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If I have a crisis unit like this:

2 Crisis
- team leader, bonding knife, twinlinked missile pods, 1 shield drone
- twinlinked missile pods, 1 shield drone

Where each crisis suit had 1 shield drone each; then if the unit was wounded with 5 bolters could I take 2 on the crisis, 2 on one shield drone, and the last on the other shield drone? This is done in such as way that if the shield drone fails two saves the other shield drone doesn't die.

I believe wounds ahve to be allocated as evenly as possible, so each model has to take at least 1.

spartanghost wrote:I believe wounds have to be allocated as evenly as possible, so each model has to take at least 1.

Correct. Assign one would to each model, then a second. No model can have 2 on it before each has one etc. You decide which order and on whom. Then, roll saves for all identical models (identical in game terms) in batches.

Dracos wrote:

spartanghost wrote:I believe wounds have to be allocated as evenly as possible, so each model has to take at least 1.

Correct. Assign one would to each model, then a second. No model can have 2 on it before each has one etc. You decide which order and on whom. Then, roll saves for all identical models (identical in game terms) in batches.

+1 For correct answer

onlainari wrote:This is done in such as way that if the shield drone fails two saves the other shield drone doesn't die.

Unfortunately, the Shield Drones are identical models in the squad, and must roll all of their allocated wounds/saves together. While they are bought as wargear, the TE:Codex specifically designates them as counted for 25%/50% morale check checkpoints, and since they are models in the squad with full stats, they will take their saves together.

So if you allocate 3/5 bolter wounds to drones, and fail two of those saves, both drones will die.

You all suck at answering my question.

synchronicity was the only one that actually read the question.

The drones are not identical.

How is a shield drone different than a shield drone, then?

The original post is clearly postulating the idea that a shield drone purchased for one crisis suit is different to a shield drone purchased for another.

It's a strange situation, but I think each controller's drones is different, it becomes an issue when you start also wounding the battlesuits, if say one of the battlesuits has taken a wound, he is more likely to die than the other one, so now whether it is the wounded battlesuits drone or the healthy battlesuits drone is relevant, since the death of a battlesuit means the removal of it's controlled drones.

If you were to simplify the rules down and just say that when a battlesuit dies, the number of drones(type specific) in the squad cannot exceed the number that the remaining members started with, then you are letting the Tau player assume by default dead drones belonged to dead suits, and the drones end up being the same in game terms.

But the rules don't support this simplification, and to play by a RAW stance you must treat each drone controllers drones as a unique set (possibly with sub sets such as shield and gun drones) so that you can accurately remove drones with thier controller.

Ah, I see the argument now. This IS a strange situation, because by definition of "Unique Models" on p25 of the BRB, the Drones do not full fill the requirements. Are the Drones identical in "Gaming Terms," as the text describes? They have no special wargear or weapons that would allow you to single them out. However, the fact that when a controller dies and you must remove his drones makes me think there is a case for it. I will bring this up at the next game night and see what people say.

I never run into this situation because I just give the Team Leader the controller instead of separate suits.

Looking back I think I might have rushed to conclusions earlier, while it is still very relevant which drones take the actual unsaved wound due to the possibility of the controller's owner dieing it doesn't inherently necessitate treating each suits drones as different for taking saves, it only requires specificity with regards to which drone actually lost a wound so that we know with certainty whether it was battlesuit A or B who lost thier drone.

It's a matter of what you consider "identical in gaming terms" to encompass that really sums up the issue, they definitely have the same statline and wargear, the only significant difference between the drones is the owning model. This is certainly enough to change their function, Drone A will die if Battlesuit A dies, whereas Drone B will not, making it difficult to reliably call them identical.

While before I felt the RAW approach was strictly to seperate wounds as suggested in the OP I now feel RAW is not quite clear on the issue (damn, now I'm changing my mind on things before I even argue with the rest of you dakkaites). I personally feel that they are not identical and would take drone's saves grouped by both type of drone and owner, but I certainly wouldn't go into a game with drone models assuming it and would seek to clarify it pre-game.

I consider it my duty, whenever I see a thread about wound allocation in 5th edition Warhammer 40,000 to post at least once on how it's a stupid rule and you should just stick to 4th edition Torrent of Fire. End of counter-rant. Flame away, I'm never looking at this thread again.

They are Identical. Who Controls them means nothing. The criteria for what makes them Identical is very explicit. "Who Controls them" is not one of the criteria.

Warpcrafter - no it isnt, as now PF sarges may die. Torrent of fire was useless in the previous rules.


Each dron e is identical in game terms. End of concern - the drones themselves are both shield drones, have the same stats etc. therefore you roll as a group, both can then die.

Gwar! wrote:They are Identical. Who Controls them means nothing. The criteria for what makes them Identical is very explicit. "Who Controls them" is not one of the criteria.

Sorry but where is this made explicit, all I can find is vague references to being "identical in gaming terms" which is hardly definitive. Maybe I'm missing something important, but as far as I can tell what makes a model different in gaming terms is somewhat open to interpretation.

Drunkspleen wrote:

Gwar! wrote:They are Identical. Who Controls them means nothing. The criteria for what makes them Identical is very explicit. "Who Controls them" is not one of the criteria.

Sorry but where is this made explicit, all I can find is vague references to being "identical in gaming terms" which is hardly definitive. Maybe I'm missing something important, but as far as I can tell what makes a model different in gaming terms is somewhat open to interpretation.

Well, as my thread about Terminator Assault Sergeants showed that the criteria are explicit. On page 25:

The rules for taking saving throws and removing casualties, as presented so far, assume that all the models in the target unit are identical in gaming terms. By this we mean they have the same profile of characteristicsl, the same special rules and the same weapons and wargear.

"Who controls it" is not one of these criteria.

Hence after failing the save I chose which drone dies, and I'll chose the drone controlled by the second suit and not the first suit.

However if you fail 2/3 saves for the drone group, you take the whole group off, as each drone is identical.

BTW it's "choose" not "chose"

onlainari wrote:Hence after failing the save I chose which drone dies, and I'll chose the drone controlled by the second suit and not the first suit.

nosferatu1001 wrote:However if you fail 2/3 saves for the drone group, you take the whole group off, as each drone is identical.

BTW it's "choose" not "chose"

nosferatu1001 has it there. If you fail one save, good for you you get to remove whatever one you want. However, fail 2 out of those 3 armour saves and you still remove both models as they are identical (which is why you were rolling the three armour saves together in the first place).

Gwar! wrote:On page 25:

and wargear.

The wargear reguarding each (up too two) shield drones is different. This isnt because im saying that Hard-wired drone controller module A isnt identical to Hard-wired drone controller B. They kinda are similiar but they each apply to different, specific, drones.

since the drones are part of the same unit then they are the same, meaning they both have wounds allocated together.

Razerous wrote:

Gwar! wrote:On page 25:

and wargear.

The wargear reguarding each (up too two) shield drones is different. This isnt because im saying that Hard-wired drone controller module A isnt identical to Hard-wired drone controller B. They kinda are similiar but they each apply to different, specific, drones.

Since when do drone have Wargear? Oh wait, they don't. The Crisis Suits have Drone Controlers.

Gwar is right (again)
the hardware on the suits does not reflect onto the drones.

So how about this: do two identical crisis suits who have different drones count as identical?

willydstyle wrote:So how about this: do two identical crisis suits who have different drones count as identical?

Of course they do? If I have a Crisis Suit with Two Plasma Rifles and a Drone Controller, and another one with Two Plasma Rifles and a Drone Controller, how are they NOT identical? The Drones are not the wargear of the Crisis Suit, the Drone Controller is. All the Drone Controller does is let the Unit have 2 Drones in it.

Gwar! wrote:

willydstyle wrote:So how about this: do two identical crisis suits who have different drones count as identical?

Of course they do? If I have a Crisis Suit with Two Plasma Rifles and a Drone Controller, and another one with Two Plasma Rifles and a Drone Controller, how are they NOT identical? The Drones are not the wargear of the Crisis Suit, the Drone Controller is. All the Drone Controller does is let the Unit have 2 Drones in it.

That's how I see it, but others have disagreed with me.

Before Adepticon, Yak ruled that the shield drones would count 'as the same' for wound allocation. I don't totally agree with that ruling. As Drunkspleen said, if Suit A dies, then Drone A dies, but Drone B doesn't.

Here's my suggestion:
Allocate wounds to all the shield drones as a group
Roll all your crisis suit saves
Roll all the shield drone saves. If any fail saves, remove the drones that go to wounded suits first.

I think it has a high potential for cheese to treat the drones as Unique Models for wound allocation. But, I also don't think that they're non-Unique either, since they are individually removed when Suits die.

Well, no offence dietrich, but yakface ruled correctly (as in, that is what the rules actually say). Please take your "suggestions" to the correct forum (Proposed Rules).

Lets do a nice example

a tac squad has 1 sarge, 2 plasma gun marines and 7 normal marines.

for wound allocation they will be split into the 3 groups as they differ from one another (via weapons in this case)

they suffer 7 wounds, meaning each of the groups (plasma, sarge and normals) will suffer 2 wounsd each, and then the 7th one can be allocated at players choice.


the case of this thread is pretty much the same.

battle suit with gear A (unit part 1)
battle suit with gear B (unit part 2)
2 drones of the same type (unit part 3)

its pretty straight forward here.

now, if the suits were given the same gear it would be:

both suits (unit part 1)
both drones of the same type (unit part 2)


its all pretty simple and well worded in the book.

Gwar! wrote:Well, no offence dietrich, but yakface ruled correctly (as in, that is what the rules actually say). Please take your "suggestions" to the correct forum (Proposed Rules).

I did not propose the drones be treated as non-Unique. I did not propose any rules. What I suggested complies with allocating wounds to all the shield drones as non-Unique models. Let me repeat it and add a few words to see if that clarifies it.

Allocate wounds to the shield drones as a group.
Roll your Suit saves first. No where do the rules specify the 'order' for rolling saves.
Now roll your drone saves. If you have any drones to remove, remove the ones belonging to wounded (or any killed) Suits first.

AFAIK, that is legal and still treats the drones as a single wound 'group'. All you do is roll the Suits' saves first.

The rest of my post is editorial. I don't totally agree with the Drones being a single 'group', just because if you have to track which drone goes to which suit, that strikes me as being 'different in gaming terms.' But, I think it's a little too cheesy to treat each drone as a separate wound bucket too. So, I have problems with it being played either way.

And, Gwar!, no offense, but let me suggest you lose the smug attitude. You have a lot of good insight, but it is sometimes lost behind your condescending tone.

Dietrich, they have the same statlines, the same gear, do the same job, both cost the same, both look the same, and they are in the same unit.

for wound allocation they would be paired up as a single section for the unit they are in.