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What if the Demon Codex was rolled back into the Chaos Space Marines codex, all the Demon units: HQ choices, Troops, Fast attack, Elites and Heavy choices became one book, all the cult troop choice chaos marine units become elites in this new dex. Also all demonic units would gain "demonic assault" as a USR and could be played right alongside the marine units!

Yes or No? and Why?

I vote "NO".

1 Codex is a single big splash every 4 or 5 years, which is too long. Also, the rules are muddier with too many things for GW to try to balance at once. As it is, it's too much work for GW to balance Cult Marines (Lash & PMs) with non-Cult Marines (Oblits). Plus, it closes the door on Chaos Guard (LatD).

I'd like to see 3 (or 4) Chaos Codices total:
- Chaos Daemons
- Chaos Cult Marines (Cult Termies & Daemons, but NO Oblits, Raptors, or Possessed)
- Chaos Marked Marines (themed MoCU SCs, Drop&Charge Generic Daemons2)
- Chaos Guard

The LatD would be a Tier 2 list, only getting updates every couple editions, but at least they would get a list. And it would expand the focus towards GEQs instead of MEQs.

Splitting Cult Marines and non-Cult Marines is more of a balance issue, to allow the non-Cult Legions / themes more room to grow, while allowing for Marked Daemons in the Cult Marine list.

I voted No.

I'm not interested in playing Marines, of any flavor or color. I doubt that if they combined the daemons back into the CSM codex that you'd be able to run a straight daemon list, as the focus of the book is on the CSMs..

I voted yes.

A strait demon list is absurd, they need worshippers, sorcerers and hosts. If they just materialize in reality, what's the point?

Then the flavored Daemons can have Markable sub-GEQ cultist/worshippers.

I voted yes.

The people who voted no sicken me both because they clearly did not own $1000 worth of Daemons that became useless when the 'Chaos' Codex came out and because having a combined Codex doesn't hurt their ability to field an all-daemon force any more than having a combined Codex hurt anyone's ability to field an all CSM army.

All combining them does is allow people, such as your's truly, to do what we used to be able to do and field our daemons and our Marines at the same time. It doesn't (or shouldn't) stop peopl from playing Daemons -or- Marines, it just allows people to play Daemons -and- Marines at the same time.

I voted No.

Basically, I actually agree with DD on this one. Chaos Space Marines have an extremely good codex (despite what so many people whine about). There are five or six people I have known that primarily play CSM, and they have awesome lists that are almost unstoppable. Demons, well, I do know a few people that play them, and they always seem to have their work cut out for them, but as a Guard player, I say "Suck it up! Ya big evil babies!" Some armies are going to be hard to use, that's just how it is and really, how it should be, as motivation to move on to different things.

From what I understand, there are some excellent Demon lists out there, and CSMs don't seem to have trouble making their lists either. My counter proposal:

Purpose : A mixture of the three main factions of the Chaos forces, depicted with an angle of feasibility towards a... realistic portrayal. i.e.: Regular Chaos Cultists and Traitor Militias more than likely make up the vast majority of the Chaos active forces, with Chaos Space Marines being rare among them. Chaos Space Marines make up the next sizable active portion outside the domains of Chaos, taking their cultists and GEQ units among them to take up some pounding they don't feel suitable for their own armor to sop up. Demons would probably be the rarest, finding it difficult to remain coherent outside of the Chaos Realm. More mortal, non-CSM units would find it... dangerous, to be near these nasty beasts, who would probably end up being more a snack food than a force, and since they wouldn't be deepstriking, as they are not materializing from the Warp, nor would anyone want to waste precious resources on dropping them in by other means, they would have to come up out of reserves or be a sort of homing beacon for the Demon components to either burst forth from, or materialize among. Chaos Space Marines would be a more amiable companion to Demons.

3 Codexes with limited mixes.

- Chaos Space Marines : HQ and Troops choices only available in Chaos Space Marine form. Tack on "Renegade Imperials/Cultists" (Essentially Guardsmen, but different due to their being non-Imperial these days, or perhaps just fodder Cultists) who may be added in groups of say 5-20 models per taken CSM Troop Choice (either counting as an additional troop choice on the Force Org. Chart or not). Certain Demon units available to Elites and Fast Attack. The purpose is not to make the CSM codex thicker, however.

- Demons : Same idea as Chaos Space Marines, different HQ and Troops with options not available to CSM. Cultists available under troops as separate Choices of multiple squads under Troops, Chaos Space Marine units available under Elites.

- Renegades and Mutants : Mutants, Traitor Guard, and aliens galore! GEQ, cultists, mutants, traitor Tau, heck even Orks would make up the HQ and Troops exclusively. Elites held by unique units and CSM, Fast Attack the domain of Demons that deepstrike in. Heavy Support may have some Demon, CSM, and Guard Vehicles too.

I voted yes but ideally I would like to see a minimum of 3 chaos codecii

chaos space marines = as now plus troop/HQ daemons and some odd fast/elite ones

daemons = all the daemons

lost and the damned = troop/HQ daemons and some odd fast/elite ones, mostly guard and cultists with limited elite chaos forces


I wouldn't want Daemon players to lose the ability to field an all daemon army that is workable. I personally think it makes no sense whatsoever in the fluff but now GW have done it it would be horible to take that away.

But the generic daemons in the chaos book are an absolute disgrace.


The only problem I can forsee is balancing the summong mechanic with the power of the daemons to prevent daemon bomb forces (which are no fun at all to face imho)

you either make daemons very weak (like now) or drop the summoning mechanic all together.

Actually, Daemons could be quite a bit weaker. The C: Daemons are based on MEQ, when they could be based on GEQs. Summoned Markable GEQ Daemons wouldn't be an issue at all.

Skinnattittar wrote:Chaos Space Marines have an extremely good codex (despite what so many people whine about).

Depends what you're talking about. If you're talking about playability and 'power', compared to the last Chaos Codex, then yes, there's nothing wrong with the current one and it is a good Codex. But from a flavour/thematic standpoint, the current 'Chaos' Codex is a complete and utter failure. I don't see many people complaining about the 'Chaos' Codex's power - I see the opposite, with it doing quite well in the tournament scene along side Orks and Daemons - what I see is people lamenting that this new 'power' came at such a huge cost in variety and flavour.

Merging Chaos with Daemons doesn't impinge on anyone's ability to field a good CSM or a good Daemon list. All it does is allow those us who enjoy both to not have to make that choice, and use the armies we have that used to be legal before the utterly needless split.

Well then you can tell them "Welcome to everyone else's 40k." Yes, the old codex had TONS of stuff the current one does not, but in general I heard people doing a lot of arguing about problems with conflicting rules, uncertainty in application, and a lot of people crippled by the plethora of decisions. Flavor is generally what you make it, the codex is still packed with options and abilities, plenty of flavor. Though I can sympathize, the new Guard codex doesn't have an armory at all to speak of and their "flavor" options have been completely stripped. But, I make up for in what the rules will supply me with what I can add to my models, paint, and how I play.

Skinnattittar wrote: Flavor is generally what you make it, the codex is still packed with options and abilities, plenty of flavor. Though I can sympathize, the new Guard codex doesn't have an armory at all to speak of and their "flavor" options have been completely stripped. But, I make up for in what the rules will supply me with what I can add to my models, paint, and how I play.

The 'Chaos' codex has about much flavor as a piece of cardboard.

Of course, cardboard wouldn't taste too bad if you never had eaten anything else in your entire life.

Generic daemons? Simplified marks? Daemon weapons that kill you? In all, it's an incredibly boring codex, and that's putting it lightly.

Saying it's packed with options and abilities and flavor does a disservice to those who lost entire armies. Had a human sized Daemon prince? Sucks to be you!

Play Word Bearers? Sucker!

Play Night Lords or Alpha Legion? Might as well do counts-as SM. At least then you can infiltrate and still be good.

I've thrown out the idea for allowing Mono-God lists to take units from both. I don't think it would be too unbalanced.

so now we face this slight problem:


HQ: lash prince
HQ: lash prince

Elite: bloodcrushers
Elite: bloodcrushers
Elite: bloodcrushers

Troop: either plague marines or plage bearers
Troop: either plague marines or plage bearers
Troop: either plague marines or plage bearers

Heavy: obliterators
Heavy: obliterators
Heavy: obliterators



just a very rough layout, but you see where thats going.
mixing 2 full lists is never a good idea, people will then pick out the best units from both dex and mix them together.
giving you something stupidly unbalanced as a result.

Perhaps Chaos ought to be shoehorned back into mono-God lists, except for Black Legion?

I think "bonus" Mono-god lists should be made (i.e. Space Wolves, Black Templars, Dark Angels etc.). They really wouldn't have to do much special.

Voted No.

I think it would be "cherrypicking" as main result of such fusion.

Also chaos needs more traitor guard cultists, not demons or csm. Those having the numbers in the chaos forces should be represented.

Secondly, HQ choices should be restricted to 0-1 per type as chaos has all its leaders striving for power. I doubt that " commanded by equals" thing in a chaos warband.

So maybe:

- 1 CSM dex, cult csm + cultists / pure undivided csm / csm + a few demons.

some of these options should be bound to SC.

-1 Demon dex

as is.

- 1 chaos dex. traitor guard, a few csm, a few demons.

should have less "guard" options than the real IG, csm only as elite/hq, some medium strength demons.

So what you're really saying about "lack of flavor" is that you have to use your imagination now? Again, welcome to everyone else's 40k! I don't know if you've noticed, but Ultra Marines are the same as Blood Ravens, who are the same as Black Templars, and any other personally made Space Marine army that doesn't have/use a chapter specific list, and even those are essentially the same with a few quirks. Orks have to use general list, no "flavor" there. IG has been watered down even more with this new codex. Eldar, well, if you have their Craftworld codex there is some flavor? I don't know because I still haven't really noticed a difference between the Craftwords other than what and who are being taken. Necrons, well, duh, they're supposed to be as delicious as plain crackers and water. Let me see.... nope, can't think of any single army Codex that allows the kind of "flavor" you are demanding. So instead of just doing good modelling, lists that aren't the ubers, or using any sort of imagination, you are complaining? You haven't even tried anything!

I have not pity for Chaos Space Marine players. I can sympathize that you have lost what you were familiar with, but that's life, things change and you have to adjust. I have seen the CSM codexes, and I see very little that prevents you from making fluffy and fun armies that are still effective. Just use some creativity.

Um, Black Templars have a Chapter-specific list...

Fine, replace Black Templars with Imperial Fists.

Skinnattittar wrote:So what you're really saying about "lack of flavor" is that you have to use your imagination now? Again, welcome to everyone else's 40k! I don't know if you've noticed, but Ultra Marines are the same as Blood Ravens, who are the same as Black Templars, and any other personally made Space Marine army that doesn't have/use a chapter specific list, and even those are essentially the same with a few quirks. Orks have to use general list, no "flavor" there. IG has been watered down even more with this new codex. Eldar, well, if you have their Craftworld codex there is some flavor? I don't know because I still haven't really noticed a difference between the Craftwords other than what and who are being taken. Necrons, well, duh, they're supposed to be as delicious as plain crackers and water. Let me see.... nope, can't think of any single army Codex that allows the kind of "flavor" you are demanding. So instead of just doing good modelling, lists that aren't the ubers, or using any sort of imagination, you are complaining? You haven't even tried anything!

I have not pity for Chaos Space Marine players. I can sympathize that you have lost what you were familiar with, but that's life, things change and you have to adjust. I have seen the CSM codexes, and I see very little that prevents you from making fluffy and fun armies that are still effective. Just use some creativity.

pssssst Black Templars have their own codex, also there are 6 different versions of loyalist marines and even within the main codex a different special character lets you make a different chapter with entirely different rules. Plenty of flavour in the current marine dex, in fact it is probably the most flavourful of the present set.

As for orks, sure there are no specific klan lists but units from every klan (except poor poor snakebites) are included and you can mod that list to do things like out elite and heavy support choices in troops.


But chaos, do you have any idea what chaos lost?

2 DECADES!! of fluff detailing the main four gods, their followers and the relationship between each other

slaanesh and khorne hate each other, is that mentioned in the present codex or reflected in the rules?
tzeentch and nurgle hate each other, is that mentioned in the present codex or reflected in the rules?

where are nurglings, plaguebearers, blood letters, juggernauts, daemonettes, horrors, furies, hellhounds, flamers, etc, etc

or is nurgling the same as a juggernaut and the same as a flamer now?

What, exactly, are "generic" daemons and where have they been hiding for the previous 20 years?

What, exactly is a greater daemon of genericism? What generic qualities does it exemplify? Where is my sodding bloodthirster? The model that got 90% of the kids who played chaos to start playing chaos.

Where are my god specific wargear sections full of mutations, daemon weapons, god specific psychic and even minor psychic powers.

Where are my mono-god lists? Oh I know technically you can still do worldeaters, emperor's children, death guard and 1000sons but where the berserker bikers, rubric termies, noise marine havocs or death guard chosen? Why are we limited to just the cult units?

And don't get me started on the watered down crap that is icons. Icons! MARKS! For the previous 20 years it was the MARK or khorne not the icon of khorne. Why does the unit stop worhsipping khorne when the banner falls over.

favoured numbers? Do mos of todays chaos players even know what those are?

the new marine dex has special characters that reflect a white scars, salamanders or raven guard army so obviously the chaos codex has ways to reflect an alpha legion or night lords army right? Oh, it seems they are forgotten.

did you make a man-sized daemon prince? Tough gak!
an iron warriors basilisk? bad luck!
an entire army of heavily converted marines so that everybody and every vehicle had noise marine weapons rather than standard equipment? Sucks to be you doesn't it.


Chaos used to be the single best thing about the 40k universe and what really set it aside. I don't even play chaos but I used to love facing chaos forces. Every army was so varied and the options really brought out the creative modelling aspect of players. Sure it was sometimes unbalanced but I'd much rather have unbalanced but fun, varied and dare I say it, chaotic than unbalanced and dull as hell.

It seems these days that there are no chaos lords except slaaneshi ones but these slaaneshi lords never, ever lead slaaneshi troops but instead lead plague marine forces. Of course once they receive the blessing of nurgle these plague marines immediately switch to worshipping slaanesh. And despite the new codex apparently reflecting renegades more than legion forces actual chaos space marines, as opposed to cult troops, are amongst the rarest things on the tabletop.

The new chaos codex is crap from beginning to end. It is easily and without hyperbole the worst of the currently legal codecii. Not only is it unbalanced but it rewards boring army builds that bare no relationship to the fluff. Whatever the flaws of the old codex at least it rewarded fluffy monogod armies with scared numbers and gave opportunities for fun and weird conversions and units.

A lot of abusive lists were present in the last dex but never something so astoundingly horrible as this

lord - lash of submission
lord - lash of submission

10 x plague marines
10 x plague marines
10 x plague marines

10 x khorne berserkers

3 x oblits
3 x oblits
3 x oblits


If you don't think the current chaos codex is a massive step down then you simply haven't been playing the game long enough to understand exactly how much we lost. It ripped the soul out of the 40k universe.



Anyway, back on topic.

As JD pointed out if you just combined the 2 codecii as is then it creates a massive potential for abuse. It would also totally castrate the daemon codex (hey guys, they get all our stuff but more!)

If I brought the daemons back I would stick to a 2 choices per god system.
Khorne - bloodletters and fleshhounds
tzeentch - horrors and flamers
slaanesh - daemonettes and seekers
nurgle - plaguebearers and nurglings

plus furies

this means that not every unit gets ported over and means daemons get to keep some of their uniqueness.

Lack of things like epidemius, fateweaver, soulcrushers and heralds reduces some of the powerful combos that daemon players have access to now.

The main problem would be balancing harder daemons with the summoning mechanic (which was what made daemon bombs so abusive). Upping the price a bit in the chaos codex would help, as would some version of daemonic instability.

Preventing cross summoning on icons would be a good idea too as it would help prevent the 6 bloodcrushers 3 x 10 plaguemarine exploit jd mentioned. Those bloodcrushers wouldn't have an icon to summon from and in the chaos marine codex an icon would be necessary for daemons to appear.

psst, Bravely, you can still make a very fluffy Chaos army, you just have to paint and model them right. Yeah, Space Marines have special characters, but it's the paint job and what you choose to take that makes the difference between Blue Boys and Absolvers. I also noticed you didn't cover how bland IG is now, or Eldar, or Necrons, or Tau, or, well, everyone. You're right, you lost a lot of fluff in the 'dex and now anyone can ally any of the Chaos Gods units under the same hat, but that's up to the players to choose.

Skinnattittar wrote:So what you're really saying about "lack of flavor" is that you have to use your imagination now? Again, welcome to everyone else's 40k!

Nope. Nice scarecrow, though. Though since we seem to be using scarecrows right now, your version of "flavor" is "counts as! HURR!!!1".

I don't know if you've noticed, but Ultra Marines are the same as Blood Ravens, who are the same as Black Templars, and any other personally made Space Marine army that doesn't have/use a chapter specific list, and even those are essentially the same with a few quirks. Orks have to use general list, no "flavor" there. IG has been watered down even more with this new codex. Eldar, well, if you have their Craftworld codex there is some flavor? I don't know because I still haven't really noticed a difference between the Craftwords other than what and who are being taken. Necrons, well, duh, they're supposed to be as delicious as plain crackers and water. Let me see.... nope, can't think of any single army Codex that allows the kind of "flavor" you are demanding. So instead of just doing good modelling, lists that aren't the ubers, or using any sort of imagination, you are complaining? You haven't even tried anything!

Exactly. Very little flavor. By the way, just in case you're wondering, I do good modelling. I sculpted epaulettes for my 40 WGF British Zulu War soldiers. I made a Lost & Damned army. I model perfectly fine.

Just in case you're wondering, LatD isn't exactly competitive.

For the Eldar, though the Craftworld list wasn't the best in the world, it had a lot of color to it. As opposed to the new one. Craftworlds also had different rules for different craftworlds...I remember something about Iyanden being a pain in the butt I think.

I have not pity for Chaos Space Marine players. I can sympathize that you have lost what you were familiar with, but that's life, things change and you have to adjust. I have seen the CSM codexes, and I see very little that prevents you from making fluffy and fun armies that are still effective. Just use some creativity.

Good. I have no pity for you losing your IG flavor. Suck it up, cupcake.

You can't sympathize because you've never felt anything like that. Yep, why don't you go up to some people who lost their homes because of the recession? Things change, you have to adjust.

If you've seen both Chaos codices, then I can't really see how you can still make a fluffy and fun army. Creativity...yep, my Guardsmen now have power armor.

You know, you should check out Malfred's counts as SM article. Unfortunately, his is joking, yours isn't.

Skinnattittar wrote:psst, Bravely, you can still make a very fluffy Chaos army, you just have to paint and model them right. Yeah, Space Marines have special characters, but it's the paint job and what you choose to take that makes the difference between Blue Boys and Absolvers. I also noticed you didn't cover how bland IG is now, or Eldar, or Necrons, or Tau, or, well, everyone. You're right, you lost a lot of fluff in the 'dex and now anyone can ally any of the Chaos Gods units under the same hat, but that's up to the players to choose.

And players choose poorly.

Rules design should reward reflecting the backstory. I get annoyed when GW designs rules so that this isn't the case but typically it is a mistake i.e. clearly GW didn't want min/maxed marine squads but wanted full size squads so they wrote rules that either force or reward you for using full squads.

The chaos codex takes this a step further by completely jettisoning all the old backstory entirely. I can't get too annoyed if a new kid has a dual lash plague marine army because

a) it is obviously powerful
b) the codex lets you do it
c) the codex contains no background information that would suggest why he should play it any other way

Why would I be annoyed with the player in that situation. Instead I'm annoyed at GW for making such a terrible codex that the player is guided towards that army.

You still can and there still are fluffy chaos space marine armies but there is very little guidance in the new codex for new players to produce such an army and no rules benefit for producing a fluffy army.

In fact there is a positive disconnect between rules and fluff. A friend of mine had an Emperor's Children army that was heavily converted. Nearly every weapon in the army was replaced by a noise marine weapon. Now his noise marine weapons on his tanks are "counts as" heavy bolters. His noise marine havocs are "counts as" autocannons, his daemonettes are "counts as" generic daemons his steed of slaanesh is a "counts as" bike. What was a perfectly fluffy and valid army is still fluffy but now has to be played as counts as to be legal on the tabletop. Not for balance reasons. Not for background reasons. Purely for lazy reasons, GW couldn't be bothered to support rules .

As for IG? Well doctines lost them some flavour I concede but doctrines was poorly implemented in the first place. Too few players used it to represent home grown fluff and instead turned it into just another way to fine tune the best rules. But I would agree that IG are roughly in the same boat as chaos in tersm of losing flavour. I don't personally know any IG players with lovingly converted armies that are now reduced to a pathetic counts as status but assume there must be. I care less because things like warrior weapon IG aren't as central to the fluff as the chaos legions and the four chaos gods are. They are the very heart of the 40k universe.

And yes I agree, it is the paint job that seperates blue boys from absolvers just as it is that seperates black legion from astral claws. No problem there, designing your own fluff and chapter/renegade chapter/mystery legion with a new paintjob is fine. I don't require rules for every single chapter GW has ever thought up. The generic codex for chaos space marines should work fine for a chaos space marine army that you create yourself and it should also allow you to simply with unit selection create an iron warriors, alpha legion, word bearers or emperor's children army.

In fact you can do this with orks. Want a goff force? Take 2 warbosses, 2 mobs of nobs and back it up with slugga boyz. Hey presto nobz mob. Want blood axes? Take snikrot and some kommandosm shoota boyz and looted vehicles hey presto blood axes.

You can do this to some extent in the chaos codex. Want Iron Warriors? Take lots of heavy weapon troopers, no cultists, some vindicators and obliterators.
But the orks and the marines didn't lose anything. If you wanted to do white scars in the last codex you took lots of bikes. In this codex you take lots of bikes. In the last codex if you wanted to do alpha legion you took lots of cultists. In this codex.....no cultists. If you wanted to do emperor's children you took noise marine weapons and daemonettes. In this codex there are no daemonettes and only noise marines get the noise marine weapons.

I am fine with removing the iron warriors 4th heavy slot, it was abusive. But were cultists abusive? Dark apostles? Rubric Termies?


Okay you want me to cover how bland everyone else is now I'll do a quick run down

IG - blandified to some degree, mitigated slightly by lots of special characters to reflect the most famous forces, lots of new vehicle and unit options and the return of penal legions. Overall slightly blandified.

Orks - lost skarboyz but gained nobz as elites. Gained more flexibility in organisation, several new units and several new special characters　however generic looted vehicle rules are a downside.

Marines - lost......erm. AFAIK the only trait that can't be recreated is independent apothecaries. Gained several new units. Gained several new rules. Gained a special character that allows them to reflect every main chapter. Some changes to fluff (sternguard vanguard) but imho quite good changes.

Tau - lost 1 character, gained several new units. Fuff is consistent with previous codex and the stronger army builds reflect the fluff.

Necrons - have only had 1 codex which has bags of character in terms of story but the models are intentionally flavourless. In 4th ed strong army builds (phalanx) reflected fluff. Now it is all about destroyers but that is a facotr of changing editions not codex design.

Eldar - the craftworlds as they were can largely be recreated in the new codex. Iyanden can be done as wraithguard are now troops, samm hain can be redone as bikes are now troops, altaoic and biel tan lost their abusive former lists but lost no actual units and can still be recreated from a fluff perspective. Biel tan take lots of aspects, altaoic take lots of rangers and pathfinders. Admittedly losing court of the young king was bad. Ulthwe got shafted I'll give you that. Harlies lost lots of flavour from their experimental codex but at least are present in the main eldar codex in a form that is reflective of the fluff. Powerful eldar builds reflect fluff with the exception of the overall eakness of guardians.

Tyranids - lost individual mutations but gained a bit more freedom for biomorphs. Lost no units, gained a couple, much more customisability in terms of individual units and in terms of list organisation. It is arguable whether or not "nidzilla" reflects the fluff accurately. Most 5th ed builds reflect the fluff very well.

Chaos - lost so many units and options it is difficult for me to list them. lost most of the unit options that defined such chapters as alpha legion, emperor's children, word bearers and 1000sons. rules no longer reflect the backstory in any way or reward adherence to the backstory. Gained some flexibility in list design. Gained vindicators.

I voted yes

But I feel there needs to be restrictions maybe make it legion specific. My Pure EC should be able to field daemonettes and a keeper - removing affiliated daemons for generalized lesser daemons was a bit of an insult. Then putting them in another codex and not allowing Chaos Marines to incorporate them is a little like the punishment the gods inflicted upon Tantalus.

I wrote several paragraphs in response to all that text. But before I punched "Submit," I asked myself: What are they really asking for? And deleted it all. No matter how good an argument I make, what you really want is your old codex back with all the warm fuzzies it had, so you can hold it over everyone else who isn't like you. Not trying to be insulting, its an easy feeling to get into, and there is nothing wrong with having pride for your accomplishments.

Skinnattittar wrote:I wrote several paragraphs in response to all that text. But before I punched "Submit," I asked myself: What are they really asking for? And deleted it all. No matter how good an argument I make, what you really want is your old codex back with all the warm fuzzies it had, so you can hold it over everyone else who isn't like you. Not trying to be insulting, its an easy feeling to get into, and there is nothing wrong with having pride for your accomplishments.

Firstly it isn't actually my codex. I don't play chaos and never have done. My interest is purely as a fan of the 40k backstory and as a frequent opponent of chaos on the tabletop.

Secondly do not presume to know your opponent's thinking, that just smacks of arrogance.

You want me to clearly state what I want from a chaos codex I'll state it here.

1. Rules that reward monogod armies on the tabletop and punish or prohibit mixing khorne with slaanesh and tzeentch with nurgle at least without the presence of some unmarked chaos space marines

2. Rules that make basic chaos space marines worth fielding

3. Rules that allow such armies as emperor's children, alpha legion, etc to be fielded on the tabletop as they are in the fluff

4. The inclusion of non-generic daemons and greater daemons to maintain a backstory legacy that has lasted 2 decades and is the pinnacle of GW's artistic achievement

5. Rules that provide an ingame effect for a variety of daemonic mutations harkening back to the old D1000 gift of chaos table. Not all 1000 but a wide and varied set of mutations.

I deally I'd like chaos players to get a synthesis of the old and present book combining some of the good ideas from both. AS I see it the strengths of the present book are

1. The statlines for all the cults are good, balanced and reflective of their fluff

2. The statlines for the chaos lord is good

3. The statlines for many of the special characters are good



Port those over to the old chaos codex, re-balance pts and some of the old abusive stuff and that'd be just dandy for me.

Skinnattittar wrote:I wrote several paragraphs in response to all that text. But before I punched "Submit," I asked myself: What are they really asking for? And deleted it all. No matter how good an argument I make, what you really want is your old codex back with all the warm fuzzies it had, so you can hold it over everyone else who isn't like you. Not trying to be insulting, its an easy feeling to get into, and there is nothing wrong with having pride for your accomplishments.

A.k.a. you know that you've been beaten.

But hey, hold your head up high. Even though you've been proved wrong, you can keep thinking what you want to think. You know that you are right, so carry on like you've won.

Go ahead, nobody's stopping you.

@ Vlad : If by beaten you mean "not going to bother wasting time arguing something no matter how well proven will not be accepted, whether in the end I AM correct or false, which is impossible given the subjective nature of this argument." Then yes, I have been beaten. I have chosen not to participate in a war of attrition, like a tick-tack-toe tournament or a Nuclear War, the only way to win is not to play. But in the end, you will not get your Chaos Space Marine codex how you like it, you will not have all your marks of chaos and special characters, or lavish armory of annoying but mostly pointlessly complex weapons, you won't be able to stand upon high on a pedestal looking down at newer players who do not yet have a great skill of modeling like you do to play whatever your fancy carries (not that that has ever stopped them). Basically, in the end, without any action of mine, you still lose. It is a conflict neither of us have control over, you'll just have to accept and move on, do what you can with what you have, a codex that only limits the number of models you have on the board. Everything else you actually have control over, what they look like, which you choose, how you play them. All decisions for you.

In other words; okay.

Skinnattittar wrote:@ Vlad : If by beaten you mean "not going to bother wasting time arguing something no matter how well proven will not be accepted, whether in the end I AM correct or false, which is impossible given the subjective nature of this argument." Then yes, I have been beaten. I have chosen not to participate in a war of attrition, like a tick-tack-toe tournament or a Nuclear War, the only way to win is not to play. But in the end, you will not get your Chaos Space Marine codex how you like it, you will not have all your marks of chaos and special characters, or lavish armory of annoying but mostly pointlessly complex weapons, you won't be able to stand upon high on a pedestal looking down at newer players who do not yet have a great skill of modeling like you do to play whatever your fancy carries (not that that has ever stopped them). Basically, in the end, without any action of mine, you still lose. It is a conflict neither of us have control over, you'll just have to accept and move on, do what you can with what you have, a codex that only limits the number of models you have on the board. Everything else you actually have control over, what they look like, which you choose, how you play them. All decisions for you.

In other words; okay.

This isn't about looking down on newer players. I feel sorry for newer players not superior to them. They have been denied the deep and rich legacy of chaos as an idea. New players don't adhere to the fluff because GW has not seen fit to provide them with that fluff and I think that is a terrible loss.

If the curent Chaos Codex is a crime then the villains are not the players who have only known this codex but the designers who produced the codex.

Incidentally Skinnattittar what exactly is it that you like about the current chaos codex? I'm genuinely interested to know why you prefer it to the previous one. No sarcas or irony at all I sincerely wish to know because from my perspective it's a pile of crap.