and dont mind losing.
Is your friend that type? If so, maybe you can do the same

Thanks for the advice
ok load up on helions and mandrakes. Sounds like fun
We both have quite small armys but with mine I realy planed purchases so I have little flexibility
I actually have his list basicaly its stuff you can easily make out of boxed sets with little extra weapons sprues and models. So heavy weapon squads, line squads with nade launchers ect

He is probably trying to play according to the fluff, which is not the way to win. Unfortunately, the way they write the codexes, there are only a couple of no-brainer units that will always win you the game, and unless you ruthlessly abuse the, you're hurting your chances. Unless you play space marines, their entire codex is one great big no-brainer.

I would advise against throwing the game, it's bad enough not being able to win but when your opponent is TRYING to lose you might as well just not play.

I am sure if your friend won that would certainly make their day.

G

Wow, 3 years of guard without a win - that takes guts, i would have switch armies long ago...play less competativlely or an objectives game when I finally beat my brothers BA army (earlier today), it took me 6 tries and getting enough orks to acutally point a list (and take a break from playing my tau) and it made my day, but i digress...

Does he not have any other army that he could use? Then again give him a month and he should be very happy with his guard.

Question does he play the same list every time? If so perhaps you could just change up you list to have some issues with anti-tank or something, perhaps say your using a new experimental list...just some ideas. I agree though, having him win a game before the new guard dex comes out will be a way to end the old guard dex.

Hes seriously considering changing armies but is going to wait until the new codex. He dosn't have another army and stuck with guard cos it was cheaper than starting again.
Not all of us have enough money to buy a new army. Ok the new list I have come up with has a squad of mandrakes and a bunch of helions so it should be a fun game.

What size are the armies just curiouse?

1000 pts

Well thats probably the reason right there.

3 years of playing the same 1000 point army ( no space for variations ) He probably bought some units that are naturally weaker against your units.

I mean like, if you are rock, and he is scissor, the outcome will be pretty predictable till paper is thrown in right?

1000 pts. is really tough for guard as well. maybe a larger game if possibly would be better?

I think you're going to see some changes with the new guard dex....

Honestly, if he's been playing for 3 years without winning a single game... he must be in it for something other than just "the win." He's probably just not a very good player, and if you decide to go easy on him, it could likely hurt his feelings as he will be able to tell.

And if your friend does not have the models for a larger game, why not just run some proxy models? Not only are they easier to swap out and change, and cheaper to use, they can help you figure out what models you might want to pick up next. The big bag o' bases that GW sells is perfect - just paint some letters on some bases and you're good to go for a friendly game.

You should also do "after the battle" reports, talk it over with him. I find those interesting and fun, not to mention educational.

Alternatively, you could coach him during the game. I played against a new (playing for 1 month) Ork player today, and coached him through the game. He didn't know that Deffkoptas can outflank, bikes can turboboost, etc.

And yes, I lost. And it was still more satisfying than stomping a guy who didn't know all the tricks.

Well, your friend is getting a new book soon too, so that may well change their army.

I play with my friend Sean a lot and I'll tell you, he doesn't win much. It's not for want of trying or lack of skill, Sean's a great player and probably the best sportsman I've ever run across. Now, I've certainly reaped the benefits of it, because playing against Sean made me get good, fast.

One of the really nice things though is how we play. It tends to present itself as a nice, constructive puzzle. If we think something's broken, we try to kill it. Sometimes it works and sometimes, it's really broken. It's really that in game collaboration that keeps me playing and makes us both better players IMO anyway.

Iorek wrote:You should also do "after the battle" reports, talk it over with him. I find those interesting and fun, not to mention educational.

Alternatively, you could coach him during the game. I played against a new (playing for 1 month) Ork player today, and coached him through the game. He didn't know that Deffkoptas can outflank, bikes can turboboost, etc.

And yes, I lost. And it was still more satisfying than stomping a guy who didn't know all the tricks.

Exactly,

If you really want to be a friend helping another friend; then play the game with a complete open dialogue on what you are planning to do and what you are afraid of in their army. This helps him understand that a major 'aspect' of this game is understanding your opponents 'battle plan' and countering it. Like when setting up, you can say "these guys are planning to flank your army here, because I see a weakness here." etc...

I know what many of you are thinking. But I have done this a lot, and this is without a doubt one of the best teaching tools for this game and creates an environment where you truly don't throw the game, but give your opponent the opportunity to make the proper counters because he knows your intentions.

You say he has been playing for 3 years, this is a long time and guard are not 'weak'. He seems to be just having trouble adapting to the guard playing mentality.

You could just handicap yourself a bit. Maybe take a unit that you like the modeling on as opposed to being the most effective choice.

Also maybe if you do win make sure you do a quick 'after action' discussion to politely point out what mistakes each of you made.

I let my kid win at least half, if not more, of the games we play!

I agree that it is a good idea for you to design a "weaker" army for yourself. But then play to win with it.

I have thrown games sometimes - especially if I sense that a friend is close to quitting the game altogether. But it isn't something to do often.

Actually, when I did that I paid for it - because the poor noob, thinking it was a legit win, trash-talked about it all around the store from then on - about how he OWNed me, and "remember that game when" and "I used a similar tactic when I SLAUGHTERED Sol that time," and all this BS.

Take care when throwing a game. Make sure it is for the right reasons. And definitely don't make a habit of it.

Sometimes unfortunately a lack of cash can be a real handicap in this game. I know my orks were really uncompetative for a very long time because I just picked up the models I liked and never had the money to get a lot of the better units. These days I have a completist mentality with them: I own at least one of every unit available, usually max strength with all options. This makes it easier for me to make competative lists, but it did cost me a LOT of money.

Iorek wrote:You should also do "after the battle" reports, talk it over with him. I find those interesting and fun, not to mention educational.

Alternatively, you could coach him during the game. I played against a new (playing for 1 month) Ork player today, and coached him through the game. He didn't know that Deffkoptas can outflank, bikes can turboboost, etc.

And yes, I lost. And it was still more satisfying than stomping a guy who didn't know all the tricks.

I would third this one. My girlfriend absolutely loves our game. She can't remember stats for anything so I always help her out, but first take the teacher role and challenge her to remember things on her own. Every single game I find myself having to help just a little less and it's an absolute joy to see her grow. Maybe you should help him out during the game too... She often asks me "would you shoot at unit x instead of y with squad z?" I always give her the pros and cons of her proposed moves and always let her make the decisions.

I actually used to design weaker lists against her but it never felt right and she knew it. Once she got a hold of some of the statlines and the little tricks she opposed the weaker lists. So I started just experimenting with different lists I'd never considered. Last night we had a tiny 500 pt and I used a completely shooty eldar list against my bugs (whom she loves). Basically I just wanted to see what would happen. I gave her 2 MC's, genestealers, and gaunts. I had reapers, rangers, lots of DA's, and a farseer.

I'd never used completely un-mech or a complete non CC pointy-ear list before. I realized I was behind the ball so every move was tactical. Basically it came down to my reapers shooting across the board into the last 2 stealers which were controlling the only objective anyone had control of. Both hit, both wounded, both saved. It literally came down to 2 wounds. I played well and so did she and I ended up having 1 single dire avenger and 1 dark reaper. She had the tyrant, fex, 2 stealers, 1 single gaunt. It worked out great and me pointing out little things like reminding her that she had feeder tendrils on the stealers it changed her ideas before her assault phase. Just reminding her the she had certain things, and what certain units can and cannot do (i.e. rippers cannot fleet).

So I'd say that you could try something new and always stay one step ahead of him to help guide him into the best options... Then let him choose which one suits him and help him maximize his firepower.

Cryonicleech wrote:I wouldn't throw the game, but I would try to help him with his list, point out some advice during the game, or something like that. If he's just not into winning (I.E. Like most OnG players, they're just into playing, don't care about winning) then don't throw the game.

My best friend plays Bretonnia, and is absolutely horrible. He can't play for beans. But, he is my friend, and I often, to help him out, switch armies, play small little campaigns, etc. I've beaten his Bretonnians with OnG and he's beat my Bretonnian list (using his models) with his OnG list (using my models)

I agree. help your friend out and show him how to beat your army. Then in the future as he gets better, up the difficulty.