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Ironhide wrote:Going to have to say you are wrong there JEB. I can cite evidence in the Bible, where people went to heaven without the saving grace of Christ.

Please enlighten me further then...

Ahh... but how did she catch the STD? It was God's will!

Elijah?

@John: Yes, Manchu said it might have been as much.

Relapse wrote:The only ones that would be totaly cast from his presence would be those who, in this life, had a perfect knowledge with nothing doubting, that rejected God.

How can a "God" be all loving as you proclaim, yet cast out those who did not do exactly as he says? Surely an "all loving" God would accept you no matter what your beliefs were.

Gwar! wrote:

Relapse wrote:The only ones that would be totaly cast from his presence would be those who, in this life, had a perfect knowledge with nothing doubting, that rejected God.

How can a "God" be all loving as you proclaim, yet cast out those who did not do exactly as he says? Surely an "all loving" God would accept you no matter what your beliefs were.

Because if they had the perfect knowledge of him and rejected him, it would be more of a torment for them to be in his precense than out of it.

Manchu wrote:I do not think have much to do with this fallacy

I cannot see how you can describe the relgiosity of communism without the atheism is science fallacy. Its plain up in the doctrines of the Soviets and Chinese communist state.

If you are saying its not necessary for a Communist religious doctrine I would agree, other Comunist states left religion alone. by and large they saw less oppression.

Manchu wrote:Atheism actually is, after all, a scientific point of view.

Atheism is ultimately a choice, you can try to reach that point scientifically, but at some point you have to make a decision, sceince only takes you so far. Besides you are making a grave mistake if you think that even science is treated with entirely in a rational manner through scientific method. Pet theories etc abound as mentioned in an earlier thread. Man is not so advanced as to put science above reproach of human weakness. This plus the fact that some sort of faith is required to reach a conclusion of atheism (or any other faith) or that you can find evidence for other faiths through science heavily dilutes your point.

Manchu wrote: Here's the relevant syllogism: All that exists is empirically observable. God is not empirically observable. God does not exist.

I strongly challenge your doctrine on the point highlighted. Much of what we believe exists is not observable, in fanct the vast majority of it if we accept current theories on dark matter.

I would also challenge the final point because God as defined in scripture has the property of being able to move without trace.

He's got a point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ninja'd.

What's amusing is that the ability to be unobserved is also shared by the Flying Spaghetti Monster, Manchu's Invisible Pink Unicorn, along with the classic Invisible Green Dragon...

Your God is a sham!

@Orlanth: Manchu is simply pointing out some things which are quite interesting, and do clearly highlight some of the most solid arguements against the existence of god. Get of your high horse, mate.

JohnHwangDD wrote:What's amusing is that the ability to be unobserved is also shared by the Flying Spaghetti Monster, Manchu's Invisible Pink Unicorn, along with the classic Invisible Green Dragon...

Your God is a sham!

of course as well all know the flying spaghetti monster was an idea invented to mock modern religion. And is the proverbial straw man.

GG

JohnHwangDD wrote:What's amusing is that the ability to be unobserved is also shared by the Flying Spaghetti Monster, Manchu's Invisible Pink Unicorn, along with the classic Invisible Green Dragon...

Your God is a sham!

But he doesn't go unobserved. He, and his angels have been seen by various prophets and others throughout the ages.

Well, he DOES have a point.

Apparently

There is no (irrefutable) Proof that God exists.
There is no (irrefutable) Proof that God does not exist.

Therefore, it is your choice, based on a leap of faith.


Now let's see here...

There is no (irrefutable) Proof that a Spagetti Monster exists.
There is no (irrefutable) Proof that a Spagetti Monster does not exist.

Therefore, it is your choice, based on a leap of faith.

generalgrog wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:What's amusing is that the ability to be unobserved is also shared by the Flying Spaghetti Monster, Manchu's Invisible Pink Unicorn, along with the classic Invisible Green Dragon...

Your God is a sham!

of course as well all know the flying spaghetti monster was an idea invented to mock modern religion. And is the proverbial straw man.

GG

And Christianity was invented to mock Judaism. Q.E.D and all that jazz.

No it wasn't.

Well, frazzled, that's a matter of faith...

Emperors Faithful wrote:There is no (irrefutable) Proof that a Spagetti Monster does not exist.

Of course there is, since it was an invention in 2005 by Bobby Henderson of Oregon state univeristy as an attempt to mock the Kanas school boards attempt to get Intelligent design incorporated into it's school system curricula.

So please stop insulting us by bringing up the mockery invention of Bobby Henderson.

I find it insuling for you to do this.

GG

Emperors Faithful wrote:Well, frazzled, that's a matter of faith...

QFT.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

generalgrog wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:There is no (irrefutable) Proof that a Spagetti Monster does not exist.

Of course there is, since it was an invention in 2005 by Bobby Henderson of Oregon state univeristy as an attempt to mock the Kanas school boards attempt to get Intelligent design incorporated into it's school system curricula.

So please stop insulting us by bringing up the mockery invention of Bobby Henderson.

I find it insuling for you to do this.

GG

Christianity is an invention of some blokes in Palestine somewhere around 33AD. Pastafarianism has exactly the same legitimacy as any other religion.

I find it insulting that you would deny Pastafarianism when it meets the EXACT same criteria as any other religion.

When Christ talked with his apostles, I paraphrase here,he told them that "Other sheep have I that are not of this fold, and them I go to also and they shall hear my voice and there shall be one fold and one master"

There were Aztec legends of a "bearded white god" who came to them and said he would return at a later time.
According to historical accounts, Cortez was believed to have been this god, which was why he was not immediatly set upon.

Here's a link to some other parrallels between scripture and beliefs around the world.

http://www.innvista.com/culture/religion/deities/legends.htm

Emperors Faithful wrote:Well, frazzled, that's a matter of faith...

No its not. Don't be stupid.

Gwar! wrote:

generalgrog wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:What's amusing is that the ability to be unobserved is also shared by the Flying Spaghetti Monster, Manchu's Invisible Pink Unicorn, along with the classic Invisible Green Dragon...

Your God is a sham!

of course as well all know the flying spaghetti monster was an idea invented to mock modern religion. And is the proverbial straw man.

GG

And Christianity was invented to mock Judaism. Q.E.D and all that jazz.

What is Q.E.D in this context?

And of course Christianity wasn't invented. And also it does'nt mock Judaism.
Your post is filled with so much error it's laughable. :-)


GG

@Relaspe: I thought it was supposed to be the Feathered Serpent? Qzctelquotel...or however the hell the damn thing is spelt.

@GG: Sorry, mate, but I'm finding the logic behind some of these arguments to be a tad ridiculous. BTW, Bobby Henderson may have been the first "prophet" of the Spagetti Monster, but who can really say for sure when this being first came into existence?

Orlanth wrote:

Manchu wrote: Here's the relevant syllogism: All that exists is empirically observable. God is not empirically observable. God does not exist.

I strongly challenge your doctrine on the point highlighted.

It's not my doctrine at all. It is a foundational premise for engaging in the scientific method.

As to your point on Communism, yes there are religious Communists. After all, right before Marx wrote "religion is the opiate of the people" he wrote, quite beautifully, "religion is the heart of a heartless world." (In the same paragraph no less!) Still, I do not think there is any "religiosity" of communism. Perhaps you are speaking of a sort of nationalism, as in the Chinese example?

@EF: No leap of faith is required to come to the conclusion that God does not exist.

Relapse wrote:When Christ talked with his apostles, I paraphrase here,he told them that "Other sheep have I that are not of this fold, and them I go to also and they shall hear my voice and there shall be one fold and one master"

There were Aztec legends of a "bearded white god" who came to them and said he would return at a later time.
According to historical accounts, Cortez was believed to have been this god, which was why he was not immediatly set upon.

Here's a link to some other parrallels between scripture and beliefs around the world.

http://www.innvista.com/culture/religion/deities/legends.htm

Are you a Mormon? This sounds like either Mormon or possibly Jehovas witness stuff.

GG

@GG,
Yes

@GG,
Yes

Frazzled wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:Well, frazzled, that's a matter of faith...

No its not. Don't be stupid.

Yes it is! How dare you question my faith like that! You don't have any proof!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o76WQzVJ434

@Gwar!: I'm never sure if people who post things like this are actually interested in discussion or just want to get my thread locked. Please don't try and get my thread locked, if that's what you are doing. If you want to discuss, please extrapolate your argument as to why a joke at Christianity's expense ("Pastafarianism") is as legitimate a religion as Christianity.

@EF: Similarly, are you trying to get my thread locked?

Gwar! wrote:And Christianity was invented to mock Judaism. Q.E.D and all that jazz.

Why do people say stupid things like this?

Emperors Faithful wrote:Well, frazzled, that's a matter of faith...

I didn't know one could feel queasy from reading stupid statements...until now.

Emperors Faithful wrote:@Relaspe: I thought it was supposed to be the Feathered Serpent? Qzctelquotel...or however the hell the damn thing is spelt.

@GG: Sorry, mate, but I'm finding the logic behind some of these arguments to be a tad ridiculous. BTW, Bobby Henderson may have been the first "prophet" of the Spagetti Monster, but who can really say for sure when this being first came into existence?

As you well know, the idea came into existance in 2005. You and Gwar! need to stop being obtuse!! :-)

GG

Pastafarianism has exactly the same legitimacy as any other religion.

I find it insulting that you would deny Pastafarianism when it meets the EXACT same criteria as any other religion.

no way. The patafarians have no chance. All the spiritual messengers of the great Speghetti monster are utterly delicious with some marinara sauce.
Frazzled, eating the pastafarian' god with a nice tomato base for two millenia.