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Lord Manimal wrote:Not trying to beat a dead horse here, but I found this inside of GW's Imperial Armor Apoc Expansion, and it really, really pertains to this. All you gotta do is add in the words "special character" and you can see that even GW USED to care about this type of powergaming:



Bringing the Doom to a game in which I'm unprepared for it is pointless. As I'm understanding it, the new Spearhead addendum now allows Baneblades to be used in normal games; and it's completely legal. I haven't read it front to back yet, but that's what I was told just yesterday, so don't beat me up, if I'm wrong. lol Long as you don't mind me sneaking in a Baneblade or three into my 2000 point list, then your "using special characters is fine" arguments hold. Otherwise...

This argument does not work at all. A warhound Titan is not in any codex and is an Apoc unit. Special Characters are in codexes and are part of army builds. Anyone can deal with a Special Character it is simple there are so many ways to kill them it is not true. Sicarius dies from one lascannon/powerfist/krak missile shot as does Raganar, Shrike, Vulkan etc and these are just the ones I use. Abaddon is probably the hardest to deal with and he can be killed with a bit of focus. A titan/flyer/apoc deamon is very very different.

I think the permission to use special characters is a carry-over of GW trying to make extra "fluff" in the form of a character to further some story arc they have in mind.

Lately, the characters are just a unit they decide to give a name. If it is put in the list, the full intent is for it to be used. I get to use it or not, do I create two army lists in case permission is refused?

I do believe giving some warning of a "rabbit out of the hat" may be needed to ensure a good game for both players. It is a tough call if I field mainly tanks and my opponent goes hog-wild on loading up dark lances after I inform him. These games can be so much a rock/paper/scissors type of play that in the end to be safe, a good "all rounder" force I keep coming back to and these problems go away.

Human nature is to want to pull that uber all killing, cool model of doom that your opponent is helpless against. That is fun for the first 10 minutes then it gets old in a hurry. I would rather have a good scrap where I don't know if I will win or not until near the end. If a character destabilizes a game that badly, both players I am sure can decide that the game is done and then let's play for real.

If you sub out the word Titan with Special Character, it is, in fact the exact same thing. The assumption above is that you've both agreed to play an apoc game. The assumption as per our conversation is that we've agreed to play a normal game. In both cases, using titans/special characters is technically allowed. The argument is 100% valid, unless I'm missing something. Maybe if I re-write this in the context of a normal game.

"All gaming is a contract between two (or more) players for them to ALL enjoy themselves. It is not only about winning, although it is nice to win sometimes, it's about enjoying the game (cliche I know, but still true). Who wants to play the above game? It proves nothing except that a special character is a powerful thing and you need special equipment to take it on. Now, if my opponent had said he was going to use a special character I could have selected a different army and maybe put up a proper fight, and the game would have been more fun for me too.

This is entirely relevant; let go of the Titan example. The assumption in that writing is that you're going to be playing Apoc (it IS an apoc book) so taking the warhound is entirely legal. The assumption in our conversation is that we're playing a normal game, and therefor taking special characters is entirely legal. It's a direct 1 to 1 comparison; apples to apples.

So the Rabitty Hat thing . . . does this mean if someone uses a Land Raider and I have nothing that can take it out in my army this is unfair. Just watching the Land Raider cruise round my army blowing stuff up, then taking an objective at the end of the game (assuming it has a troop choice in it) . . . So no more Land Raiders for you sonny boy . . .

Seriously though, there is a massive difference between a Warhound Titan and an SC, a 'normal' army can't take out a titan, but can take out, or atleast neutralize an SC.

Oshova

Their special powers are often offset by their obscene costs.

Yeah that too. So come on guys, just lighten up, and stop being afraid of Mephiston . . . what can he do if he gets assaulted by terminators? . . . yeah that's right, 10 terminators =D Bring the pain guys!!!! =D

Oshova

Lord Manimal wrote: It proves nothing except that a special character is a powerful thing and you need special equipment to take it on.

This is a falsehood. Everything in the Codices can be dealt with with a properly balanced list.

Special Characters are merely commanders with set gear, an army wide bonus, and slightly improved stats.
None of these things puts them out of reach of an army that is properly set up.

I really don't get the argument.
Refusing a game due to a Special Character is tantamount to refusing a game because someone took Tactical Marines.
Both are valid codex entries that as an opponent you should be aware of.
Maybe you don't know the actual rules, but you know the character exists, so you prepare for that eventuality.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Oshova wrote:Yeah that too. So come on guys, just lighten up, and stop being afraid of Mephiston . . . what can he do if he gets assaulted by terminators? . . . yeah that's right, 10 terminators =D Bring the pain guys!!!! =D

Oshova

He kills 4 before you even think of swinging. Then you throw a couple wounds on him. He wins and runs you down. Then on his turn he flys to another assault and does it again.

You don't assault Mephiston. You shoot him. Preferably with high AP. He doesn't get an invulnerable save.
Just think of him as a Terminator squad with one base.

If I agree to play a normal, 2000 point game with my friends, I will not be surprised to see named characters running around. If it is in their codex, all is fair game. If you want to put 200+ points in a special character that doesn't have Eternal Warrior, then that's your call!

If I agree to a game of APOC with my friends, I'm prepared for anything. And it's happened:

A second super-heavy Eldar tank that my friend secretly put together.

A second super-heavy IG tank that my other friend secretly put together.

The IG bringing along some allies (Tyranids).

The Apoc sheets downloaded from the GW website.

Or I slap down the 40+ terminators I own but never told anyone about.

It's all fair game. And all of our games are friendly.

skrulnik wrote:

Oshova wrote:Yeah that too. So come on guys, just lighten up, and stop being afraid of Mephiston . . . what can he do if he gets assaulted by terminators? . . . yeah that's right, 10 terminators =D Bring the pain guys!!!! =D

Oshova

He kills 4 before you even think of swinging. Then you throw a couple wounds on him. He wins and runs you down. Then on his turn he flys to another assault and does it again.

You don't assault Mephiston. You shoot him. Preferably with high AP. He doesn't get an invulnerable save.
Just think of him as a Terminator squad with one base.

So 8x3=24 . . . so 12 hit, 6 wound, no save . . . remind me again how many wounds Mephiston has . . . I believe my point stands, special characters can be neutralised by an all-comers army. Obviously if your army is completely hordes and you face nidzilla, you're not going to do well, but that is a specialised list against what it's worst against. A standard list should be able to neutralise anything from any codex effectively.

Oshova

I personally like to bring up a previously discussed point where too many people have psychologically associated SCs with the ultra powerful characters in 2nd edition and a few of the bad ass SC in the current edition (Lysander, Abaddon, Nightbringer).

In my opinion SCs aren't game breaking, considering most characters short of 3++ EW are easy to kill with standard shooting and assault tactics. A lot of SC/HQs I deal with fall to my skull champ’s powerfist. Even the freaky SCs have weaknesses. Abby only has a 4++ save, Mephiston has no inv save, the Nightbringer can be killed with sniper/poison/rending spam. Most SCs also cost a fortune and can weaken an unbalanced army (such as Abby in a low points game), making a possibility of a win easier

If your afraid of an SC single-handedly white washing your army or have been white washed (and it wasn't caused by bad luck) than this was most likely caused by holes in your army/tactics.

Now if your gaming club has some kind of strict house rule where SCs need permission, that's cool, otherwise expect to see a SC in a list in any standard game as per 5th edition rules. The only time I believe people should ask permission for is when people want to use anything in a 40k expansion, such as FW, Spearhead, Apoc etc. Generally I would show my opponent my army list anyway before the start of the match. I play for fun and not for glory as it is a hobby with little plastic men.

Well, if we're requiring permission to use special characters, how about we start requiring permission for people to use dark eldar, because I never see them and am convinced that they are a figment of the worlds collective imagination (sarcasm). And how about permission to use necrons because they are cheesy. And lets make it opponents permission for melta weapons, dedicated transports, and nob bikers while we're at it.

I tend to stay away from them just cuz I like to make my own fluff. but if my opponent wants to use them then go ahead. just tell me if i ask about rules/stats on the guy.

Just air-dropping this in here. Don't bother paying any attention.

http://warhammer-empire.com/library/the-danse-macabre/comp-onion/

Lord Manimal wrote:If you sub out the word Titan with Special Character, it is, in fact the exact same thing. The assumption above is that you've both agreed to play an apoc game. The assumption as per our conversation is that we've agreed to play a normal game. In both cases, using titans/special characters is technically allowed. The argument is 100% valid, unless I'm missing something. Maybe if I re-write this in the context of a normal game.

"All gaming is a contract between two (or more) players for them to ALL enjoy themselves. It is not only about winning, although it is nice to win sometimes, it's about enjoying the game (cliche I know, but still true). Who wants to play the above game? It proves nothing except that a special character is a powerful thing and you need special equipment to take it on. Now, if my opponent had said he was going to use a special character I could have selected a different army and maybe put up a proper fight, and the game would have been more fun for me too.

This is entirely relevant; let go of the Titan example. The assumption in that writing is that you're going to be playing Apoc (it IS an apoc book) so taking the warhound is entirely legal. The assumption in our conversation is that we're playing a normal game, and therefor taking special characters is entirely legal. It's a direct 1 to 1 comparison; apples to apples.

No your argument has no validity whatsoever if I can't take an SC then you can't take any Elite choices (example) Get your head out of third edition and into 5th SC's are a basic part of the Codex you need no more permission to use them than you do to use troops choices or anything else in the codex. There is only one exception to this and that is when a TO says that there are to be no special characters but that is a totally different topic than the point of this thread.

I think with the codexes special characters are just part of the army and something you should expect. I mean I'm not going to tell my opponent about every other powerful unit in my army. The special characters do seem balanced though.

Lord Manimal wrote:Bringing the Doom to a game in which I'm unprepared for it is pointless.

Why would you not be prepared for it? It's a standard unit in a standard codex. If you are not prepared for it then the failure is yours. If you all-comers army list cannot fight reasonably well against all codex units then you have a problem.

As for your titan example - do you expect to see a titan in a 1500pt game? The answer to that would be no since it's a war machine choice and illegal in 40K armies. So to bring one without warning and expect to play it would, rightly, be unreasonable.

Also, you mentioned spearhead. A single war machine may be taken. If you've got an army geared to handle anti-tank (which you ought to for spearhead) then it's not a problem, is it? Especially since you knew full well that it was a possibility.


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Lord Manimal wrote:If you sub out the word Titan with Special Character, it is, in fact the exact same thing. The assumption above is that you've both agreed to play an apoc game.

Did you even read what you quoted? It talked about a titan in a 1500pt game - clearly not apoc.

Scott-S6 wrote:

Lord Manimal wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lord Manimal wrote:If you sub out the word Titan with Special Character, it is, in fact the exact same thing. The assumption above is that you've both agreed to play an apoc game.

Did you even read what you quoted? It talked about a titan in a 1500pt game - clearly not apoc.

In regards to this statement, if you have a problem with the quote, take it up with GW; they wrote the book. Matter of fact, Warwick Kinrade himself penned that bit, so feel free to send him a letter about it. Insulting my intelligence based upon his example of a 1500 apoc game doesn't really make my argument invalid. The book is Imperial Armor Apocalypse released October 2007 (not apocalypse 2 as I thought earlier).

Also, calling me a "comp onion" might be fair, as I believe in the "spirit of the game"; another imaginary construct in which both parties are entitled to have fun playing a "game". I happen to prefer playing scenarios in which things are not balanced, for this very reason. For those of you that need your daily sense of self worth from winning a game of Warhammer at all costs "because it's legal", we definitely do not need to be at the same game table, and I will politely decline your offer of a game.

However, maybe this bit, also from the same book sums up the arguments of both sides better than I can:


If it's codex legal; then go for it; feel free to ignore the idea that your opponent is entitled to have fun at the game too. After all, the concept of "fun" isn't in the codex, despite it being referenced time and time again in publication after publication. But hey, lets only pay attention to the parts that support our argument, eh? For those of us that appreciate a good game, then just don't play with most of the people posting in this thread. Just as they like to forget that "fun" is an integral part of the game, they're probably the same folks that tend to forget certain rules that don't work in their favor.

As long as we're being insulting, of course.

Edit: Nevermind. I've said my piece and I'm out.

You really don't get it do you?

You can't jump on your soap box and say 'the game is all about consent and fair play' when we are talking about basic units in the Codex that have been proved not to be OP broken or anything else it is the same as whinging that your opponent has had the temerity to take a Land Raider when you forgot to take Lascannons, Lances or Melta Guns.

Again I state your argument is not valid.

Given that he's apparently not even reading the snippet he posts, no, he certainly doesn't.

Then there's stuff like,

Lord Manimal wrote:Bringing the Doom to a game in which I'm unprepared for it is pointless.

How lousy of a list builder do you have to be to be unable to handle a T4 model, inv save or no?

Special characters? Bring them on, I dont mind. In fact for me it adds to the game because im more of a fluff player. If my guys have suddenly engaged with the
enemy and discover that at the heart of the enemies forces is a famous/infamous hero/villian then it adds to my enjoyment. Ill either die gloriously trying to kill/capture the guy
or ill succeed and capture the heretic/hero.

Are a legal choice in the codex? Yes, deal with it. I cannot think of a Character in the game that when placed on the table gives an automatic win.

@Lord Manimal by that arguement, should i ask my opponent if i can use my sternguard? they're certainly really cool models and have rules to win games. Can i use my predator? it bring alot of firepower and thats unfair, right? How about my scouts? no they got infiltrate and rending rules that certainly help me win games. So lets all only play tactical marines or better yet lets play with army mans and make sure everyone has fun and no one loses. Your arguement makes 0 sense....

Alright. You all win 1 free internetz! You have changed my mind. I now conform to the will of the majority. Now, can anyone help me figure out how to fit Abaddon, a wraithlord, the Doom and 2 landraiders into a 1500 point allies list? I can't wait to spring this new army on the folks at the gamestore. I bet I make at least one person quit playing there, in honor of being convinced I was wrong!

1. sarcasm? grow up, the world isn't always going to agree with you
2. wraithlords aren't special characters so now it would appear your complaining they're OP too
3. that list is pretty bad, doom is only T4 and abaddon is made of fail

Lord Manimal wrote:Alright. You all win 1 free internetz! You have changed my mind. I now conform to the will of the majority. Now, can anyone help me figure out how to fit Abaddon, a wraithlord, the Doom and 2 landraiders into a 1500 point allies list? I can't wait to spring this new army on the folks at the gamestore. I bet I make at least one person quit playing there, in honor of being convinced I was wrong!

No, no. I see your point. It really IS unfair for people to try to use stuff they're allowed in the codices. It's just too cheesy, and not fun for both players. As such, I have decided to start playing 40k in the way you propose. But I'm having a bit of difficulty with some areas. You see, I'm not quite sure what stops my opponent having fun. Would you mind writing or directing me to some sort of book, to regulate what people are allowed to bring to games? Otherwise we're going to get inconsistencies between what people believe is fair.

You spin me right round baby, right round, like a record baby right right round...

Seriously, kill this thread with fire...

I think Mephiston and 2 Land Raiders is fun. But my group doesn't think so, so I only run Meph OR the 2 Land Raiders.

Of course the one Nid player hasn't learned to keep Carnifex away from Mephiston yet.

CT GAMER wrote:You spin me right round baby, right round, like a record baby right right round...

Seriously, kill this thread with fire...

So, in summary : America is a land of contradictions or maize as the Indians called it. "Ever Decreasing Circles" was surprisingly dark and Penelope Wilton was ace in it and it is very unlikely a "99" Ice Cream was ever priced at that amount.

HOORAY !