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What do you do when Fluff and rules contridict? What one wins out?

<message redacted - let's stay polite, shall we?> --Janthkin

Fluff makes reading the dex's interesting and gives a background. Rules make the game, end of.

And Fluff makes the rules, same thing happens the other way round.

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:

Miraclefish wrote:Lets pick another character: Lucias the Eternal.

"...who can never truly be killed."

So, can he be taken out of play? It says he can never truly be killed right there in his fluff.

He's Slaanesh, no one likes him so I think every gamer would want to see him dead :L

But on a more serious note, he should THEN have a rule that if he is killed he should replace the model that killed him, based on what you are saying.

Agreed.

But, here's my point. His name is Lucius the Eternal. His fluff says he can't be killed.

By the logic that a Daemon Prince is called a daemon and is described as a daemon thus should be affected by GK abilities and weapons, Lucius also should not be able to be killed. What I'm saying is that unless the rule is there in black and white it doesn't matter one iota what the name and story say.

Well it clearly does.
Lucius also survives by taking over the body of the person who kills him. The effect isn't immediate, I recall it saying it could take weeks, and it is also not known if it can be resisted.

Miraclefish wrote:

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:

Miraclefish wrote:Lets pick another character: Lucias the Eternal.

"...who can never truly be killed."

So, can he be taken out of play? It says he can never truly be killed right there in his fluff.

He's Slaanesh, no one likes him so I think every gamer would want to see him dead :L

But on a more serious note, he should THEN have a rule that if he is killed he should replace the model that killed him, based on what you are saying.

Agreed.

But, here's my point. His name is Lucius the Eternal. His fluff says he can't be killed.

By the logic that a Daemon Prince is called a daemon and is described as a daemon thus should be affected by GK abilities and weapons, Lucius also should not be able to be killed. What I'm saying is that unless the rule is there in black and white it doesn't matter one iota what the name and story say.

I agree with you totally, but I am trying to say that if Iproxtaco denies that this rule should happen, then he is contradicting himself on the fact that he claims 'Fluff makes rules and whatever is in the fluff or even in the name of a person.'

If you are saying this:

CSM, are in fact, Space Marines, so, even though they are separate from the Space Marines, it states in the fluff they have no fear. All chaos should then have 'And they shall know no fear' As in the fluff a chaos marine never runs away and would have no question in sacrificing his soul in combat by killing as many as he can to please his gods.

As they are still space marines they should also have 'Combat tactics'

But they're CHAOS Space Marines, with their own fluff.
I also never stated my opinion on Lucius, don't jump to answer for me.

iproxtaco wrote:But they're CHAOS Space Marines, with their own fluff.

This also means that CHAOS space marines are different to CHAOS Daemons, as they both have their own individual fluff.

Wait... Does this mean a Daemonhost from GK's gets wounded by my Runepriest on a 2+?

Well yeah, Chaos DAEMONS, are different from Chaos SPACE MARINES.

Debatable, it's basically a possessed, in the same category as Possessed Marines and The Defiler.
What's so different about a rune-priest?

iproxtaco wrote:Well yeah, Chaos DAEMONS, are different from Chaos SPACE MARINES.

Debatable, it's basically a possessed, in the same category as Possessed Marines and The Defiler.
What's so different about a rune-priest?

A rune priest's runic weapon wounds DAEMON Models on a 2+

In the fluff a Chaos Daemon prince has no mentioning that it actually IS a Daemon, rather a Mortal being granted immortality.

They have weapons that wound daemons on a 2+.

Stella Cadente wrote:<message redacted - let's stay polite, shall we?> --Janthkin

Point made.

I am still waiting on my question of what happens when rules and fluff disagree.

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Well yeah, Chaos DAEMONS, are different from Chaos SPACE MARINES.

Debatable, it's basically a possessed, in the same category as Possessed Marines and The Defiler.
What's so different about a rune-priest?

A rune priest's runic weapon wounds DAEMON Models on a 2+

In the fluff a Chaos Daemon prince has no mentioning that it actually IS a Daemon, rather a Mortal being granted immortality.

Which has already been mentioned and has the same target specification as Preferred Enemy: Daemons.

Actually, since it is actually mentioned as being a mortal champion granted Daemonhood, it is stated as being a Daemon. That's where the argument has come from.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jbunny wrote:I am still waiting on my question of what happens when rules and fluff disagree.

Care to give an example? Otherwise, it's cleared up in an FAQ, or we have a 10 page thread on the matter.

iproxtaco wrote:
Also, I would go and read about why Daemons can't be truly killed, your knowledge is lacking.

They can, it just almost never happens because of the sheer power required in a psyker to utterly annihilate someone's soul. With the exception of the four Chaos Gods, the only one that springs to mind with enough power is the Emperor.

jbunny wrote:I am still waiting on my question of what happens when rules and fluff disagree.

from who?

Also, Preferred enemy: Daemons, would be ONLY for the Daemon prince from the Daemon Codex, since it means models from there. Preferred enemy is also made for one codex only, unless stated.

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:

jbunny wrote:I am still waiting on my question of what happens when rules and fluff disagree.

from who?

Also, Preferred enemy: Daemons, would be ONLY for the Daemon prince from the Daemon Codex, since it means models from there. Preferred enemy is also made for one codex only, unless stated.

Actually, targets under the Preferred Enemy rule are supposed to be specified in the rule in the codex the rule is a part of. The Grey Knights version, does not state a codex, or models, it states that it affects Daemons in general. Therefore, everything that is a Daemon is affected. Unless you can state otherwise.

iproxtaco wrote:

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:

jbunny wrote:I am still waiting on my question of what happens when rules and fluff disagree.

from who?

Also, Preferred enemy: Daemons, would be ONLY for the Daemon prince from the Daemon Codex, since it means models from there. Preferred enemy is also made for one codex only, unless stated.

Actually, targets under the Preferred Enemy rule are supposed to be specified in the rule in the codex the rule is a part of. The Grey Knights version, does not state a codex, or models, it states that it affects Daemons in general. Therefore, everything that is a Daemon is affected. Unless you can state otherwise.

But this is exactly the same argument we are going on about, and that means that as fluff wise anything that has something to do with a Daemon, Posessed, Daemonhost, Defiler, Daemonic Possession etc all affected by that preferred enemy, but they aren't.

in the unit description, does the unit consist of x->Y deamon models? I don't have a codex to access the unit entry

iproxtaco wrote:Actually, targets under the Preferred Enemy rule are supposed to be specified in the rule in the codex the rule is a part of. The Grey Knights version, does not state a codex, or models, it states that it affects Daemons in general. Therefore, everything that is a Daemon is affected. Unless you can state otherwise.

And lesser daemons and daemon princes in the Chaos Space Marines Codex aren't Daemons as they do not have the Daemon Special rule. This is our point.

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:

jbunny wrote:I am still waiting on my question of what happens when rules and fluff disagree.

from who?

Also, Preferred enemy: Daemons, would be ONLY for the Daemon prince from the Daemon Codex, since it means models from there. Preferred enemy is also made for one codex only, unless stated.

Gonna need a cite on this, since I addressed this back on page 7-8.

Right, but I can't give you another argument to the same point I and others have argued over and over.
Well, yes, anything that is associated with Daemons in that way, as the rule refers to everything like that. Care to explain why not?

Miraclefish wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Actually, targets under the Preferred Enemy rule are supposed to be specified in the rule in the codex the rule is a part of. The Grey Knights version, does not state a codex, or models, it states that it affects Daemons in general. Therefore, everything that is a Daemon is affected. Unless you can state otherwise.

And lesser daemons and daemon princes in the Chaos Space Marines Codex aren't Daemons as they do not have the Daemon Special rule. This is our point.

False, Lesser and Greater Daemons in the CSM codex have a rule that specifically states they are daemons (pg 61). If you are requiring the "Daemon" rule to have the "Preferred Enemy" kick in, you are adding in an additional requirement that is not required by the Grey Knights Codex or the Preferred Enemy rule.

Daemon Princes have no such rule, and as such cannot be counted.

Miraclefish wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Actually, targets under the Preferred Enemy rule are supposed to be specified in the rule in the codex the rule is a part of. The Grey Knights version, does not state a codex, or models, it states that it affects Daemons in general. Therefore, everything that is a Daemon is affected. Unless you can state otherwise.

And lesser daemons and daemon princes in the Chaos Space Marines Codex aren't Daemons as they do not have the Daemon Special rule. This is our point.

Then you are wrong, because a Lesser Daemon is so obviously a Daemon that it hurts my sanity to argue about it not being one. Some people can argue about a Daemon prince as there are admittedly different sorts described in BL books and the like. In the codex however, the unit that is the Daemon Prince is described as a mortal raised to Daemonhood.

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:

jbunny wrote:I am still waiting on my question of what happens when rules and fluff disagree.

from who?

Also, Preferred enemy: Daemons, would be ONLY for the Daemon prince from the Daemon Codex, since it means models from there. Preferred enemy is also made for one codex only, unless stated.

From anyone who says the fluff makes the rules.

I gave you an answer, also, the rules make the fluff as well. Get it right jeez.

I thought perfered enemy effects an army not just specific models (has perfered enemy against gretchin, assult marines, wraith gaurd) it just gets slily other wise

cheapbuster wrote:I thought perfered enemy effects an army not just specific models (has perfered enemy against gretchin, assult marines, wraith gaurd) it just gets slily other wise

+ 1 to this

Deamons meaning Codex Deamons....

It perhaps should, although IIRC, it's not what the BRB says, and not what the rule in the GK codex says. It would be easy if all the affected units were in the same book, but because of this cross-over between books there's an argument. It then doesn't help when He Who Must Not Be Named didn't give us any specification. It would be easier if they were in a single Forces of Chaos Codex, and you could just say, well everything in that book. The reality however is much more complicated.