Daemons and Grey knights

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**morgendonner**

You can't say that sometimes a unit description affects game play and sometimes it doesn't. That's not a rule then, that's just picking and choosing.

**iproxtaco**

Missed my point though. Fluff defines the rules a unit has, or the rules that GW wants a certain army to have will have background to support it. Daemon Prince's are described in the book as being Daemons, and yet there's no definite rule to say that, which is why it's contentious.

It's just a difference of opinion on how things are defined. The FAQ will clear this up, but as I said before, it will likely rule in favor of the Grey Knights, simply because it makes more sense.

**morgendonner**

I understand you're point, there's just nothing that supports it.

Fluff does not define the rules a unit has, it merely serves as inspiration for the writer. Fluff says space marines can spit acid, but they don't have a game rule allowing them to do so.

A unit's rules are the only words that matter, and anything else is just for icing on the cake for players to enjoy but ultimately not necessary to play a game.

And as I've said before I'm not debating what a future FAQ may rule, I have no problem with that. This has just been a debate on the current RAW.

**iproxtaco**

There's a lot that supports it actually.
Space Marine Chapters with their own book have extra and often changed rules because of their fluff. The vows of the Black Templars, the rules of the Death Company in The Blood Angels, many more similar occurrences in both.

**jbunny**

iproxtaco wrote:Missed my point though. Fluff defines the rules a unit has, or the rules that GW wants a certain army to have will have background to support it. Daemon Prince's are described in the book as being Daemons, and yet there's no definite rule to say that, which is why it's contentious.

It's just a difference of opinion on how things are defined. The FAQ will clear this up, but as I said before, it will likely rule in favor of the Grey Knights, simply because it makes more sense.

But Tau Stealth Suits are described as Stealthy, yet they do not have the Stealth rule... and you say they should not..hmm

**iproxtaco**

I never said they shouldn't, don't make things up. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Stealth suits have something to makes them 'stealthy' in some form.

**jbunny**

iproxtaco wrote:
Miraclefish wrote:
iproxtaco wrote:Amazing. You quote only a small part of my post which is part of a larger unified point, then go on to make a statement that doesn't relate to said quote.

Those are the names of weapons that can be taken as upgrades for units. They don't have descriptions. My quote talks about the descriptions of units, which can tell you what the unit is.

The name only confirms what a unit is after you read the description. Striking Scorpions. Maybe you would think they were scorpions, that's why you read their description, to find out that they are actually members of an Aspect shrine which has a doctrine and weapon load-out similar to the physiology and behavior of a scorpion. You'd be very stupid to take the names literally too.

So does that mean that my Tau Stealth Team have the Stealth USR and +1 to all cover saves? Awesome, cheers dude!

Why you would come to that conclusion I have no idea.

Seems like you just said they should not have Stealth... and BTW Night Fight =/= Stealth

**GoDz BuZzSaW**

jbunny wrote:
iproxtaco wrote:
Miraclefish wrote:
iproxtaco wrote:Amazing. You quote only a small part of my post which is part of a larger unified point, then go on to make a statement that doesn't relate to said quote.

Those are the names of weapons that can be taken as upgrades for units. They don't have descriptions. My quote talks about the descriptions of units, which can tell you what the unit is.

The name only confirms what a unit is after you read the description. Striking Scorpions. Maybe you would think they were scorpions, that's why you read their description, to find out that they are actually members of an Aspect shrine which has a doctrine and weapon load-out similar to the physiology and behavior of a scorpion. You'd be very stupid to take the names literally too.

So does that mean that my Tau Stealth Team have the Stealth USR and +1 to all cover saves? Awesome, cheers dude!

Why you would come to that conclusion I have no idea.

Seems like you just said they should not have Stealth... and BTW Night Fight =/= Stealth

Stealth is a lot better than nightfight, especially consider Stealthsuits max range is 18" and you only need a 6 on 2 dice to see them when you return fire. I'd take stealth over nightfight any day.

**iproxtaco**

jbunny wrote:
iproxtaco wrote:
Miraclefish wrote:
iproxtaco wrote:Amazing. You quote only a small part of my post which is part of a larger unified point, then go on to make a statement that doesn't relate to said quote.

Those are the names of weapons that can be taken as upgrades for units. They don't have descriptions. My quote talks about the descriptions of units, which can tell you what the unit is.

The name only confirms what a unit is after you read the description. Striking Scorpions. Maybe you would think they were scorpions, that's why you read their description, to find out that they are actually members of an Aspect shrine which has a doctrine and weapon load-out similar to the physiology and behavior of a scorpion. You'd be very stupid to take the names literally too.

So does that mean that my Tau Stealth Team have the Stealth USR and +1 to all cover saves? Awesome, cheers dude!

Why you would come to that conclusion I have no idea.

Seems like you just said they should not have Stealth... and BTW Night Fight =/= Stealth

Did I say that? And did I say this "Night Fight" was Stealth? No, actually. The Daemon Prince is unique in that it's fluff does not reflect it's rules when it should. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Night Fight obviously gives an advantage, and is present because the Stealth Suits are described as being 'stealthy'.

**jbunny**

I agree. But do keep in mind the range is 24" so you need an 8 still very doable when the average is 7

This is in agreement with BuzzSaw, and not Iproxtaco

BTW, while you did not say the exact words, when someone suggest a unit should have a rule, and you say "Why you would come to that conclusion I have no idea" It is the same thing as saying they should not have the rule.

**MaliceAngel**

Honest to goodness. 9 pages of arguments regarding if daemons are really daemons? C'mon guys...

iproxtaco, I agree that the intention of The Heretic That Shall Not Be Named (M.W) was for Grey Knights to have PE over the disputed units. However, in his infinite wisdom he left it up to the players to connect the dots as to what a daemon is and the result was this.

This proves that no good can come of Matt Ward.

MA.

**iproxtaco**

jbunny wrote:I agree. But do keep in mind the range is 24" so you need an 8 still very doable when the average is 7

This is in agreement with BuzzSaw, and not Iproxtaco

BTW, while you did not say the exact words, when someone suggest a unit should have a rule, and you say "Why you would come to that conclusion I have no idea" It is the same thing as saying they should not have the rule.

By your interpretation of it, it's not what I actually meant though. Night Fight, gives them some form of stealth-esque rule correct?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

MaliceAngel wrote:Honest to goodness. 9 pages of arguments regarding if daemons are really daemons? C'mon guys...

iproxtaco, I agree that the intention of The Heretic That Shall Not Be Named (M.W) was for Grey Knights to have PE over the disputed units. However, in his infinite wisdom he left it up to the players to connect the dots as to what a daemon is and the result was this.

This proves that no good can come of Matt Ward.

MA.

Exactly, it's down to our interpretation until the FAQ.

**jbunny**

So they can have Stealth in their name, have Stealth in their Fluff, but not have Stealth in their rules as long as they have something Stealthy in their rules?

OK so Deamon Princes can have Deamon in their name, some Deamon in their fluff, but they MUST have Deamon in the rules? Not anything deamony, they must be Deamons.

**MaliceAngel**

jbunny wrote:So they can have Stealth in their name, have Stealth in their Fluff, but not have Stealth in their rules as long as they have something Stealthy in their rules?

OK so Deamon Princes can have Deamon in their name, some Deamon in their fluff, but they MUST have Deamon in the rules? Not anything deamony, they must be Deamons.

Kudos on the word "Daemony" I'm going to petition it to go into the Oxford English Dictionary

Also, one would assume that if something states it is a Daemon in its fluff and name it would be a Daemon in the rules.

MA.

**iproxtaco**

jbunny wrote:So they can have Stealth in their name, have Stealth in their Fluff, but not have Stealth in their rules as long as they have something Stealthy in their rules?

OK so Deamon Princes can have Deamon in their name, some Deamon in their fluff, but they MUST have Deamon in the rules? Not anything deamony, they must be Deamons.

They don't have to a have a rule the exact same name as their unit title or their description, just something that represents this. I've asked twice for clarification on "Night Fight".
And yeah, if it's described as being a Daemon, I'd expect there to be a side note in the rules or a Special Rule to represent this, as being a Daemon has some significance in the game as well.

**GoDz BuZzSaW**

morgendonner wrote:This is just getting stagnant. You don't need a description to play 40k.

If some prankster at GW last minute decided to change the Space Marine Captain's description to say "this guy will never fight a tyranid", that would have 0 impact on a game. Surely you can't be suggesting that if somebody slipped that into a Codex that from then on a player couldn't use a SM Captain against a tryanid?

It would be quite ironic considering his picture is a captain fighting Tryanids in his 'Forces of the Space Marines' Entry

**Miraclefish**

iproxtaco wrote:
jbunny wrote:So they can have Stealth in their name, have Stealth in their Fluff, but not have Stealth in their rules as long as they have something Stealthy in their rules?

OK so Deamon Princes can have Deamon in their name, some Deamon in their fluff, but they MUST have Deamon in the rules? Not anything deamony, they must be Deamons.

They don't have to a have a rule the exact same name as their unit title or their description, just something that represents this. I've asked twice for clarification on "Night Fight".
And yeah, if it's described as being a Daemon, I'd expect there to be a side note in the rules or a Special Rule to represent this, as being a Daemon has some significance in the game as well.

Chaos Possessed Marines are described as having a daemon hosted within their body. Do you count them as Daemons also? It's in the fluff, it's implied in the name...

**jbunny**

iproxtaco wrote:
jbunny wrote:So they can have Stealth in their name, have Stealth in their Fluff, but not have Stealth in their rules as long as they have something Stealthy in their rules?

OK so Deamon Princes can have Deamon in their name, some Deamon in their fluff, but they MUST have Deamon in the rules? Not anything deamony, they must be Deamons.

They don't have to a have a rule the exact same name as their unit title or their description, just something that represents this. I've asked twice for clarification on "Night Fight".
And yeah, if it's described as being a Daemon, I'd expect there to be a side note in the rules or a Special Rule to represent this, as being a Daemon has some significance in the game as well.

I actually already stated night fight =/= stealth. It does not make them stealthy

**iproxtaco**

They're not described as actually being Daemons. It's one where fluff has to be used to define what it is. It's debatable. Are the bodies separate from the Daemon within? Or is the Daemon now part of the Marine wholly, so it is now a Daemom? Either way, it depends on whether the Grey Knights would affect the Daemon inside.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

jbunny wrote:
iproxtaco wrote:
jbunny wrote:So they can have Stealth in their name, have Stealth in their Fluff, but not have Stealth in their rules as long as they have something Stealthy in their rules?

OK so Deamon Princes can have Deamon in their name, some Deamon in their fluff, but they MUST have Deamon in the rules? Not anything deamony, they must be Deamons.

They don't have to a have a rule the exact same name as their unit title or their description, just something that represents this. I've asked twice for clarification on "Night Fight".
And yeah, if it's described as being a Daemon, I'd expect there to be a side note in the rules or a Special Rule to represent this, as being a Daemon has some significance in the game as well.

I actually already stated night fight =/= stealth. It does not make them stealthy

Yeah I said, but what does the rule do!?

**Miraclefish**

It says 'possessed by a daemon'. Fluff has zero impact on the game. None whatsoever. It could say 'this unit is immortal' but if it has Wounds and a Save and no special rule, it isn't. End of.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Stealth Teams have the Stealth Field Generator. When shooting, roll two dice, multiply the result by three. That's how far you can see. If they're more than that away, your shooting fails.

**iproxtaco**

As I have said maybe five times already, fluff and rules are intertwined. Rules create fluff and fluff creates rules. If a Possessed is then stated as being a Daemon, it should have a rule to reflect that, as being a Daemon has quite a bit of significance in game terms.
And Immortal is different from invulnerable by the way.

So in actuality, Stealth teams have a rule which reflects them being stealthy. Amazing.

**GoDz BuZzSaW**

jbunny wrote:I agree. But do keep in mind the range is 24" so you need an 8 still very doable when the average is 7

This is in agreement with BuzzSaw, and not Iproxtaco

BTW, while you did not say the exact words, when someone suggest a unit should have a rule, and you say "Why you would come to that conclusion I have no idea" It is the same thing as saying they should not have the rule.

The range of the burst cannon is 18" and FB is 12", so it depends whether you kit out your suits with FB's for Anti Tank or BC's for Anti Infantry and whether you're using JSJ to full effect. Otherwise if you're using them to get close then it's pretty pointless.

**Miraclefish**

Uhh, I've not represented invulnerable at any point. Immortal means can't be killed.

And Stealth Teams have Wargear which has a Special Rule. The Special Rule being the bit that gives them that effect, not the name of the unit, not the name of the fluff.

If the rule is not there, it doesn't matter what the name is or what it says in the fluff.

**GoDz BuZzSaW**

Miraclefish wrote:Uhh, I've not represented invulnerable at any point. Immortal means can't be killed.

And Stealth Teams have Wargear which has a Special Rule. The Special Rule being the bit that gives them that effect, not the name of the unit, not the name of the fluff.

If the rule is not there, it doesn't matter what the name is or what it says in the fluff.

Exactly, it states that Daemons cannot truly be killed in the fluff, so I won't be taking any models off the table when I play you Iproxtaco...

**iproxtaco**

Immortal is defined by having an infinite life-span providing nothing interferes with that. Invulnerable would mean that they can't be killed. If something is described as being Immortal, they can still be killed.

So, Stealth Teams still have a rule that reflects that they're stealthy.

Yes it most certainly does.

Also, I would go and read about why Daemons can't be truly killed, your knowledge is lacking.

**GoDz BuZzSaW**

iproxtaco wrote:Immortal is defined by having an infinite life-span providing nothing interferes with that. Invulnerable would mean that they can't be killed. If something is described as being Immortal, they can still be killed.

So, Stealth Teams still have a rule that reflects that they're stealthy.

Yes it most certainly does.

Also, I would go and read about why Daemons can't be truly killed, your knowledge is lacking.

They do get banished back to the warp, but seeing as the warp can easily be used by the chaos gods, who can say they can't just be teleported back?

**iproxtaco**

The fluff says so. It's takes significant preparation and power to manifest in the Material realm. Once a Daemon is banished, it then becomes a part of it's God, and has to beg and plead to get it's Gods attention to be re-born. There's also a cool-down period before they can come back once banished.

**Miraclefish**

Lets pick another character: Lucias the Eternal.

"...who can never truly be killed."

So, can he be taken out of play? It says he can never truly be killed right there in his fluff.

**iproxtaco**

Read his fluff again.

**GoDz BuZzSaW**

Miraclefish wrote:Lets pick another character: Lucias the Eternal.

"...who can never truly be killed."

So, can he be taken out of play? It says he can never truly be killed right there in his fluff.

He's Slaanesh, no one likes him so I think every gamer would want to see him dead :L

But on a more serious note, he should THEN have a rule that if he is killed he should replace the model that killed him, based on what you are saying.