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dietrich wrote:AFAIK, that is legal and still treats the drones as a single wound 'group'. All you do is roll the Suits' saves first.

All Saves are made simultaneously, as is all a units shooting. Your "suggestion" is about as legal as +++=][=+++Transmission Terminated+++=][=+++

Razerous wrote:

The wargear regarding each (up too two) shield drones is different. This isnt because im saying that Hard-wired drone controller module A isnt identical to Hard-wired drone controller B. They kinda are similiar but they each apply to different, specific, drones.

That is a poor argument IMO. If I extend this same argument I can say that each model in my marine squad is different. Thus out of 5 marines since they all wear a different piece of wargear they are a mixed unit and I can allocate wounds separately.
Marine # 1 Mark 2 "Crusade Armour"
Marine # 2 Mark 3 "Iron Armour"
Marine # 3 Mark 4 "Imperial Maximus Suit"
Marine # 4 Mark 5 "Heresy Armor"
Marine # 5 Mark 6 "Corvus Armor"

999/1000 players would say that this is a fallacious argument because the wargear is the same in that its characteristics are the same and therefor not different pieces of wargear. The result you have to accept is that you can't imagine physical or metaphysical characteristics into individuals on the battlefield to make them different.

I roll all the saves at once using different colored dice. It has the same effect. I'm determining which Suits take a wound before I remove any drones.

What I see typically happen is the Tau player rolls his drone saves 'first' and removes some drones, then he rolls for his Suits.

At some point, you 'choose' which models in a 'group' are removed. All I'm suggesting is people determine what Suits are wounded/dead before removing any drones - which, since this happens simultaneously, they have to do. But, most people don't.

2 Unique suits, each take 2 wounds
4 drones, same pattern, take 9 wounds.

What I've seen most Tau players do is roll all the drones 'first'. So, in the example, say somehow the Tau player only fails 2 drone saves. Which ones do you remove? Most people would take one off each suit. Now, they roll the suit saves. Save, Suit A makes both, and Suit B fails both. Now, the player loses another Drone because Suit B still had one.

What I'm suggesting, is within the rules (whether it's different colored dice, or in steps, doesn't matter). Roll the Suits first or with different colored dice, it doesn't matter. If you determine the result of the Suit saves 'before' or 'simultaneously', now you know that Suit B is dead. You fail 2 drone saves - you remove the two on Suit B. Now, Suit A still has 2 drones instead of 1.

And actually, rolling for the Drones and removing some, before determining the wounds on the suits, is 'wrong' since it is not simultaneously.

Gwar! wrote:

willydstyle wrote:So how about this: do two identical crisis suits who have different drones count as identical?

Of course they do? If I have a Crisis Suit with Two Plasma Rifles and a Drone Controller, and another one with Two Plasma Rifles and a Drone Controller, how are they NOT identical? The Drones are not the wargear of the Crisis Suit, the Drone Controller is. All the Drone Controller does is let the Unit have 2 Drones in it.

Wait what? The drones are not the wargear of the Crisis Suit? Why then do they appear in a list titled "Battlesuit Wargear" in the armory, this being the only list they can be purchased from.

And regarding the concept that they are just extra team members, where in the crisis battlesuit team entry does it say the team has the option of 1-2 drones per drone controller purchased?

In fact, the Drone controller rules say "A model with a drone controller must take one or two [...] Drones, in any combination, from the Wargear list." so the drone controller clearly says the suit bearing the drone controller is taking these drones, not the team as a collective, and once again refers to them as wargear.

Drones are a piece of wargear and if selected in different ways on different suits are sufficient to make each suit a unique group for wound allocation purposes.

edit: I meant the only list battlesuits can purchase drones from, obviously non battlesuit models have thier own listings, however the drones are still referred to as wargear.

dietrich wrote:And actually, rolling for the Drones and removing some, before determining the wounds on the suits, is 'wrong' since it is not simultaneously.

Who says I am doing that? What you do is roll for everything to find how many unsaved wounds each group takes. If a Suit Dies, its drones are removed as WELL as the drone group taking a Unsaved wound. So if you had 2 Suits and 2 Drones, it ends up that a Suit suffers its final wound and a Drone does too, you remove the suit that died's drone AND you take an unsaved wound on the drone group. That means both drones would "die"

Drunkspleen wrote:Drones are a piece of wargear and if selected in different ways on different suits are sufficient to make each suit a unique group for wound allocation purposes.

Can you show me on Page 25 where it lists that as a Criteria for counting as a Non-Identical model please, my copy of the rules must be misprinted.

I know its an unintuitive result, but that is what the rules say.

Gwar! wrote:

Drunkspleen wrote:Drones are a piece of wargear and if selected in different ways on different suits are sufficient to make each suit a unique group for wound allocation purposes.

Can you show me on Page 25 where it lists that as a Criteria for counting as a Non-Identical model please, my copy of the rules must be misprinted.

I know its an unintuitive result, but that is what the rules say.

Sure, I'd be happy too, right at the start of Page 25 it defines models that are identical in gaming terms as being those that "have the same profile of characteristics, the same special rules and the same weapons and wargear"(bold mine). Since Battlesuit A with drone controller and single gun drone has different wargear to Battlesuit B with a drone controller and 2 gun drones the two battlesuits belong to different group of models within the unit.

If we're going to debate with Drones as Wargear, it must be said the Shield Drones (and Drone Controllers) don't make the suits unique, because they are the same piece of Wargear. Identical in fact. And the suits don't make the Shield Drones unique because the Shield Drones have same stats and abilities as each other, as defined by the already quoted "unique models" rulings. Just because you remove specific drones when the controller dies, doesn't constitute them as unique, because the RAW doesn't make allowances for specific ownership of identical wargear.

It's pretty clear that unique wargear and weapons are what constitutes a unique model, and when none of the wargear is unique, then the 2 Shield Drones can't be considered unique. The simple fact is you have to keep track of which Identical Drones are with which suits, and take them out accordingly when a suit dies.

If you have 2 suits with one drone each, remember which suit's drone dies first, so when you have to remove a suit, you don't leave a drone in there that should have already died.

Drunkspleen wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Drunkspleen wrote:Drones are a piece of wargear and if selected in different ways on different suits are sufficient to make each suit a unique group for wound allocation purposes.

Can you show me on Page 25 where it lists that as a Criteria for counting as a Non-Identical model please, my copy of the rules must be misprinted.

I know its an unintuitive result, but that is what the rules say.

Sure, I'd be happy too, right at the start of Page 25 it defines models that are identical in gaming terms as being those that "have the same profile of characteristics, the same special rules and the same weapons and wargear"(bold mine). Since Battlesuit A with drone controller and single gun drone has different wargear to Battlesuit B with a drone controller and 2 gun drones the two battlesuits belong to different group of models within the unit.

I'm sorry but that is wrong. If Crisis Suit Adam Has Two Fusion Blasters and a Drone Controller, and Crisis Suit Bartholomew has Two Fusion Blasters and a Drone Controller, they are Identical. End. Of . Discussion.

Gwar! wrote:If a Suit Dies, its drones are removed as WELL as the drone group taking a Unsaved wound. So if you had 2 Suits and 2 Drones, it ends up that a Suit suffers its final wound and a Drone does too, you remove the suit that died's drone AND you take an unsaved wound on the drone group. That means both drones would "die

I could see randomly determining the Suit that the surviving Drone belongs to (and if it's the dead suit, you lose it). I don't see how you can come up with losing both drones automatically.

Because one drone is lost because the suit dies, and the group with the drones still has to take an unsaved wound. Obviously the drone that is/is going to be removed cant take it can it?

How do you know the Drone on the dead Suit wasn't the one taking the wound? If you're treating all the Drones as a single 'wound bucket', I don't think you can also cherry pick them like you suggest. All wounds are resolved simultaneously. Owning player gets to choose which models in a 'wound bucket' are removed. I choose to remove the Drone that goes with the now dead suit. It's maybe a little cheesy, but I don't see why that isn't the way to play it.

Compare to Sternguard. I have 8 Sternguard with Combi-weapons. Four fired their combi-weapons and four haven't. Yak says they're all the same for wound allocation. Unit loses 3 models after saves. I take 3 that have expended combi-weapons. I don't see the difference between this and the Drones - same model with regard to stats and wargear, but you're somehow tracking ones because they're not 'the same'.

dietrich wrote:How do you know the Drone on the dead Suit wasn't the one taking the wound? If you're treating all the Drones as a single 'wound bucket', I don't think you can also cherry pick them like you suggest. All wounds are resolved simultaneously. Owning player gets to choose which models in a 'wound bucket' are removed. I choose to remove the Drone that goes with the now dead suit. It's maybe a little cheesy, but I don't see why that isn't the way to play it.

Compare to Sternguard. I have 8 Sternguard with Combi-weapons. Four fired their combi-weapons and four haven't. Yak says they're all the same for wound allocation. Unit loses 3 models after saves. I take 3 that have expended combi-weapons. I don't see the difference between this and the Drones - same model with regard to stats and wargear, but you're somehow tracking ones because they're not 'the same'.

It's simple, you keep track of the individual models. That is not the problem. The "problem" is that Keeping track of who controls that drone or has X combi Weapon Fired or not is NOT one of the explicit criteria listed on Page 25 as to what makes a Model Identical. Every single Shield Drone, or Sternguard with Comi-Melta (Regardless if it has fired or not)"have the same profile of characteristics, the same special rules and the same weapons and wargear." Anyhting else that might happen to be different (As who "controls" a particular drone or if Combi Melta has fired or not) are irrelevant.

Gwar! wrote:The "problem" is that Keeping track of who controls that drone or has X combi Weapon Fired or not is NOT one of the explicit criteria listed on Page 25 as to what makes a Model Identical.

That just restates your earlier position as to why the Drones are a single wound bucket. I don't completely agree with that statement, but I'm willing to play 40k in that fashion (especially since the rule can be exploited whether they are unique or not).

If they are a single wound bucket, why can I not apply unsaved wounds to Drones that belong to suits which are being removed from play? Why is that any different than removing Sternguard with expended combi-weapons in preference to Sternguard that still have their one shot remaining?

What you've proposed is that a player remove the Suits and all attached Drones, and then apply any unsaved wounds to the remaining Drones. I would like to know what supports that arguement. I would agree to randomly roll for the Drones, but that's not what you've proposed.

Sadly what I have proposed is what is called the Rules.

Proposed Rules go in a Different Forum, this one is for what the rules actually are. Yes I know It hasn't made me any friends, but I always support the rules no matter how odd or annoying they are.

As for why you cant, they are a single wound bucket, and that bucket, should it suffer an unsaved wound, MUST inflict that wound on a model and must remove a model because of it. A Drone being removed because it's controller dies does not fulfil that requirement, so you must also remove a model because of the Unsaved wound.

The Drone isn't removed until the Controller is removed. Wound resolution happens simultaneously. I simultaneously assign a wound to the Drone and the Suit, removing both from play. I've removed a model due to an unsaved wound, whether it would have been removed due to the Suit also failing it's wound, I don't see how that matters.

What you are Proposing just makes drones unplayable.

Please quote a page number and reference to show me the error of my ways, oh Condescending Fountain of Knowledge. I'm at work and don't have my rulebook.

Yes, wound resolution happens simultaneously. However, you are not allocating the wounds to models, you are allocating to Model Groups.
Both the Crisis Suit Group and Drone Group Take a Wound. The Crisis Suit dies and the Drone Group Takes a wound. You cannot say that the Drone that would be removed takes a wound because he wouldn't take a wound because he is being removed. That means the other drone takes the wound.

Gwar! wrote:Both the Crisis Suit Group and Drone Group Take a Wound. The Crisis Suit dies and the Drone Group Takes a wound. You cannot say that the Drone that would be removed takes a wound because he wouldn't take a wound because he is being removed. That means the other drone takes the wound.

That doesn't sound simultaneous to me, that sounds like steps. That sounds like (which you criticized me for saying something similar):

1. Resolve wounds on Suits
2. Resolve wounds on Drones

JD21290 wrote:Lets do a nice example

a tac squad has 1 sarge, 2 plasma gun marines and 7 normal marines.

for wound allocation they will be split into the 3 groups as they differ from one another (via weapons in this case)

they suffer 7 wounds, meaning each of the groups (plasma, sarge and normals) will suffer 2 wounsd each, and then the 7th one can be allocated at players choice.

This is incorrect. You don't allocate saves by group. You allocate by model and then roll by group.

There are three groups, but they differ by statlines as well as weapons. The sarge can carry a bolter and thus have the same weapons as the normal marines. He is still a separate group because his statline is different (LD, A) from the others.

So in your example with 7 wounds, a smart player would allocate all the wounds to the 7 normal marines. It would take 10 wounds to force saves to be allocated to the sarge, the plasma guys and the normal marines. Then you roll by groups. If the 7 normal marines pass all of theirs and the 2 plasmas fail theirs you're SOL and the plasmas are gone.

To make a more meaningful example for the point you are trying to illustrate I would suggest the following:

Combat Squad with Sarge, flamer and 3 regular marines. They take 7 wounds. You first allocate a wound to each model. This leaves you will 2 left over. Both of those go against the normal marines. Then roll by groups. You roll 5 saves for the 3 normal marines as a group. For each failed roll you remove a model. So you can pass two but still lose all three models. If they fail all five, you still only lose the 3 models.

Thanks Arschbombe, thats what i was getting at, but by the seems of it i gave a bad example
was just trying to show how weapons and stats change wound allocation

Gwar! wrote:I'm sorry but that is wrong. If Crisis Suit Adam Has Two Fusion Blasters and a Drone Controller, and Crisis Suit Bartholomew has Two Fusion Blasters and a Drone Controller, they are Identical. End. Of . Discussion.

Except as pointed out in my first post on the matter, drones clearly are wargear belonging to battlesuits.

But the drones are also models. If they were just wargear you wouldn't have to put them on the table, they'd become like a nid biomorph that adds a wound to basic profile of the battlesuit.

Even though two separate shield drones are bought for two different crisis suits in one unit, they're still identical. Each drone has the same stats, and therefore are identical wargear, thus conferring no possibility of unique wound allocation. IMHO, of course. It's been a long day.

synchronicity wrote:Even though two separate shield drones are bought for two different crisis suits in one unit, they're still identical. Each drone has the same stats, and therefore are identical wargear, thus conferring no possibility of unique wound allocation. IMHO, of course. It's been a long day.

This is true, but if one drone were instead a gun drone, then the suits would have distinctly different wargear, Two of the same type of drone certainly aren't different, but they are different to 1 of that type of drone or other types.

Drunkspleen wrote:

synchronicity wrote:Even though two separate shield drones are bought for two different crisis suits in one unit, they're still identical. Each drone has the same stats, and therefore are identical wargear, thus conferring no possibility of unique wound allocation. IMHO, of course. It's been a long day.

This is true, but if one drone were instead a gun drone, then the suits would have distinctly different wargear, Two of the same type of drone certainly aren't different, but they are different to 1 of that type of drone or other types.

Of course! I never doubted that for a second. A shield drone has the toughness/armor save of the unit it accompanies. A gun drone is a lot weaker than that, with typical FW stats. I am just replying to the OP's situation and its supporters of claiming two identical shield drones somehow may receive unique model allocations due to separate drone controllers. They do not deserve such luxuries.

Drunkspleen wrote:

synchronicity wrote:Even though two separate shield drones are bought for two different crisis suits in one unit, they're still identical. Each drone has the same stats, and therefore are identical wargear, thus conferring no possibility of unique wound allocation. IMHO, of course. It's been a long day.

This is true, but if one drone were instead a gun drone, then the suits would have distinctly different wargear, Two of the same type of drone certainly aren't different, but they are different to 1 of that type of drone or other types.

No, the suits would have the same wargear. The Drones would be different...

? the drones are removed at the end of the shooting (or assault) phase so of course you can allocate wounds to them. They are never wounded simply removed from play.

Waaaaaaagh! wrote:

Drunkspleen wrote:

synchronicity wrote:Even though two separate shield drones are bought for two different crisis suits in one unit, they're still identical. Each drone has the same stats, and therefore are identical wargear, thus conferring no possibility of unique wound allocation. IMHO, of course. It's been a long day.

This is true, but if one drone were instead a gun drone, then the suits would have distinctly different wargear, Two of the same type of drone certainly aren't different, but they are different to 1 of that type of drone or other types.

No, the suits would have the same wargear. The Drones would be different...

Drones are repeatedly referred to as wargear, appear on a list titled Battlesuit Wargear, and as the drone controller indicates they belong to a specific suit, how then, are drones not wargear belonging to a specific suit?

I have to agree with Gwar! on this one. If a suit dies, its drone goes as well, and any wounds that were on that drone get stacked onto the next one, as there are still wounds caused that haven't been saved.

The drone that belonged to the suit that died are removed at the end of the shooting or assault phase in which the controller died. Till then you may allocate wound to them. Also in CC they will still be able to fight. I don't know who put it into every ones head that they evaporate as soon as their controller dies. Please read their entry in the wargear section.

They are a group (or groups if there is more then one type of drone) of identical models in the unit so you may remove any of them. I would pick those that have lost their controller first as at the end of the phase they will be removed.

Yes, they will be removed. That means the group of drones (that are identical regardless of who controls them) would not have taken an unsaved wound, so the other drone must take it.