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Made in gb
Avatar of the Bloody-Handed God






Inside your mind, corrupting the pathways

JohnHwangDD wrote:National conscription isn't such a great benefit, nor does it drive high standards - ask Russia. I'm not impressed.


I accept your point that national service does not always produce high standards of trained individuals, however, we are not talking about some 2nd or 3rd world country, we are talking about the Swiss, who always do everything well

I would rather that retards not break into people's homes.


In an ideal world, certainly.

But as they do so, they should get whatever the hell that they deseve.

And if we honest, innocent taxpayers can be saved the cost of trail and incarceration, so much the better.


Don't get me wrong, I am all for protecting your home and family; I just don't believe that you require a gun to do so. As I have mentioned before, a ready source of guns just leads to escalation in a conflict. Escalation that is dangerous and need not take place.

I wish the laws here in the UK were more pro-home owner in terms of self defence but sadly this is not the case. Anything I do against an intruder in my own home may well result in my arrest. A sad result indeed.

   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas


(EDITED for being too harsh)
It is always interesting to me that non-US citizens seem to delight in discussing our freedom to bear arms. We are fortunate to have the freedom that you don't, as it helps to protect the other freedoms we have retained despite 200 hundreds years.

Further, these are the arguments of someone who's never had to deal with a stalker or someone actually trying to do them great harm.
How is my wife going to defend herself from an attacker? How about her aged parents?
The whole concept is stupid. Exterminate attackers, the more superior armed you are the better.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2009/09/17 15:41:39


-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in gb
Avatar of the Bloody-Handed God






Inside your mind, corrupting the pathways

I am quite shocked that you see my posts thusly, and indeed am quite shocked at your rather scathing and dismissive reply to them.

Granted this is an off topic forum, rather than a dedicated discussion forum, but I would have thought from the general flow of conversation here it can more or less be clearly seen that this is more of a discussion than anything else, and I would expect someone who obviously possesses a wealth of experience on (as well as being part of the structure of) Dakka such as yourself to be able to see that.

I would also expect that the banding of ideas and statements of personal point of view would not be taken as personal attacks on another individual or nation.

"I think that guns are not required for personal defence" =/= "You are an idiot, I hate your country and you all smell and should give up guns because I say so and am right".

I have at no point stated any judgement on your system. As far as I can recall, all my posts have been along the lines of increased number and availability of guns => increased gun crime.

Further, I have stated repeatedly that guns are designed for a single task: To kill people. By bringing a gun into any situation, you immediately raise the stakes to perhaps the ultimate level. In a society with few guns, the chances of someone taking things to this level are much more remote than when all you have to do is point and click.

Again, as has been stated by others, avoidance can always be used as a tactic for dealing with intruders. Your wife does not have to take on an attacker head on. Her aged parents can lock themselves in their room, or similarly leave the building and call the police.

Attack is not always the only, or best defence.

As I stated myself (and you kindly restated and commented upon), I have not been confronted by an attacker in my own home, but that does not mean that I have a) never been confronted by an attacker before, b) do not have a brain and can't think about how I would go about it. It also does not mean that I do not know how to contuct myself in a fight.

Again, as I have stated before, I wish that UK law was more in line with US law on home defence, which should go some way to demonstrating to you that I am not simply condemning America and its laws out of some "America-bashing" desire.

In fact, your conjecture about the relevance of my input to this discussion is more flawed than my own thinking on the subject of a requirement for guns to be necessary in home defence.

   
Made in us
Moustache-twirling Princeps





About to eat your Avatar...

Frazz wrote:The whole concept is stupid. Exterminate attackers, the more superior armed you are the better.


...



 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

SilverMK2 wrote:I am quite shocked that you see my posts thusly, and indeed am quite shocked at your rather scathing and dismissive reply to them.

Granted this is an off topic forum, rather than a dedicated discussion forum, but I would have thought from the general flow of conversation here it can more or less be clearly seen that this is more of a discussion than anything else, and I would expect someone who obviously possesses a wealth of experience on (as well as being part of the structure of) Dakka such as yourself to be able to see that.

I would also expect that the banding of ideas and statements of personal point of view would not be taken as personal attacks on another individual or nation.

"I think that guns are not required for personal defence" =/= "You are an idiot, I hate your country and you all smell and should give up guns because I say so and am right".

I have at no point stated any judgement on your system. As far as I can recall, all my posts have been along the lines of increased number and availability of guns => increased gun crime.

You are completely correct. After counting to 10 I went back and modified the post. Unfortunately you saw the original venting my spleen post. My apologies.


Further, I have stated repeatedly that guns are designed for a single task: To kill people. By bringing a gun into any situation, you immediately raise the stakes to perhaps the ultimate level. In a society with few guns, the chances of someone taking things to this level are much more remote than when all you have to do is point and click.

Here I call absolute BS. If someone's trying to kill you they are going to try to kill you. Better I have a gun to stop them from doing that.



Again, as has been stated by others, avoidance can always be used as a tactic for dealing with intruders. Your wife does not have to take on an attacker head on. Her aged parents can lock themselves in their room, or similarly leave the building and call the police.

Attack is not always the only, or best defence.

Again I call BS. Anyone with experience knows you can kick in a door with one or two kicks. An inside door-strioctly one kick. As the saying goes. When seconds count, the police are only minutes away.


As I stated myself (and you kindly restated and commented upon), I have not been confronted by an attacker in my own home, but that does not mean that I have a) never been confronted by an attacker before, b) do not have a brain and can't think about how I would go about it. It also does not mean that I do not know how to contuct myself in a fight.

Fights are for kids and rabbits. Have you ever been confronted by an attacker come to kill you? If not then your lack the proper paradigm here.


Again, as I have stated before, I wish that UK law was more in line with US law on home defence, which should go some way to demonstrating to you that I am not simply condemning America and its laws out of some "America-bashing" desire.

Word, again my apologies for the intial part of the first post. I was venting and have serious issues about the 2nd amendment due to real world conditions I cannot go into on a public forum (mods know, they've heard my private bitter rage about certain things).

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

Frazzled wrote:
(EDITED for being too harsh)
It is always interesting to me that non-US citizens seem to delight in discussing our freedom to bear arms. We are fortunate to have the freedom that you don't, as it helps to protect the other freedoms we have retained despite 200 hundreds years.

Further, these are the arguments of someone who's never had to deal with a stalker or someone actually trying to do them great harm.
How is my wife going to defend herself from an attacker? How about her aged parents?
The whole concept is stupid. Exterminate attackers, the more superior armed you are the better.


The thing is, Frazz, attackers in the USA are often as well armed as their victims, which results in crimes often being bloodier.

All other things being equal, you should expect to find a much lower rate of burglaries in the USA, with all the householders' guns, than a country with very tight weapon laws like Japan.

However it doesn't happen, and actually the USA has a much higher rate of violence and murders than Japan, because so many more people are tooled up.

This doesn't make an argument for gun control in the US -- personally I think it's impossible -- OTOH it doesn't mean that it would be good for other countries to widen gun ownership.

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in us
Moustache-twirling Princeps





About to eat your Avatar...

America is the land of cheeseburgers and shotguns... or didn't you know?


 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

Kilkrazy wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
(EDITED for being too harsh)
It is always interesting to me that non-US citizens seem to delight in discussing our freedom to bear arms. We are fortunate to have the freedom that you don't, as it helps to protect the other freedoms we have retained despite 200 hundreds years.

Further, these are the arguments of someone who's never had to deal with a stalker or someone actually trying to do them great harm.
How is my wife going to defend herself from an attacker? How about her aged parents?
The whole concept is stupid. Exterminate attackers, the more superior armed you are the better.


The thing is, Frazz, attackers in the USA are often as well armed as their victims, which results in crimes often being bloodier.

All other things being equal, you should expect to find a much lower rate of burglaries in the USA, with all the householders' guns, than a country with very tight weapon laws like Japan.

However it doesn't happen, and actually the USA has a much higher rate of violence and murders than Japan, because so many more people are tooled up.

This doesn't make an argument for gun control in the US -- personally I think it's impossible -- OTOH it doesn't mean that it would be good for other countries to widen gun ownership.

The thing is
1. Thats already occurred. Regardless I want my wife armed against a stalker. I have no clue why anyone would want less.
2. I live next to a border where people run machine guns. Gun laws in the US are irrelevant.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in au
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





Frazzled wrote:It is always interesting to me that non-US citizens seem to delight in discussing our freedom to bear arms. We are fortunate to have the freedom that you don't, as it helps to protect the other freedoms we have retained despite 200 hundreds years.


The idea that guns protect other rights has no relation to reality. The Iraqis under Saddam had assault rifles in their homes.

Further, these are the arguments of someone who's never had to deal with a stalker or someone actually trying to do them great harm.
How is my wife going to defend herself from an attacker? How about her aged parents?
The whole concept is stupid. Exterminate attackers, the more superior armed you are the better.


Yeah, earlier on I mentioned that you can guns themselves don't seem to matter much in violent crime stats (compared to poverty & drug abuse)... but what worried me about guns was paranoid gun culture. I was talking about the above.

“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

Yawn. The founding fathers disagreed with you. Their wisdom has served us well.

Concerning actual self defense. Again crime stats are not relevant to my point (although I can show plenty of stats as to crimes prevented via flashing handguns care of the FBI). To protect my family the greatest advantage is desirable. That currently is semiautomatic firearms and shotguns. If you have a different desire good for you and I hope it works out for you and I mean that with no disrespect. I am not taking that risk.

Here's a tip though, if the laws change I am still not changing.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in ca
Decrepit Dakkanaut





sebster:

Yeah, Somalia is living proof of how gun ownership enables a polite and law-abiding culture!
   
Made in us
Moustache-twirling Princeps





About to eat your Avatar...

ROCK OUT WITH YOUR SHOTGUN OUT!!! WOOT!!!




 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

Nurglitch wrote:sebster:

Yeah, Somalia is living proof of how gun ownership enables a polite and law-abiding culture!


And Cuba is an excellent example of one with strict gun control.
And Stalinist USSR
And Nazi Germany.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/09/17 18:18:17


-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Executing Exarch






Dallas, TX

Wrexasaur wrote:There is definitely a point to be had about him going from the house to the garage (which was entirely separate apparently), which I find to be a bit odd and vigilante-like, but at least in some way within his "feasible rights". Running into a dark area like a samurai just reeks of this kid being totally hyped to murder, that is all.
The garage is part of his place of residence. If he is being burglarized, and the story also said that the man lunged at him after being confronted, he has a right to defend himself and his property.

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-Illeix 
   
Made in us
Moustache-twirling Princeps





About to eat your Avatar...

I am looking at it if I were in the same situation, and running into dark spaces with swords drawn is like the ending to a samurai flick TBH.

Any experience I have in the city, dealing with alleyways and such, serves to prove my point. He went there with the clear intent of doing damage in my eyes.

In essence the castle law is one that serves to allow you to defend yourself and your family, whether or not that involves material stuff, you are taking action to protect yourself. Even if the guy DID lunge (this is the kids account, remember that) this cat had to walk at least a hundred feet with a sword (look at Conan go ), enter the garage, turn the light on, and all with the intent to use that sword, not to scare the guy off, but to hurt him.

So if he was actually trying to defend himself, as in the guy jumped in the window next to his head, I would see no problem whatsoever, but the kid was obviously pissed about his XBOX or w/e, and he had a goal of some sort in mind. I would think that the goal he had in mind, had very little to do with protecting himself and his roommates. I.E. he took the initiative and hunted this burglar down.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2009/09/17 18:14:28



 
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

Who? The student?

You would hardly go after someone with a sword if you didn't want to do them damage.

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in us
Wing Commander




The home of the Alamo, TX

The best gun control/society system imo would be one similar to the Swiss model. Mandatory military service and issue rifles to basically all households all the while having strict control.

I'm a big supporter of mandatory military or civil service - stronger, smarter population ftw...high school just doesn't cut it in terms of attaining adulthood and being a productive citizen.



 
   
Made in us
Moustache-twirling Princeps





About to eat your Avatar...

The burglar (from all accounts) was there to steal, which is obviously wrong, but he was not in the same area as the student.

So, if you hear noise, and no one is running AT YOU (before you confront them with a sword of course) call the police FFS. From what I understand, this student could have easily had enough time to call the cops (which I am not sure he did before going on the hunt), where minutes count, the police can help.

This student was just lucky the guy did not have a gun quite frankly, and that is the main point I am trying to make. Being in clear and present danger was not something this student had to address until he put HIMSELF, in that situation.

Kilkrazy wrote:You would hardly go after someone with a sword if you didn't want to do them damage.


I suppose, but at the very least I would expect that the student was trying to send a message. I am not sure if you have ever been confronted with a sword, but running at a person with one (while unarmed) is practically suicide. I would rather fight someone with a bat than a freaking sword, I tell you what.

Cane wrote:I'm a big supporter of mandatory military or civil service - stronger, smarter population ftw...high school just doesn't cut it in terms of attaining adulthood and being a productive citizen.


Sounds like a plan... but a plan that would be extremely hard to implement in the U.S. High school is really not cutting it anymore to say the least. Take a look at this new generation, ignorant they may be, but totally stupid they are not. Whether having a populace that is "equally" trained is necessary, I do not know.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2009/09/17 18:32:48



 
   
Made in gb
Slaanesh Veteran Marine with Tentacles





Sheffield. England

just post this is on a little note stuck to your window

"break into my house, and i will not be held responsible for your painful death"

 
   
Made in gb
Avatar of the Bloody-Handed God






Inside your mind, corrupting the pathways

Frazzled wrote:You are completely correct. After counting to 10 I went back and modified the post. Unfortunately you saw the original venting my spleen post. My apologies.


Don't worry about it, anyone can have a bad day, I have re-read your edited post and it is much nicer *forgets your old post*

Phew, all sorted.

Here I call absolute BS. If someone's trying to kill you they are going to try to kill you. Better I have a gun to stop them from doing that.


The assumption here is that someone is trying to kill you. My understanding is that most people breaking and entering will be doing it to a) get things they want, and b) get things they can sell later on.

Assuming (see, everyone can do it ) the above is the case and you are at home at the time, you come into the room where they are happily stuffing your TV into their pocket, they are most likley going to do one of 3 things (to a varying degree):

1) Panic and run off
2) Try to frighten you off (possibly including minor assult in order to scare you off and/or make their escape)
3) Attack you

Now, your assumption, however correct or incorrect it may be (given that it only takes one person wanting to kill you no matter how many times you have your house broken into by more passive folks and you are dead) that anyone breaking into your house will be prepared to, and possibly wanting to hurt and/or kill you. Given your assumption, you wish to own any measure of defence that you can, vis some kind of gun.

Now, here I can understand your desire. If someone was in fact breaking in in order to cause me personal harm.

Again I call BS. Anyone with experience knows you can kick in a door with one or two kicks. An inside door-strioctly one kick. As the saying goes. When seconds count, the police are only minutes away.


Again, here you are assuming that anyone on the property is there to cause personal harm. Yes, to an attacker who wants to hurt or kill you, a door will not hold out for long. However, against someone who is just there to steal some stuff, it provides them the chance to run away before the police arrive.

Fights are for kids and rabbits. Have you ever been confronted by an attacker come to kill you? If not then your lack the proper paradigm here.


Kill? Perhaps not, but then it did not progress to that kind of level. I think my point here about guns instantly putting you into the top level of conflict springs to mind. "What use is a knife in a nuke fight?"

If you, say, bump into some psycho who happens to be carrying a gun, he can, within a couple of seconds, have turned round and shot you full of holes. Remove the gun, and he may have a knife. But unlike bullets, you have a far better chance of dodging or blocking a knife than a bullet.

Hell, let's pretend that we live in a fantastical world where all weapons have been removed. He could turn round and try to beat you up. But again, this is a threat at a level below that of even knives. It takes more effort to kill someone with your fists than it does with a knife, and significantly more effort than to just shoot someone.

My point here is this: No matter what kind of situation you find yourself in, bumping into a psycho, walking into the wrong street wearing the wrong coloured shirt, etc, it gets increasingly harder to get out of that situation without holes in yourself if everyone is armed. If I were armed, and they were not, then I would have an advantage. If they were armed and I was not, they have the advantage, but will probably be more inclined to just tell me to begger off. If we are all armed, we are all equally disadvantaged. The only real way we can go is to shoot each other, or posture and withdraw.

I have possibly lost what I was trying to say here, but I am in the middle of making dinner, so am trying to remember how long things need to cook

The basic premise is that the more heavily armed you and everyone else is, the more likley you are to use those weapons.

Word, again my apologies for the intial part of the first post. I was venting and have serious issues about the 2nd amendment due to real world conditions I cannot go into on a public forum (mods know, they've heard my private bitter rage about certain things).


No problems.

I think we are simply looking at this from two utterly different points of view. I live in a country where there are very few guns and a lot of people will probably be able to get through their lives without ever seeing one in the flesh.

From reading some of your later posts, you live in a country where guns are pretty much everywhere, and as I mentioned above, the "haves" are at an advantage over those who "have not".

Here I can understand the need to have some kind of firearm in order to level the playing field somewhat (as well as for sporting activities, which I would love to be able to partake in).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/09/17 18:59:38


   
Made in us
Moustache-twirling Princeps





About to eat your Avatar...

SilverMK2 wrote:I think we are simply looking at this from two utterly different points of view. I live in a country where there are very few guns and a lot of people will probably be able to get through their lives without ever seeing one in the flesh.

From reading some of your later posts, you live in a country where guns are pretty much everywhere, and as I mentioned above, the "haves" are at an advantage over those who "have not".

Here I can understand the need to have some kind of firearm in order to level the playing field somewhat (as well as for sporting activities, which I would love to be able to partake in).


For the most part, people with guns in the U.S. are not quite as trigger happy as one would think. This is a very heavily populated country, so the large number of gun related violence (from a homeowners perspective) could be a very small statistical fraction.

In general, the main question I have for a responsible gun owner, would be how they plan to keep that gun safe, yet ready at all times. It just doesn't add up, you need to either have a loaded shotgun under your bed (fair enough I suppose, not safe, but logical), or you need to be able to open your gun cabinet, in time, without making the intruders aware of your actions. This is a particularly difficult thing to do, and the reason that I prefer crossbows... just saying .

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/09/17 18:56:39



 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




The kid did put himself in very real danger, yes. I am sure he did not go looking to kill the guy. He heard someone in his garage, grabbed something for defense and went to investigate. Odds are good the guy would have just taken what he wanted and left but there is also the chance the guy would have went into the house to try to grab something in which case the kid would STILL have had to defend his property.

Only the kid knows the true picture AND the authorities and I'm willing to bet if the cops suspected him of being the aggressor they would not have released him. The fact he was held overnight and questioned is not an uncommon practice. Even if the cops KNOW you killed in self defense they still will question you just to get the facts straight for the record.

I'm sorry that some feel that that Mr. Rice had as much right to be able to leave even after committing a crime than the kid had to defend his property. Chances are good that the guy would have gotten away before the police got there, with something belonging to the kid, or maybe not, hid out until the next night or day and then tried again. For whatever reason Mr. Rice was released 8 months early. Even on good behavior a person with that many priors is normally seen as a risk and will fulfill the full prison term, not be let out early.

I blame the system for Mr. Rice's death and I blame Mr. Rice for being that stupid as to attack someone holding a 3-4 foot long piece of sharpened steel. LOL. Had the student wanted to kill Mr. Rice he would have snuck into the garage without turning on a light and struck the man while he was obviously on his knees rummaging around under a counter/work bench.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wrexasaur wrote:
SilverMK2 wrote:I think we are simply looking at this from two utterly different points of view. I live in a country where there are very few guns and a lot of people will probably be able to get through their lives without ever seeing one in the flesh.

From reading some of your later posts, you live in a country where guns are pretty much everywhere, and as I mentioned above, the "haves" are at an advantage over those who "have not".

Here I can understand the need to have some kind of firearm in order to level the playing field somewhat (as well as for sporting activities, which I would love to be able to partake in).


For the most part, people with guns in the U.S. are not quite as trigger happy as one would think. This is a very heavily populated country, so the large number of gun related violence (from a homeowners perspective) could be a very small statistical fraction.

In general, the main question I have for a responsible gun owner, would be how they plan to keep that gun safe, yet ready at all times. It just doesn't add up, you need to either have a loaded shotgun under your bed (fair enough I suppose, not safe, but logical), or you need to be able to open your gun cabinet, in time, without making the intruders aware of your actions. This is a particularly difficult thing to do, and the reason that I prefer crossbows... just saying .


Mine personally I keep in the night stand next to my bed in a drawer. Full clip loaded. Upon awaking I can have gun in hand and safety off in 8-10 seconds. I also have my gun safe in my room that uses an electronic combo lock and can have that open in about 20 seconds (obviously takes a few seconds to get out of bed). I don't have kids in my house ever so I need not worry about having to lock up my handgun in the daytime.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/09/17 19:18:30


--The whole concept of government granted and government regulated 'permits' and the accompanying government mandate for government approved firearms 'training' prior to being blessed by government with the privilege to carry arms in a government approved and regulated manner, flies directly in the face of the fundamental right to keep and bear arms.

“The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government.”


 
   
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Just because Americans have the right to bear arms, doesn't mean that it is required. While I am sure this is understood, it is being treated as if it is the other way around. There seems to be a bit of "well I don't need one" kind of attitude going about. Well good for you, you don't have to have one. I don't own a firearm, I don't have the need for one.

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Frazzled wrote:
And Cuba is an excellent example of one with strict gun control.
And Stalinist USSR
And Nazi Germany.


Utterly irrelevant.

sA

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Ahtman wrote:Just because Americans have the right to bear arms, doesn't mean that it is required. While I am sure this is understood, it is being treated as if it is the other way around. There seems to be a bit of "well I don't need one" kind of attitude going about. Well good for you, you don't have to have one. I don't own a firearm, I don't have the need for one.


Yes, that's quite true.

However, the fact that so many people do have weapons helps make society as a whole more dangerous, for example, by easily turning trivial disputes into shooting matches, and by giving criminals a strong incentive to arm themselves. Guns are one reason why the murder rate in the USA is so much higher than most western democracies. When anger flares, a gun is far more likely to cause deadly wounding than fists, bats or even knives.

The point I was trying to make in my earlier post is that most Euro countries, Japan, Canada, etc. do not have such a tooled up society. Part of our fascination with the US situation is us thinking, "Thank feth we haven't gone down that road."

I know a lot of Americans strongly believe in the right to bear arms, and they can't understand why foreigners don't want to bear arms.

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

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Frazzled wrote:
Nurglitch wrote:sebster:

Yeah, Somalia is living proof of how gun ownership enables a polite and law-abiding culture!


And Cuba is an excellent example of one with strict gun control.
And Stalinist USSR
And Nazi Germany.



smiling Assassin wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
And Cuba is an excellent example of one with strict gun control.
And Stalinist USSR
And Nazi Germany.


Utterly irrelevant.

sA


Not utterly irrelevant. It's called a counter-point and they are used in debates. [See above quote]


   
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About to eat your Avatar...

Kilkrazy wrote:I know a lot of Americans strongly believe in the right to bear arms, and they can't understand why foreigners don't want to bear arms.


I am going to share a story to back up Kilkrazy's point here.

In West Oakland where I lived for quite a while, and in multiple locations, guns were seen monthly, if not weekly.

West Oakland is known for pot growers, and near a place I lived, there was a warehouse being used to do just this. I am talking about a serious operation, not small beans and rice pancakes status. Anyway, this guy grew pot, a gang broke in while toting AK47's and Tec 9's... the guy was dead before he had a chance to get his gun. End of story.

So the fact that criminals will inevitably have access to better weapons, in my eyes at least, means that no matter what, a homeowner with legal firearms is at a disadvantage by default. Having your cute little auto-glock is nice and all until you realize that you need illegal firearms to really be able to defend yourself. I will add that these cats with such weapons usually have absolutely no clue how to use them, but an AK47 is and AK47, and you will be hard pressed to out-shoot that with some buckshot.

In order to keep in line with the whole idea of being prepared with something that they may have before you know they have it... is nice until you realize you are fighting with a peashooter by comparison. Thinking of all criminals as idiots is... stupid... and the real deal criminals (the ones that spend time outside of jail dont ya know) are very smart, and they are basically pursuing a career in their own right. In short, the perps will always always always have the upper hand, simply because they get alpha strike... combined with experience in dealing with Conan the Homeowner.

This is obviously not in support of such criminals, but it should be noted that you are always at a disadvantage to a prepared criminal, and you should approach them as such. Being tough and mighty ain't naught but making your head a clearer target, tell you what.

OverbossGhurzubMoga wrote:Not utterly irrelevant. It's called a counter-point and they are used in debates.


Yeah that is it... oh yeah, so good... make sure you start as many flame wars as possible by picking up on the useless hit and run responses...

That was his first post, and probably his last in this thread. Let's try and make it count, eh?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2009/09/17 20:38:02



 
   
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Inactive


Let me just say this.... if the society regarding unwanted intrusion = death , many criminals would be having 2nd thoughts before deciding to break in a house to steal a xbox instead of doing legit hard work.

The intruding man's sister want the katana guy charged?
I lol'd .

At the end of the day , criminals that decided to ignore their victim's rights already forfeit their own rights . Why are people so lenient just for being "humane" to let them have so much leeway?

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Wrexasaur wrote:

For the most part, people with guns in the U.S. are not quite as trigger happy as one would think. This is a very heavily populated country, so the large number of gun related violence (from a homeowners perspective) could be a very small statistical fraction.

In general, the main question I have for a responsible gun owner, would be how they plan to keep that gun safe, yet ready at all times. It just doesn't add up, you need to either have a loaded shotgun under your bed (fair enough I suppose, not safe, but logical), or you need to be able to open your gun cabinet, in time, without making the intruders aware of your actions. This is a particularly difficult thing to do, and the reason that I prefer crossbows... just saying .


There are other options.






And of course iwith one of these you can sleep soundly and at ease:



This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/09/17 20:41:46


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