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T5 now! Meaning no longer lascannon/lance/missile launcher bait.

Also, an idea I had for laughs: put 5 ogryns in a Chim, drive around with the top down, park within 12" and fire 15 S5 ripper shots. They're even BS 3 for some reason...

The increase in points of +15 per Ogryn makes them not very useful for their points cost. They also compete for elite slots with Psyker team, Marbo and Daemon Hunter Inquisitor with 2 Mystics.

I have to agree that point for point a squad of 5 ogryn can annihilate a squad of terminators in cc.
for the extra cost they have become a lot better than in the last codex.
- Stubborn.
- Ripper is stronger and more shots.
- Furious charge
- And T5, T5... did I already say T5?
- 3 base attacks

The largest "drawback" within the unit is the lack of armour, as bolters can cut them down. But, with the predominance of cover in 5th that is not as much of a problem, they are not MC so they can benefit from cover easily, that is almost as good as carapace armour. That, or you can place them in the now cheaper chimeras

Do Ogryns still have the "It's dark in dere!" special rule?

Nofasse 'Eadhunta wrote:Do Ogryns still have the "It's dark in dere!" special rule?

Nope... and when they cost almost the same as GK Terminators with Storm Shields, you just have to shake your head and ask why?

They do not have it any more. they are still bulky (2 models).

Iago wrote:I have to agree that point for point a squad of 5 ogryn can annihilate a squad of terminators in cc.

Not even close.

Termies, especially the assault version, are the golden boys of SMs...Orgyns, however, come up sorely lacking, especially with all of the other new goodies in the IG dex. As for going toe-to-toe with Termies, my money is on the termies (again especially the assault variety) every time.

so should I worry about keeping my Ogryns or go ahead and sell it, and invest in GKTermies?

But it is because of all the goodies in the dex that Ogryns excell. As of every unit in the game it is all relative to what your list is/what the tactics are and the skill of the commander behind the army. I feel that ogryns fit a particular role in the IG army. Mainstay tarpit that can actually do damage.
Rough riders are one hit wonders. (damage)
Conscripts are tarpits but lack the hitting power.

Ogryns in the right place at the right time will turn the tide of battle. Combine with their stubborn and say a regimental standard neerby. As for the vs termies, yes money will be on assault terminators. But there are also "regular" terminators, those are the ones I was referring to. Even if they dont breack the termies in one turn, or even two, thats when you can help them with something that can tip the scales, or even if you use them as a sacrificial unit that will hold long enough for you to re deploy to counter the threat on said flank or what not.

ifyouseekamy wrote:so should I worry about keeping my Ogryns or go ahead and sell it, and invest in GKTermies?

I'd get rid of the Ogryns if you can make money on them...

Rough riders or GK Termies are much better counter assault option now...

Iago wrote:Rough riders are one hit wonders. (damage)
Conscripts are tarpits but lack the hitting power.

Ogryns in the right place at the right time will turn the tide of battle. Combine with their stubborn and say a regimental standard neerby. As for the vs termies, yes money will be on assault terminators. But there are also "regular" terminators, those are the ones I was referring to. Even if they dont breack the termies in one turn, or even two, thats when you can help them with something that can tip the scales, or even if you use them as a sacrificial unit that will hold long enough for you to re deploy to counter the threat on said flank or what not.

Any unit can turn the tide of battle at the right place and the right time. Problem with Ogryns is that they're a very expensive unit whose job can be done with cheaper units. GK termies are much harder to kill, and will do a lot of damage back, and are basically the same points. Rough Riders are a one hit wonder, but most of the time, that's all you'll need. The only downside to Rough Riders is that they take up a fast attack slot. Most of the time, in a 1750-2000 point game, you won't have enough points to fill up those slots with Vaklyries/Vendettas anyway (unless it's your whole army). So it really doesn't matter.

Nine times out of ten, rough riders are going to do the job ogryns do for half the cost.

The "job" I am referring to is not -just- the killy. Rought riders are amazing at charging in and killing off a unit. But cant "hold" the line. They have a better charge range. And yes, for about 105pts you get 10 wounds that are hard hitters lots of high strength attacks that ignore armour. But once, once and only once.
With an extra few upgrades here and there they will be almost as expensive as a basic unit of ogryn.
Comparing the two units, you get 9 wounds, but T5, decent ammount of short range shooting. Charging and receiving the charge, the ogyns as I said before will not fulfill the killyness of the riders, but will stick arround longer. They are easier to hide (10 rr are hard to hide)unless in reseve and can take a chimera.

Compare ogryns to what they used to be, and I think now they are a lot more viable than they were.

So cost wise the ogryns and the rr are not that far appart, and in a slug fest (say the rr dont break the unit that they charged) the ogryns would end up comming out on top as they have the staying power that rr do not have.

yaaaaa, but it's like $55 for 5 GK termies... lol, which is technically cheaper, cuz Ogryn blisters are like $20 each.... oh well, termies it is lol

I'm not sure all this Ogryn hate is warranted. They're not an uber unit, but they look pretty good to me.

Hmm, yarrick gives reroll to hit to his squad on the turn he charges. Apart from that I couldn't find many useful synergies with ogres and the named characters. It's a shame really, I think they are cute.

Centurian99 wrote:I'm not sure all this Ogryn hate is warranted. They're not an uber unit, but they look pretty good to me.

\
One of the things I actually love about the IG codex, is that there are no uber units. Most of the units have a use and fit into the army nicely, but they're not going to win the game on their own. Some are of course going to be more versatile than others, but they're going to have to work together to be effective. Units can be too specialized though. Having Ogryns, which are a dedicated assault unit, with nothing else in the army that can really help them assault well is kind of weak. They just don't work well with the rest of the army. Guard doesn't need to assault, they only need to stop assaults. Ogryns don't do this twice as well as Rough Riders (which are half the cost), and they don't even do it as well as GK's with Storm Shields.

I have a similar problem with Storm Troopers which are also too specialized. They are awesome at killing marines, but not twice as awesome as veterans (which are half the price), so they're not really worth the points. If they could do more than just that one job, they'd be useful, but since they're so expensive, and can't do anything else, they're not worth taking.

Double post sorry...

Centurian99 wrote:I'm not sure all this Ogryn hate is warranted. They're not an uber unit, but they look pretty good to me.

I think the hate is fully warranted, and I'm a little confused that Iago defending them. (Is this part of some elaborate plot to turn us against Desdemona?)

Ogryns can wail on low toughness models with poor armor saves. But IG almost never have a problem with these models. What Ogryns cannot do is crack through tough models with good saves. They don't have power weapons or rending. And they also don't have Strength 6 or Initiative 3 anymore, meaning that their Furious Charge ability only gets them back to where they were before the new changes.

Since Combat Resolution is based on wounds inflicted, Ogryns can't even act as a "tarpit" against these tough units, since they've lost two points of Leadership. "Stubborn" only goes so far; a LD 7 unit will still fail nearly 1/2 of its morale checks, and an Initiative of 2 means that the Ogryns are very likely to be wiped out.

Not working with a priest or Creed (multiple Furious Charges is redundant) is the final nail in the coffin.

Hehe, (its all her fault after all)

I can see all the arguments against the orgryn. And I must agree that they "seem" to be a unit that is not "worth" it. And in some ways it is true. Then again, when building an army "the sum of its parts" seems to be the way that works best.

@Dave: To navigate the LD problem I would do 2 things. a) get a commissar lord to give them LD 10. or b) keep a regimental standard near to re roll that fateful ld7. S5 base is not to shabby and with average rolls you are looking at a few wounds. T5 goes a long way and I think can be put to good use on models that have multiple wounds. A space marine bike for example, yes you get the armour, yes maybe you get the vet sarge, but one ogryn is 3 wounds, and costs 2 bikes. Its a bargain IMO. Also factor in the cost reduction to things like platoon squads and other weapons in the list, and the point increase that the ogryn "suffered" suddenly does not seem to be as much of an issue. Almost everything got cheaper.

I can also see the ogryn as a unit that is designed not to be a dead beat choice, take the ogryn but you will have to learn to use them to the best of their ability. You might have to move some things around th elist, and they might not be the "competitive alternative" to anything, but they are there. They look cool, they fit a role in the IG list and personally I would like to use them.

Cheers

Iago wrote:
@Dave: To navigate the LD problem I would do 2 things. a) get a commissar lord to give them LD 10. or b) keep a regimental standard near to re roll that fateful ld7. S5 base is not to shabby and with average rolls you are looking at a few wounds. T5 goes a long way and I think can be put to good use on models that have multiple wounds. A space marine bike for example, yes you get the armour, yes maybe you get the vet sarge, but one ogryn is 3 wounds, and costs 2 bikes. Its a bargain IMO. Also factor in the cost reduction to things like platoon squads and other weapons in the list, and the point increase that the ogryn "suffered" suddenly does not seem to be as much of an issue. Almost everything got cheaper.

So this makes them even more expensive and even less flexible...

Im not arguing their "felibility" but they do provide an anchor to a firebase. Abeing within 12" of the standard is not that hard considering a few of your units will have to be within 12" of the officer (or chimera) already to benefit from orders and the like. Unless you use creed.

Anyhow, these are my thoughts. In conclusion I would like to say that -yes- they are worth it. To me. I would always take a unit of veterans before I take ogryn, but I think that now their use has increased from the last codex and that they will be used more often in IG armies that can work around their cost and evident "drawbacks".

They are one of the best counter attack units in the game, who's going to shoot at them when:

a) you're an assaulty army so don't have much shooting

b) a shooty army so everything else is far more scary

I dunno...there's a very limited number of things that I think Guard can't deal with now, with the right builds and weapon loadouts. Massed heavy assault units (th/ss terminators & bloodcrushers come to mind) are about the only type of unit that guard shooting is going to run into problems with...and to be honest, the Guard really shouldn't have a unit that can top them in HTH.

Guard shouldn't have a premier assault unit. But what they needed was a premier shock/counter-assault unit. Ogryns fit the bill nicely. They're not a one-size-fits-all answer (and neither are rough riders) but as a unit that can put a stop to an enemy unit that's been weakened, but is still strong against Guard squads, they're nearly perfect.

Ogryn do seem pretty well suited to going toe to toe with TH/SS termies. Assuming they get the charge (they are a counter charge unit, after all), five of them will get 10 shots, for 5 hits, 10/3 wounds and 5/9 of a failed save. Assuming the termies survive, the ogryn get 20 attacks (does the bonehead get a bonus?), for 10 hits, 20/3 wounds, or 10/9 failed save. That's a dead termie. The remaining four swing back, for 4 hits, or 10/3 wounds or one pulled ogryn. They have a reasonable chance to hold the line even at LD7, and can grind it out with them for a while. That's assuming no supporting fire anywhere.

I'm not sure they're worth including in anything less than a fairly large army, but their ability to take S8 hits makes them pretty decent. I'm more concerned with the opportunity cost of a decent sized squad (210 pts for 5) than I am worried about them failing at their job. A demolisher with plasma sponsons is probably more generally useful, as is a Vendetta with 10 vets and three meltas (only 20pts more).

Rough riders are going to be far better at slowing down Terminators simply because they drop their save to a 3+. Yeah they won't survive more than a turn, but all you need is a speed bump and they have a much better chance of actually killing a few on the chage. Stopping them for a turn should be enough to be able to mow them down with massed fire the next turn.

They do all this for half the cost and will be more effective at slowing down any other assault unit. They will slaughter units like eldar or elite 'nids on the charge as well.

Think about this: you are playing against a gunline army with troops sitting on objectives. So he finds your guns and big scary tanks arrayed against him and he logicaly directs his shooting at them. Now visualise the Chimera loaded with ogryns that goes straight for those pathfinders/Tacticals/CSM/Gretchin ? Do you see the light Brothers? The ogryns will assault into cover and seriously clubber the opponent. Maybe they can't stand face to face with a pure assault unit but how many players keep such a unit in their backfield?
A Mech IG army with alot of chimeras and tanks will have more immediate threats for the enemy than a solitary chimera supported by maybe a HH. Or maybe Lt Al' Rahim allows them to outflank?

Three ogryns cost more than 10 rough riders. The Ogryn die, the rough riders kill....... I can not make this simplier people.

The problem with rough riders is that they are a huge target for enemy shooting. Ogryn can shrug off most light shooting, but Rough riders take it on the chin (stuff like snipers, heavy bolters, whirlwinds).

I stand by my theory that in 5th edition, IG don't need counter assault units anymore. three ogryn cost the same as 2.5 SWS with triple flamers....

konst80hummel wrote:Think about this: you are playing against a gunline army with troops sitting on objectives. So he finds your guns and big scary tanks arrayed against him and he logicaly directs his shooting at them. Now visualise the Chimera loaded with ogryns that goes straight for those pathfinders/Tacticals/CSM/Gretchin ? Do you see the light Brothers? The ogryns will assault into cover and seriously clubber the opponent. Maybe they can't stand face to face with a pure assault unit but how many players keep such a unit in their backfield?
A Mech IG army with alot of chimeras and tanks will have more immediate threats for the enemy than a solitary chimera supported by maybe a HH. Or maybe Lt Al' Rahim allows them to outflank?

I think this how Ogryns have to be used to be really worth it. Their abilities mean they beat the tar out of all those shooting units, and their toughness means that truly ridiculous amounts of firepower have to be directed at them to bring them down. They'll wade through a gunline in close combat, and absorb a huge amount of fire if it is directed towards them. I think their base size gives them a great chance to spread, not only to avoid templates, but also to multicharge vehicles, which they should prove rather dangerous against.

When GK Terminators are a cost effective alternative something is very seriously wrong.