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I'm just wondering about this, as I usually just print up a list and carry it down to the game shop. But I have run into some people that will ask me what I am playing then they will "tailor" their list based on my army.

Using warhammer as an example, I used to have a vampire army, and would show up at the store. The Lizardman player would always make his units immune to psychology. At first it didn't bother me, but the fact that he did it EVERY time I played him with my vampires did get annoying.

So whats the general consensus DAKKA?


GG

Nope. I make take-all comers lists, and use them, regardless of what army my opponent is playing, or what sorts of units they're bringing.

i make take all comers lists, i do not tailer and i look down upon it. If you have to tailor your list to win a game then you might want to find another hobby.

Depends. If we are both going to do it, then I do. I tend to assume we won't though, and build an all comers list.

Usually, all comers. But if someone REALLY, REALLY needs a spanking, then it is designed to kill (insert army name here) time.

Tailoring a list for an opponent AFTER you see his force/list is borderline cheating. You are straight up giving yourself an unfair advantage over the other person by not being ready for anything.

Now if you know the guy and he always runs similar lists, that's fine. But if someone did that to me I would immediately change my list and not let him see it until his force was made.

Switch the scene around and see if that guy likes it. Tailoring your list after seeing your opponents makes you a HUGE TFG.

So how do you avoid this problem? I mean how do you avoid being taken advantage of? Also it seems like this is the kind of thing you have to go through with a person once before you find out he is doing it. I guess you could bring 2 armies, then fake him out, and say never mind I'm going to play orks instead of space marines.

GG

Yeah, you're gonna have to learn through experience, and then simply treat him as he treats you. Not a big problem at all, if you're cool with the odd loss.

I typically play a balanced list that's good against everyone, but tomorrow I'll be playing a 1v1v1, which has made it rather interesting. I know full well what the other guys are bringing but I'm still trying to make the best list, not the best list against one type of army.

The problem with me is that everyone knows I only play one army... So even though I have 3 very different lists, everyone knows that basically this or that will always work well against me. So what did I do? Start an eldar force without anyone knowing!

Nope, it's a bitch move.

Bitch = Guy who needs to get more friends and stop playing with toy soldiers so much.

We normally play with a "sideboard". Essentially, you can swap out about 10% of your total point value to tailor your list to the mission or opponent. This prevents matchups like the guy who brought IG expecting to play footslogger Orks, only the Ork player didn't show up and now you're facing a 'Nidzilla list, where 80% of the IG's weapons are physically incapable of hurting the 'Zillas. Or you play gunline IG and roll...damn. Can't remember the name of the mission - the one where you have to move longways across the table while the other guy sits and shoots at you. Being able to take a crapton of Chimeras is the only possible way you've got a chance to make it.

If it prevents a completely unfair or unfun matchup for one of the players, we're fine with it. Only allowing 10% of the list to be swapped out forces you to keep the core of your list the same, but allows you to match up just a little more evenly against highly specialized lists that depend on being able to victimize "take all comers" lists. After all, who wants to face an all-Mechanized Steel Legion list with a list made to fight footslogger Orks? If you can't swap out those Heavy Bolters for Lascannons, you may as well concede before setup and save the time for a game with somebody else...*




*I had that happen my last game - I expected to play an Ork player, and when he didn't show, my IG faced a 100% mechanized Steel Legion list. I had three (3) Lascannons in total, and everything else was flamers and heavy bolters. What's the point in playing that game if you can't swap out wargear?

It really depends on the situation. When I first started playing WHFB, it was a bunch of my friends and I in our own league. Consequently, even though on tournament day you might not know exactly what armies you would be facing that day, because everyone had only one army they were playing the league, you'd tweak your armylist before you came if there was a certain army giving you a particularly hard time. (Granted, there were a number of times that was done and then the person with said army didn't show up for that day's tourney and I was S.O.L.) Sometimes this made for some really cool grudge matches.

But someone tweaking their army on the spot to deal with your army? Nah, man, I agree with the sentiment that it's practically cheating.

If you're tailoring your army based on the local metagame, that's one thing. But if you're tailoring your army for a certain opponent (unless both of you know you'll be playing each other and are okay with it) that's not cool.

That's why the people I play against all have balanced lists that are completely un-tailored. That way there's absolutely not accusation of cheating and you can get to gaming more quickly. But that's a very interesting idea you guys have there.

One thing I forgot to mention is that in the White Dwarf Battle reports, they seem to indicate that both players are tailoring their lists. It seems that if both people tailor, that could make for a real interesting (possibly balanced) game. Maybe this is something to think about.


GG

I tend to bring all commers lists when I build an army to begin with then expand out so I can get some variety in different games. However I do own 3 different armies so I can just decide to bring a different army next week.

In my gaming group we tend to say that lists can't be seen before deployment however once the game starts (via deployment) then lists are visible and fixed. If i do ask an opponent before the game starts what his list is I don't expect specifics just "oh its mechdar, or BT" I then use this info to figure out a strategy to win with my list, not change my list to win.

I would either suggest just telling him its VC but nothing specific. Even then you should realistically expect opponents to know what some generic builds do and what generic weakneeses or strenghts an army has.

Thats kinda similar to what we do at my FLGS, I say what army do you have and then make a list based on that. But never do I know exactly what he is taking, but still it makes for a more balanced game. In WFB i just have the 1 list though.

Swordguy wrote:

*I had that happen my last game - I expected to play an Ork player, and when he didn't show, my IG faced a 100% mechanized Steel Legion list. I had three (3) Lascannons in total, and everything else was flamers and heavy bolters. What's the point in playing that game if you can't swap out wargear?

Aren't you doing what everyone dislikes? You tailored your list to take down an Ork player instead of an all comers list. Suck it up coz your gamble didn't pay off. No, you don't get to change weapons and the point of playing is to suck it up because you decided against using a balanced all commers list and you attempt to gain an unsportsman like advantage failed. I personally refuse to allow people to change their list once they know what I have - I take all comers lists that have barely changed in 2 to 3 years (or when there is a new codex).

Tailoring lists unless agreed in advance by both parties is definitely a TFG trait.

In general, no.

However, that should be qualified. If I'm going to a game store, to play a pickup game, I'll bring a printed list, so as to be respectful to my opponent, and that's what I'll play. And, obviously, in tournaments we run standard lists.

But, if both participants want to, then we'll do some limited tailoring. Along the lines of what they do in the WD battle reports. I know what codex my opponent is using, they know what I'm using, and we can use that information. But certainly not what specific models they're bringing.

And, sometimes, if one of the regular players is bringing something somewhat extreme, they'll post their list (or even just what extreme type build they're using) to our listserve so that the opponent doesn't end up totally flatfooted. (This is the sort of thing I'd do if I was running a list with multiple land raiders, to make sure that my opponents at least had the foresight to bring a couple of anti-tank tools.)

Always all-comers lists. Then again, I mostly play Sisters, so the decision is usually which squads have Flamers, and which Meltaguns...

I bring an all comers list to just about every game I play.

I also tend to bring lists tailored to my opponent, if I am planning to fight someone in particular. I tailor this list BEFORE seeing the other list, and inform the person I am doing so.
This allows them to play either way. In fact, I tend to ask my opponent which list I should play.

If I was playing a pick-up game with someone who looked at my list, and then adjusted theirs, I think I would just walk.

I can understand an issue of the opponents list being generally incapable of wounding some things (I play Tyranids), but honestly if they build a list so poor they need to adjust it to wound a MC (or av14, or whatever) then I doubt the game would be worth playing anyway.

Shrug

I let my opponent know what book I'm playing, that's about it. Honestly, the whole point of military intelligence is to bring what you need though. If I'm fighting Orks, why would I need any Icons of Slaanesh? I say let each side know what book you're playing and let them swap a few points. It's not only more realistic but makes the games more fun.

fullheadofhair wrote:
Aren't you doing what everyone dislikes? You tailored your list to take down an Ork player instead of an all comers list. Suck it up coz your gamble didn't pay off. No, you don't get to change weapons and the point of playing is to suck it up because you decided against using a balanced all commers list and you attempt to gain an unsportsman like advantage failed. I personally refuse to allow people to change their list once they know what I have - I take all comers lists that have barely changed in 2 to 3 years (or when there is a new codex).

Tailoring lists unless agreed in advance by both parties is definitely a TFG trait.

Let me point something out real quick - I don't play tournaments. I play exclusively either within my group of friends or pickup games at my local store. Thus, the "win at all costs" mentality takes a significant backseat to "both parties in the game should have fun" idea of play. To whit, one of our store rules for pickup play includes the phrase "if the game setup or basic conditions of the game preclude one player from either having fun or the remote possibility of victory, the game is not to be played in this store."

In this case, my buddy was playing an Ork list, and we both tailored our lists to each other so we'd have a better game. Then he didn't show up, and I could either leave, or play a pickup game against another guy in the store. I explained the situation, and he absolutely agreed that I should re-tailor the list, because otherwise there was no point in playing. Again, just to be clear this wasn't a tournament situation - it a pickup game for fun.

I know I've been off Dakka for a few years years, but I was still under the impression that both parties having an enjoyable time is the goal of 40K, yes? If, in casual play, one person has exactly zero chance in the game because of army selection, what's the harm in retailoring to fit the new situation? If it makes you feel better, I could just say "OK, you win" and then make a list from scratch and we "play" a second time with more equitable lists. Is that somehow better?

Some people just don't make their lists (far) in advance. By game rules, the list must be made before rolling for mission and setup (iirc). I don't see anything wrong with knowing what army you are going to fight before making a list. On the opposite end of the spectrum, most tournaments require a single list to be used throughout the tournament, so a balanced list has maximum flexibility against many different foes.

If I have a pre-arranged match, both of us will usually make our lists ahead of the games, but we will know what army we are fighting. So does it really matter if we make the lists at home or the store? For pick-up matches at the LGSI have several pre-made lists of different points values that I usually take with me. But if my pick-up opponent doesn't also have a pre-made list, i will make up a new one more suited to fighting that particular race.

page 86 of the rules:

1: Agree points limit and chose forces
2: Prepare the battelfield
3: select a mission
4: Deploy forces
5: start the game

I never tailor a list to an opponent, but have had it happen several times. It can grow...annoying.

There are two exceptions. One was a young individual who spent an entire two hour game telling me how my Marines could not defeat his Tau...when I was playing someone else. So I taught him that actually, yes, yes they can. It's amazing what twenty Terminators can do to Tau.

The second is if I'm playing games under 1000 points I'll ask my opponent if he's capable of taking out armored units, and not use them if he doesn't have that ability.

I'd only tailor a list in a campaign, but it would be a general thing, not a specific thing. So if the campaign was Imperium vs Chaos, I'd make lists designed to kill Chaos as a whole rather than a specific Chaos list.

Outside of that I generally never take the same list twice and try to bring something new to every game I play, and the lists themselves are based more around what interests me at the time than any particular meta. The only thing I always try to do is ensure a balacne between anti-tank and anti-infantry - that's just smart playing - but that won't impact on the theme of the list.

I will tailor sometimes, usu. at request or mutual agreement of opponent. It's not always ot my advantage, either. I get a lot of requests from people who want to try something new and different with their army, and want ot see how it fairs against a certain type of list. They'll ask me to play against them with a certain type of list. Like when tau first came out. Guy I know wanted to see if they were really as shooty as they were rumored to be, so he asked if I would play him in a handicap match. We deployed on the short edges of an 8' table, him with obstacles and defensive emplacements. My objective was to have a single model, any single model, reach his tale edge. I was playing a gaunt carpet bug list, with some warrirors and heavy stuff. I've done quite a it of stuff like that.

Jon Garrett wrote: The second is if I'm playing games under 1000 points I'll ask my opponent if he's capable of taking out armored units, and not use them if he doesn't have that ability.

That doesn't bother me for small games, it's a nice courtesy.

If someone doesn't have a list ready that I'm going to play, I will simply tell them either "Tyranids" or "Grey Knights," whichever I am using. He can look at my list AFTER he has made his.

H.B.M.C wrote:I'd only tailor a list in a campaign, but it would be a general thing, not a specific thing. So if the campaign was Imperium vs Chaos, I'd make lists designed to kill Chaos as a whole rather than a specific Chaos list.

That's fine too. Sort of like vague intelligence reports on the enemy.

Actually, I guess I tailor my lists as well most of the time. They are designed to kill Marines, because it is ALL I EVER FIGHT.

I don't really bother too much with my Orks since doing things like tossing a Power Klaw in with a unit tend to make good sense.

I might worry on tailoring things a little more with my Witch Hunters since they have a few more options for upgrading units of Sisters, but even then, I'll probably continue to take the units I want to play round with that day.

I found out a while ago that I could design armies that could eat the competition fairly easily. I'm honestly more entertained by the goofy things that happen like my Trukk running over a Demon Prince or my Weirdboy duking it out with Abbadon for four rounds with nobody managing to even score a hit. That's just me though. For me, the goofy stuff is fun. For other people, it's good competition, or painting or a night out or just winning a game. To each their own.