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Hey gang. Everyone is figuring out how to beat my current IG list, and my games have been getting closer and closer...

The lists

hard guard

CCS 4x melta chimera heavy flamer
CCS 4x melta chimera heavy flamer

8 psyker PBS chimera heavy flamer
8 psyker PBS chimera heavy flamer

Vet 3x melta chimera heavy flamer
Vet 3x melta chimera heavy flamer
Vet 3x melta chimera heavy flamer

executioner with plasma sponsons
executioner with plasma sponsons
3x hydras


The dark Angels

Sammael

dreadnought multimelta heavy flamer
dreadnought multimelta heavy flamer
dreadnought multimelta heavy flamer

10x tactical multimelta melta meltabomb rhino
10x tactical multimelta melta meltabomb rhino
5x tactical melta meltabomb rhino

2x speeders 2x multimeltas 1x heavy flamer
2x speeders 2x multimeltas 1x heavy flamer

predator achb
predator achb
predator achb



We rolled a dawn of war cap and control. This might get a little complicated in the re-telling. I was playing the dark angels as its a list that I'm testing out. KevinNash is playing my IG army (which he hates doing) So I'll try to say "the IG player" and the "DA player" instead of "I" and "he"

dark angel player won the roll and gave first turn to IG.

IG player deployed nothing, dark angel player deployed nothing. The IG objective was in the center of the table, about 12" from the table edge. The DA objective placed in a corner to deny their left flank.

Turn 1 IG. Rolled on everything as fast as it could go, the russes were pretty slow, like 8 and 9 inches i think. Across from the DA objective, the IG player placed a russ, a PBS and a CCS, to put pressure on it. In front of his own objective he put the other russ, 3 vets, a pbs and a ccs in a big ole wall, with the vets somewhat safely behind the ccs and pbs chimeras. in the far corner on a hill were the hydras.

Turn 1 DA. Brought one predator on in front of the corner objective to screen the three rhinos that followed behind it. Then right in the middle accross from the big force guarding their own objective the DA placed the other two predators, giving cover to the three dreadnoughts. On the far right side directly across from the hydras sammael went flat out to threaten their side armor next turn. Everything was either armor 13/14 had cover or popped smoke.

Turn 2 IG. Over the course of the game, multi-lasers kept hammering my rhinos, ultimately, one rhino died and one was weapon destroyed, with plenty of shakens and stuns. I've forgotten the exact sequence that it happened in. Multi-lasers into rhinos shaking and stunning them, hydras and russes into dreadnoughts, blowing one up. All the chimeras moved forward 6". Right before he said go he remembered to use soulstorm. He put it on a dreadnought, it scattered onto a predator, rolled a 6, then a 6.... After the game when he asked me to recap the list I used. he said "you had 2 predators right?" I laughed and said, "yeah after that ridiculous bank shot soulstorm I did"

Turn 2 DA. No speeders show up, Sammael moves into the perfect side armor shot on the hydra battery and completley underwhelms me. One crew stunned... The predators and dreadnoughts move up and take some multi-melta shots at the lead chimeras. Killing a CCS chim. The predator on the other side fails to do anything memorable.

Turn 3 IG. IG player is really motoring forward now, exposing side armor shots for my predators by racing the chimeras at me. They do pop smoke here to counteract the extra damage they'll face. Two of the three troop chimeras move forward to melta my dreads. They blow up a dread and weapon destroy another... but the other is ready to charge them. IG player blows up a rhino and a tac squad falls out. It's prime for an executioner/PBS one two punch, but thankfully Sammael is on the other side of the table, so weaken resolve is useless. (GO DARK ANGELS!)

Turn 3 DA. Both speeders show up on target or close enough. I have heavy flamers aimed at the back doors of two troop chimeras. Unfortunately, I am unable to pop those transports with regular shooting, so I have to use the speeders multimeltas on the chimeras. I did save one predator, which was able to get its HBs onto a vet squad that tumbled out of a chimera. They ran off the table. My dread charged another chimera that was WAY far away from its home objective. A mighty wind blew over the chimeras hull as the hapless dread whiffed all three attacks. BOOO! Sammael shoots into the hydras AGAIN, and only causes a single crew shaken. Man I overestimated his ability to do anything to armor 10. Or, I just had incredibly bad luck. The tac squad multi-meltas are in range of the approaching CCS chimera and blow it up. Another tac squad is lined up to shoot the CCS with bolters, and so the IG player goes to ground with them to keep them in the game.

Turn 4 IG. Brings the other PBS chimera over in case the game goes longer to try to block the DA objective. Uses both surviving vets to blow away the last dreadnought. Kills all 4 speeders with CCS meltas and one of the executioners. Immobilizes a rhino with hydras.

Turn 4 DA. Sammael slaps his driver and says "just forget these hydras dude" and sets up a turn 5 block, he lines his guns up on the CCS after the movement. The tac squads shuffle up a bit to get ready to score, while also getting their meltaguns lined up on the now blocking PBS chimera. Kill off the CCS in cover but don't scratch the PBS chimera. Sammael doesn't kill off the CCS.

Turn 5 IG. The PBS chimeras both move towards the DA objective, and the two vet chimeras both go cruising speed to get close enough to their own objective. Hydras might have done something to a rhino here.

Turn 5 DA. Sammael swoops in to block the IG objective, one of the tac squad meltas opens up the PBS chimera that is blocking, the predator shreds the poor psykers as they fall out, and the survivors of that get charged by tac marines. After consolidation, there was a sergeant in the path of the chimera with a meltabomb in hand waiting to say 'no' to a tank shock block.

Game ended anyway....

DA wins 1-0...

There was an accusation of luck... because we rolled to see if sammael would die to the 6 meltaguns nearby and he did. But there were some other wacky moments, like the random destruction of a predator, the total whiff of the dreadnought charge, and sammaels inability to even scratch the paint on hydra side armor. So ultimately, we agreed it was a good match.

All in all I would say that this matchup is going to be fun and close all the time. IG would probably have a KP advantage thanks to the speeders, but I think marines would have a seize ground advantage due to rites of battle and krak grenades/power armor.


I'm definitely making changes to the IG list...

I don't have time to point it out but i think this fits...

CCS 4x melta chimera heavy flamer

8 psyker PBS chimera heavy flamer
8 psyker PBS chimera heavy flamer
demonhunter inquisitor with heirophant 2x mystics and sanctuary

vets 3x melta chimera heavy flamer
vets 3x melta chimera heavy flamer
5x inquisitorial stormtroopers

vendetta
vendetta

executioner with plasma sponsons
executioner with plasma sponsons
vanquisher with hull lascannon


This will change the matchup, making it a bit better from long range for IG, but a lot more dangerous at closer ranges. Cutting 7 meltaguns and the hydras for 6 lascannons and DS protection changes things drastically. The dreadnoughts could become a SERIOUS problem if they made a couple cover saves or got some lower damage results going in. Sammael will be equally nightmarish under this new change. But i can shake/kill predators, and have better anti-rhino than before. And against the land raider variants of mechanized marines, I have my vanquisher.

Thanks for reading.

Stubborn does make weaken resolve kinda worthless eh?

That DA list is almost exactly the same list I took to the last tourny I went to, just with vulkan instead of sammy and the 3rd tac was 10 men.

So maybe I can stick with my multi-melta's and not have to go lascannon nuts huh.

I think the revised list is a better tournament army with the inquisitor. I hate vendetta's :p. they are so cheap. Let us know how the vanquisher works out. i was thinking of trying a squad of 2 when I get around to doing my own guard army.

Nice report. It's cool to see marines being forced back to a more mechanized/mobile style of play instead of just land raider/ drop pod spam.

I'm curious to see what happens against well constructed Tau and Witch Hunters. Both armies are traditionally mech. One has lots of long range S10/S7 tank popping. The other is chock full of melta/flamer goodness along with all those wacky faith rules and pyker defense. IG is really mixing up the metagame which is nice.

Sgt_Scruffy wrote:Nice report. It's cool to see marines being forced back to a more mechanized/mobile style of play instead of just land raider/ drop pod spam.

I'm curious to see what happens against well constructed Tau and Witch Hunters. Both armies are traditionally mech. One has lots of long range S10/S7 tank popping. The other is chock full of melta/flamer goodness along with all those wacky faith rules and pyker defense. IG is really mixing up the metagame which is nice.

for some reason, and I know i'm nuts, I think that Tau are one of the armies that will handle the transition into all mech and the new IG well. They have some of the best long range tank busting in the game and lots of anti-troop dakka. i can see Broadsides demolishing chimera's and piranna's melta'ing the crap outta russ's. But liek I said, i'm prolly nuts.

Khornatedemon wrote:

Sgt_Scruffy wrote:Nice report. It's cool to see marines being forced back to a more mechanized/mobile style of play instead of just land raider/ drop pod spam.

I'm curious to see what happens against well constructed Tau and Witch Hunters. Both armies are traditionally mech. One has lots of long range S10/S7 tank popping. The other is chock full of melta/flamer goodness along with all those wacky faith rules and pyker defense. IG is really mixing up the metagame which is nice.

for some reason, and I know i'm nuts, I think that Tau are one of the armies that will handle the transition into all mech and the new IG well. They have some of the best long range tank busting in the game and lots of anti-troop dakka. i can see Broadsides demolishing chimera's and piranna's melta'ing the crap outta russ's. But liek I said, i'm prolly nuts.

I dont think you are nuts

Hydras not carrying their weight?

I also think that Vendettas will be a better unit to spend points on (also frees up a heavy slot).

Two mounted Vets and a 5man IST squad is all you have for scoring? Have you played a Seize Ground with that list?

Nice report shep


and i agree about tau, they will do very well
allthough, still no KP fix for them
if that, and the amount of models needed was reduced then i may think about playing them.

Ditching the Hydras for a Vanquisher? Whatever for? The Vanquisher is a terrible choice.

Nice report! I still think a medusa is alot better than a vanquisher but the AV 14 is pretty damn nice. No Hydras though-seems a strange choice?

I agree with H.B.M.C. I think the hydras bring alot to the table. Maybe drop the executioners for the Vendettas if you're worried about anti-MBT?

H.B.M.C. wrote:Ditching the Hydras for a Vanquisher? Whatever for? The Vanquisher is a terrible choice.

Is that what you've found in your playtesting?

Each shot from a BS3 vanquisher cannon carries a 29% chance to pen AV14. That is a full 7% higher than a BS4 strength 10 shot. In fact, outside of short range melta, there is no weapon that has a higher probability of penetrating hits on armor 14. This ability comes on a 14/13/10 tank that includes a lascannon. And can move and fire both... for 170 points. 37% chance to get a single pen on AV14 with both guns, on the move, for less than a hammerhead with railgun. Don't let the ballistic skill fool you, its just as consistent as higher BS lower strength guns, you just discover that you have failed to pen one roll sooner.

The hydras are much better at doing what they do, but with 2 vendettas, 4 multi-lasers, two plasma russes and 2 strength 8 large blasts, I think I have the light vehicle department covered. What i would like, is a long range solution to high armor value shooters who hang back at long range, I'm also looking to include something that I won't have to babysit or screen for a cover save. With the vanquisher I end up getting another cover save for a chimera, rather than having something that I need two chimeras to give a cover save to.

Main problem with vanquishers for me is very often people have cover really reducing the chance you will get that pen you need. It is also not AP 1 which means glancings are meh at best.

Which is why I love the Medusa with siege shells + enclosed crew compartment..155 points, has double the chance to get a kill compared to vanquisher turret alone, a 10% more chance if you include a lascannon, can shoot troops if targets are running out better-AP 1 and 2d6 +5 if the hole scatters off can still hurt alot of tanks no problem at all.

It has only a 48" range which is definately not as good as having 72" , and yes you will likely have to shield it or put it near terrain but I think the cheaper price (a full 30 points if you dont give it crew compartment-but imo it does need it since it cant fire indirectly) and vastly increased AT performance make up for it.

Jpr wrote:Main problem with vanquishers for me is very often people have cover really reducing the chance you will get that pen you need. It is also not AP 1 which means glancings are meh at best.

Which is why I love the Medusa with siege shells + enclosed crew compartment..155 points, has double the chance to get a kill compared to vanquisher turret alone, a 10% more chance if you include a lascannon, can shoot troops if targets are running out better-AP 1 and 2d6 +5 if the hole scatters off can still hurt alot of tanks no problem at all.

It has only a 48" range which is definately not as good as having 72" , and yes you will likely have to shield it or put it near terrain but I think the cheaper price (a full 30 points if you dont give it crew compartment-but imo it does need it since it cant fire indirectly) and vastly increased AT performance make up for it.

Nothing wrong with 48". I had peeked at the medusa a couple times. I haven't gotten either of them on the table yet. Let me know if you get any PT with it, I'll probably try it along with the vanq in this next round of games. Certainly a better shot, but I just wonder how easy it is to get it crew shaken or just blown up when facing autocannons and lascannons. a net and a screening chimera could make it hard to touch.

I have liked my russes in that people just don't shoot at them. They have that kinda toughness. But thanks for reminding me about the medusa. That shot is a real killer.

Vanquisher gets 6 shots a game.

3 of those will miss.

Of that 3 that hit, 1.5 of those will be ignored by the cover that the tank you're firing at is in.

Is it worth it for 1.5 damaging hits a game?

I have to agree on the lone vanquisher, its a lot of points for tank that will only hit 2-3 times a game assuming the enemy just ignores it. One more vendetta is 40 pts cheaper and much more effective on anything but land raiders due to outflank.

I cant tell you how gold the vendettas have been for me in my games so far!

When I get time to post the results from this weekends test games against Crusher Spam, and Mech Lash you might see the difference. In 13 games now the Vendettas (plus cargo) have emerged as the stars of the army, coming in just ahead of my PRuss Squadron.

Mobility really is a game changer especially since you already have two russes.

In 40k the ability to make your priority target go away every turn is key, Vendettas + Prusses make that very likley.

You are making one half of the comparison. You are correct. 3 TL lascannons will hit more times per game. But against armor 14, the leman russ vanquisher with hull lascannon gets more penetrating hits per turn as a vendetta versus armor 14. This is coupled with 14/13/10. You can be as fast and as high up as you want, but armor 12 with no cover save is going to be instantaneously handled by your opponent. Over the course of a game, the vanquisher will take his shots 5-7 times. The vendetta will either shoot all three lascannons once, then get dropped, or if it comes on from reserves, just shoot a single TL lascannon (can't even fit the model on the table from reserve by moving less than 6") then get killed off.

To make the comparison using another method. The vanquisher only hits 3 times per game, plus 3 lascannon hits... the vendetta hits 13.5 times per game, Which is 10.5 lascannon hits to my 3 vanquisher hits but only gets 1.68 penetrating hits against av14 (the vanquisher gets 1.74). I'm talking about land raiders here. Which people seem to be suggesting as a counter to my list. Not to mention the vanquisher will be shooting all game, whereas the vendetta will be a likely target for removal.

There isn't anything wrong with the vendetta because it can get killed. My current list has 2. It is just important to compare its actual damage output versus specific targets, like armor 14, and the fact that it can't provide your troop chimeras or PBS chimeras with a permanent 4+ moving cover save.

The vendetta is better at killing any other tank, but I already have 2 in my list. And along with my other shooting, I feel that all those other tanks are well covered. I want a third russ for screening purposes, and i want to combine that survivability with long range heavy armor kill. The vanquisher is up to that job.

bigtmac68 wrote:When I get time to post the results from this weekends test games against Crusher Spam, and Mech Lash you might see the difference. In 13 games now the Vendettas (plus cargo) have emerged as the stars of the army, coming in just ahead of my PRuss Squadron.

I can't wait to read them. Type! Type like the wind! And also, what have you been putting in your vendettas?

I will agree, cant really dispute the math of it, that a Vanquisher is better against Land Raiders, but I dont see how Land Raiders are an issue for you.

I have not run any test games against Raiderspam however, but with that many meltas and an agressive play style,,, I know that my Vulkan marines just love Land Raiders to death,,, literally.

As to what I have been putting in my Vendettas it varies per game, thats the joy of them. My opponent and deployment determine what goes in my Vendettas ( mystic is allways in the Valk)

Since I have two CCS meltas, One Flamer, One Melta, and One Plasma Vet squad I have plenty of options depending upon my opponent.

I will say that Melta CCS squads in Vendettas make Lash Princes Cry!

I'm not comparing the Vanquisher to Vendettas actually. I'm comparing it to the other main anti-tank unit that Guard have - Meltaguns. Ignoring the AP1 thing, Meltaguns and Vanquisher Cannons are the same - both get 2D6+8, both have an average penetration of 15, which means they'll get just about anything. Fine. The major difference is that the Vanquisher gets its 3 hits over the course of 6 turns. With Meltaguns you may only get one shot, but there are 3 or 4 of them in a squad, meaning you get the 2-3 hits in a single go, often at an angle that means they get no cover. I wouldn't ditch a Vanquisher to take a Vendetta, I'd ditch the Vanquisher because it's a lousy tank compared to Meltagun units.

Finally there's the in-game element, the psychological element. People are going to see a tank with a big honkin' space gun and toast it. Chances are the Vanquisher won't get to fire for all six turns, and that dramatically reduces its ability to kill things. Meltagun squads only ever need to shoot once, and if they live to shoot a second time it's a bonus.

I like the Vanquisher for it's long range anti-armor abilities. I'm fielding a squadron of 2 right now and contemplate putting Pask in a lone Vanquisher. I like the 2 Vanquishers right now more than Pask in a lone one. Those two Vanq's, with just a lone lascannon in the hull, make armor targets disappear one at a time.

I agree that the big cannons of the two Vanq's draw a lot of fire, which is why I give my oppoent more threats. I might be the only idiot to field 2 Manticores, but it presents 3 serious threats to any armored formation my opponent might field that the rest of my army is almost ignored.

I thought enemy Vendetta's coming inon the side would hurt the Manticores, but the Vendetta's come on around turn 3-4 (thanks to the advisors) and by then the Manticores have unleashed as many high str. templates as a Bassilisk would in 6 turns.

I think melta gun squads also give you a much greater flexibility when you have Vendettas available. You can mount them in thier Chims or in the vendettas depending on your opponent and the deployment situation.

You also can kill terminators, MC's use them for counter assault ect...

None of these things are good points for the Vanquisher. Your math is sound, but I think that the intangibles and flexibility will make the Vanquisher a less effective choice.

but thats what testing is for.

I hate putting my life in the hands of the dice, so I am not sure about the effectiveness of the Vanquisher, but I also know that when I have a AV14 vehicle camped out in the backfield and quite a few other AV12 threats on the board many people tend to ignore the AV14 cannon for what they feel are higher priority targets, that have meltaguns.

I am not sold on the Vanquisher, but the role I see it playing is one of sitting back and trying to destroy other backfield armor, other leman russes, predators, exorcists, or the rare land raider sitting in the backfield (or maybe less rare now that it would be driving into a melta line otherwise).. basically everything out of range for the meltaguns on turn 1 and 2 ... and maybe 3.

I think vendettas will do well against the non-Land Raiders when getting side or rear armor against AV12 or less, but having that additional long range anti-tank threat may be useful. If it becomes a priority target, well maybe it has done its job as the meltas get into better position.

In the rare instance you do fight horde, thats when I see it start to get trivialized

Just thinking out loud.

H.B.M.C. wrote:I'm comparing it to the other main anti-tank unit that Guard have - Meltaguns.

Well, I'll agree here that mathematically speaking the meltagun is a far superior land raider killer. But every marine player I know is taking 3 multi-melta dreadnoughts and 3 tactical squads with multi-meltas. There isn't a safe way to get standard melta onto a land raider. Marines create an umbrella of tank kill death to shield their expensive stuff from melta shots. (much like IG does) Part of the reason I have been looking at the devildog, is to copy that model of tiered firing. Lascannons to mobile multi-meltas to stationary multi-meltas to meltaguns. The space marines have the advantage of land speeder deep strikes, which acts as their long reach tank kill. I'm just looking for something for us. Its really too bad meltagun stormtroopers are 100 points and share slots with inquisitors and PBS. I suppose outflanking vendettas with inquisitorial stormtroopers could work. a lot slower of a set up time, but they don't die to mystics.

But you are right Big Troy, land raiders haven't been that much of a problem for me yet. I'm kind of surprised too. With two twin-linked lascannons and a multi-melta, shooting at two targets, you'd think it would have hurt more. I think my opponents just weren't rolling that well.

AbsoluteBlue wrote:In the rare instance you do fight horde, thats when I see it start to get trivialized

And that is the biggest problem with the vanquisher. Not everyone has gotten the memo that mechanized is the strongest way to play. People spent time and money on their armies, and tend not to just change their list and paint new models because of a new army. The 40k metagame doesn't shift that quickly, thanks to the 'hobby first' mentality (which I am glad of)

Every time I hit the table and the highest armor value is 12, or there is no armor, then the vanquisher is truly a turd.

Is there really a need to focus firepower specifically to kill land raiders? Why can't one use the strategy against monolith of shooting everything else to death and calling it a day? Spending all that time to kill landraiders is like trying to kill tri-falcon with shooting in the old days. If there is all those marines and dreads, killing them for cheap KP and removing scoring unit works just fine.

If I'm to do some I'd rather bring a manticore with camo-net and give vets autocannons....

From this http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/234631.page thread and http://s250.photobucket.com/albums/gg263/Crabstuffed/?action=view¤t=Wtf.gif , we see that a vanquisher+lascannon have a 15% chance of killing AV14, while vendetta have 13%... The vendetta is actually BETTER if you want to reduce incoming fire or get immobilized results since it causes more hits and glances even if not quite as much penetration.

If his math is correct, each BS3 meltagun gives a 16% kill chance, and by subtracting that from (the post added probabilities...) the demolisher we get 13% kill rate for S10 demolisher cannon and 13%+2% ~= 15% kill for demolisher with lascannon. If the manticore works just like two shots of the demolisher cannon, we get around 13*2 = 26% pk, far better than vanquisher and can do far more things in addition, the reality is a bit worst due to overkill of D3 hits, but not by that much.

SWPIGWANG wrote:Is there really a need to focus firepower specifically to kill land raiders? Why can't one use the strategy against monolith of shooting everything else to death and calling it a day? Spending all that time to kill landraiders is like trying to kill tri-falcon with shooting in the old days. If there is all those marines and dreads, killing them for cheap KP and removing scoring unit works just fine.

It has worked against single land raiders. How about 3 land raiders with multi-meltas? Something like that could just sit there and pick my transports and vendettas apart.

SWPIGWANG wrote:If his math is correct...

There are 20 dice combinations out of 36 that have at least one 5 or higher. That's 55% penetrating hits. Rolling a 7 or higher on 2d6 is 21 out of 36. So ordnance 10 has a tiny bit worse chance to pen. Vanquisher hits straight up 50/50. The demolisher hits 33% and about a third of the deviation distances keep the hole over the raider. So they are completely even in terms of ability to kill a tank. The HUGE difference that is easy to theoryhammer around, is that the demolisher had to wade into mobile multi-melta range to even try to take that shot. Chances are, it won't even get there, or just trade its single shot for almost guaranteed death from multiple mobile multi-meltas.

SWPIGWANG wrote:If I'm to do some I'd rather bring a manticore with camo-net and give vets autocannons....

Now a manticore with LOS has about an even chance of being worse than a vanquisher, a little bit better, or much better. If you don't have LOS to what you are shooting at, you can tweak those comparisons even more in favor of the vanquisher. A net and a good place to set up makes its survivability from front shots alightly more comparable. But no cover, side armor 10 makes it shredded by outflankers. It also won't ever be used to provide cover to anything else like the vanquisher would be able to do.

I don't mind those odds. And the manticore was something that I liked earlier on. definitely a viable option in addition to the medusa, but I wouldn't call it "far better" by a longshot.

Of Course If they are running 3 Raiders then they wont have the points for that anti melta screen.

That is a situation when you really want to go agressive, but I can see wanting to have that Vanquisher security blanket.

I havent played it yet but I just dont see Raider Spam surviving well against Melta Mech Guard.

Guess I need to add that to my gauntlet list, maybe a DH RaiderSpam list.

Way to go Shep, winning with Dark Angels! I've been saying for awhile that Mech DA is pretty competitive. I prefer Razors with 5 man melta squads but otherwise our lists are similar.

Personally, I would rather have a basic LRBT than a Vanq. LRBT can threaten armor when needed and still packs a good (long range) anti infantry punch.

Lets face it, against AV14 your only real option is close range meltaguns.

BoxANT wrote:Personally, I would rather have a basic LRBT than a Vanq. LRBT can threaten armor when needed and still packs a good (long range) anti infantry punch.

Lets face it, against AV14 your only real option is close range meltaguns.

I really hope that isn't true because if it is then AV14 > IG. I'm going to be testing lists with a Vanquisher, another with a Paskquisher, and a third with a Bastion Breacher Medusa, next week. We'll see how that goes. I have higher hopes for Paskquisher than the other two, with the Medusa pretty much the one I expect to do nothing to validate its inclusion in the list.

It has worked against single land raiders. How about 3 land raiders with multi-meltas? Something like that could just sit there and pick my transports and vendettas apart.

I'm not sure one could build a 3LR army while still having serious outflanking, a melta castle and enough other stuff to not instant-lose against the likes of deep strike army or hoard. Now if someone posts the lists then one can look carefully pick them apart.

Otherwise just throwing a unit that have one use against one unit in one army is a bit hasty imo.... (since there is better units for everything else)

Shep wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:... for 170 points. for less than a hammerhead with railgun. Don't let the ballistic skill fool you, its just as consistent as higher BS lower strength guns, you just discover that you have failed to pen one roll sooner.

Not true.
Hammerhead - 90 point
Railgun- 50 points
Twin Burst Cannon Drones - 10 points
Total: 150 points

Throw in this combo:
Hammerhead - 90 points
Railgun- 50 points
Twin Burst Cannon Drones - 10 points
Disruption Pod - 10 points
Flechette Launcher - 10 points

Now you have a 14/13/10 tank that has a main weapon that is either ST 10 AP 1, or ST6 AP4 Large Template at 72", as well as 6 ST5 AP5 shots at 18"
This vehicle receives a 4+ cover save anywhere, if the enemy is 12" away, and wounds on a 4+ in close combat. 170 points.