Why Hate Matt Ward?

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**pretre**

Also, speaking of Index Astartes...

Codex Astartes - (Rick Priestly and Andy Chambers) echoes the IMPERIUMs preference for Ultramarine based descendents and how most chapters venerate Gulliman as their founding father and patron.

Warriors of Ultramar - (Graham McNeil) this continues the theme of Perfection with Ultramarines. Saying that they have the most perfect geneseed and the most secondary foundings, making them the most revered chapter.

Purge the Unclean - (Graham McNeil) Mentions that the GK go through great lengths to prevent corruption by daemons and 'thus far have proven to be effective'. Opening the door to GK falling from grace. Also in the same article, GK each carry blasphemous knowledge and have the greatest repository of blasphemous tomes in the Imperium. In fact, the information they use is so hazardous that they have killswitches on the servitors that maintain it so as to prevent daemonic possession.

Index Astartes was compiled in 2002, btw.

**Draigo**

Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:
pretre wrote:So, my point above about Necrons. Ward did not change their fluff.

Also, see the original Index Astartes for GK saying that no GK had fallen to chaos 'yet', indicating they could. That was years ago. Ward did not change their fluff.

And the whole 'almost retconned sob out of the book'. Where did you get that? SOB got more information in the Main rulebook than GK.

When you say clearly demonstrably false things, it is hard to take your arguments seriously.

I see. However it can also depend on how you decipher the word "yet". I always understood it as a clear sign they could never fall to Chaos, since they had fought for millenia already. I always thought it as a "The world can end" type of thing.

They have dabbled into it a few times. One glaring example was Counter's story Hammer of Daemons. In that he showed a lot of flaws in the gk and how chaos could corrupt a gk.

**pretre**

Really, the problem with Ward hate is that the haters do not have a solid grasp of the history of fluff, so attribute everything they don't like about the fluff to him. This is especially problematic when those elements predate his work.

**Battle Brother Ambrosius**

pretre wrote:Also, speaking of Index Astartes...

Codex Astartes - (Rick Priestly and Andy Chambers) echoes the IMPERIUMs preference for Ultramarine based descendents and how most chapters venerate Gulliman as their founding father and patron.

Warriors of Ultramar - (Graham McNeil) this continues the theme of Perfection with Ultramarines. Saying that they have the most perfect geneseed and the most secondary foundings, making them the most revered chapter.

Purge the Unclean - (Graham McNeil) Mentions that the GK go through great lengths to prevent corruption by daemons and 'thus far have proven to be effective'. Opening the door to GK falling from grace. Also in the same article, GK each carry blasphemous knowledge and have the greatest repository of blasphemous tomes in the Imperium. In fact, the information they use is so hazardous that they have killswitches on the servitors that maintain it so as to prevent daemonic possession.

Index Astartes was compiled in 2002, btw.

I understand and know that they were said to be the most noble and pure chapter there is. However, that is no excusion of making 70% of C: SM venerate them as it does. 4th ed Codex mentioned them and told of their greatness, but not in the way 5th edition one does. They have a perfect geneseed? Good. But there is no reason to push them down from everyone's throats like Ward does. He mentions them in about every Codex he writes.

**Draigo**

Well I think that has to do with the lack of exposure of some groups. I mean aside from cameos the gk as far as I know only have that 3 book series about them. As we know the codex fluff makes the armies seem invincible so a majority only know the codexes. So to this point the majority of the mass have recieved the "propoganda." I'm not 100 for sure on this but it could be an explanation. I know at first some ofthe new fluff kinda was jarring to me so I can't be too critical.

**Experiment 626**

Eldar ironically have it pretty good against the GK mess... Their runes of warding can pretty much negate every single psychic power. Doom & fortune still work well enough and the warlock powers are unblockable throug hany means. (other than killing the warlock!)

No, the books that got utterly fethed by GK's are;
- Daemons. Litterly no point in playing the game unless you're running a fateweaver build. Even then, outside of tournaments the GK players can very easily decide to quake-shunt the entire table and auto-win the game...
All the big problems daemons suffer from are simply exploited by the new GK's as they have the game's best mech, best anti-horde, best wound allocation shinanigans AND all their special anti-daemon rules to top things off!

- Tyranids. On par with daemons ironically... Pointy-death-sticks everywhere means the multi-wound beasties are even more crap, grenades that specifically counter the 'nids main strength (stupid psychos!) army-wide S5 shooting, easy to spam rending, clensing flame BS.

- Orks. Don't have it as bad as the other two, but clensing flame on it's own can win the game for the shiny marines, especialy against foot hordes! Psyfleman dreads can also take-out whole squads of killa kans in a single phase on a good day.

Three freaking armies that are litterly b-slapped by a single codex! Okay, it's not quite as bad as the fantasy daemons feth-up, but still, pretty sad when you're looking at your collection of hundreds of dollars knowing you can't take them to tournament anymore because the scene is flooded by 'shiny special marines'

**pretre**

Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:I understand and know that they were said to be the most noble and pure chapter there is. However, that is no excusion of making 70% of C: SM venerate them as it does. 4th ed Codex mentioned them and told of their greatness, but not in the way 5th edition one does. They have a perfect geneseed? Good. But there is no reason to push them down from everyone's throats like Ward does. He mentions them in about every Codex he writes.

You do realize that Ultras and successors make up >50% of foundings, right? This is all well-established before Ward even started working at GW. Heck, Codex: Space Marines in 2nd Edition was called ... wait for it... Codex: Ultramarines.

Also, where's that reference to Ultras in C:BA?

Sure he references them in C:SM and C:Newcrons. Heck, the biggest re-intro for Newcrons was a book about them fighting Ultras. Are we calling Cruddace a Ultra fanboy because he mentions Macraage in C: Tyranids?

Get past the blind hate and think critically.

**Draigo**

Experiment 626 wrote:Eldar ironically have it pretty good against the GK mess... Their runes of warding can pretty much negate every single psychic power. Doom & fortune still work well enough and the warlock powers are unblockable throug hany means. (other than killing the warlock!)

No, the books that got utterly fethed by GK's are;
- Daemons. Litterly no point in playing the game unless you're running a fateweaver build. Even then, outside of tournaments the GK players can very easily decide to quake-shunt the entire table and auto-win the game...
All the big problems daemons suffer from are simply exploited by the new GK's as they have the game's best mech, best anti-horde, best wound allocation shinanigans AND all their special anti-daemon rules to top things off!

- Tyranids. On par with daemons ironically... Pointy-death-sticks everywhere means the multi-wound beasties are even more crap, grenades that specifically counter the 'nids main strength (stupid psychos!) army-wide S5 shooting, easy to spam rending, clensing flame BS.

- Orks. Don't have it as bad as the other two, but clensing flame on it's own can win the game for the shiny marines, especialy against foot hordes! Psyfleman dreads can also take-out whole squads of killa kans in a single phase on a good day.

Three freaking armies that are litterly b-slapped by a single codex! Okay, it's not quite as bad as the fantasy daemons feth-up, but still, pretty sad when you're looking at your collection of hundreds of dollars knowing you can't take them to tournament anymore because the scene is flooded by 'shiny special marines'

Most tourney lists for GK don't quake.. Most common are purifier or coteaz neither have quake. Most outside of the dreads dont use psy bolt since its too expensive.

Everything kills nids. Did you forget mechvets, dl de spam, joww, and such? Many sw rules specically target mc.

Again did you forget splinter racks, mechvet, long fangs, ig tank spam?

Seems to me a bandwagoner on the hate. You forget a squad of lootas can destroy purifiers with one round of shooting or one defrolla squish.. most are only 5 models strong. Try again

**Battle Brother Ambrosius**

pretre wrote:
Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:I understand and know that they were said to be the most noble and pure chapter there is. However, that is no excusion of making 70% of C: SM venerate them as it does. 4th ed Codex mentioned them and told of their greatness, but not in the way 5th edition one does. They have a perfect geneseed? Good. But there is no reason to push them down from everyone's throats like Ward does. He mentions them in about every Codex he writes.

You do realize that Ultras and successors make up >50% of foundings, right? This is all well-established before Ward even started working at GW. Heck, Codex: Space Marines in 2nd Edition was called ... wait for it... Codex: Ultramarines.

Also, where's that reference to Ultras in C:BA?

Sure he references them in C:SM and C:Newcrons. Heck, the biggest re-intro for Newcrons was a book about them fighting Ultras. Are we calling Cruddace a Ultra fanboy because he mentions Macraage in C: Tyranids?

Get past the blind hate and think critically.

In Codex BA, he praises his Ultramarines on page 10, titled The Ordering of the Host. He tells about Guilliman's excellent book and about how the BA were the first chapter to adopt it's teachings.

I also know they were the first Chapter GW made, but those days are far behind. There are tons of other chapters which could be described in more detail in C: SM. Back in 4th ed, they were present, but so were other chapters. It was a very versatile Codex. Ward just gues on about the Ultramarines, and barely tells about other chapters. Ward's history section is basically just how Ultramarines founded the Imperium and how they fought with Imperial Fists. And he has many different Ultramarine heroes and just a couple of guys from other chapters.

I would understand if he mentioned them in some books with less accurracy. For example, Cruddace does not always laud how good Imperial Guard or Tyranids are. Ward plunges Ultramarines into every book, not just as a chapter appearing them, but he always tells about them in detail and gives the image on how perfect they are.

**Experiment 626**

Draigo wrote:Well I think that has to do with the lack of exposure of some groups. I mean aside from cameos the gk as far as I know only have that 3 book series about them. As we know the codex fluff makes the armies seem invincible so a majority only know the codexes. So to this point the majority of the mass have recieved the "propoganda." I'm not 100 for sure on this but it could be an explanation. I know at first some ofthe new fluff kinda was jarring to me so I can't be too critical.

GK's feature heavily in the Ultramarines novel 'The Killing Ground'. Leodegarius was pure epic-win - especially when he kicked the crap out of Uriel & Pasanius!

And sure, every single army has brutal builds, but the GK ones tend to be more obnoxious than the rest because they're so heavily slanted in what they do well;
- GK mech is tops because they can all but ignore stun/lock counters that every other mech suffers from, or else has to pay through the nose to defend against. (ie: all marines pay 7.5 skaven slaves to downgrade stunned to shaken, GK's for only a 3rd of the cost get to ignore it outright by simply passing a Ld10 test!)

- Clensing flame = borderline game-breaking. Against meq's it's annoying at best, against geq's & hordes it's outragously godly! I've scene many times a squad of 6 purifyers wipe the floor with a full squad of 30 orks for maybe the loss of 1 or 2 whole marines... (and that's with the orks charging!)
Hitting every single model is the problem, if it just worked against those in BtB it wouldn't be nearly so harsh against armies that already are behind the curve.

- Psychos = outright broken. They shouldn't exist. Sure they're random and all, but there's too many results that just leave such a foul taste in your mouth...

- Psyflemen are needed as anti-tank sure, but the things are so damn under-costed it's not even funny. If they were 35pts more few people would complain and they'd still be good.

- Warp Quake shouldn't be on 2 units. Okay, it won't likely happen in a tournament unless the GK player is an idiot or knows that every other army in attendance will be relying on deep strike, but the fact that GK's can do it reeks of bad rules design.

- Psybolts I agree aren't worth it on most squads, but full strike squads like them alot, as do regular full man termie squads. Again, likely won't see it as a build gracing the tourny scene, but not every game is a tournament game either...

Sure all the other books have their godly lists and problem children, but they also tend to be a bit easier to counter... Long fangs for example have no ablaitive wounds on their squads so while they're cheap for what you get, any shooting is dangerous to them!
Dark eldar lance spam is nasty for mech lists sure, but hordes laugh at it and it's not like DE vehicles are hard to kill! (okay, a run of 5+ saves IS annoying when it happens!) The poisoned weapons are a blessing and a curse at the same time, and anyways, MC's have sucked all through 5th ed, so it's not like DE or SW 'killed them'
Parking lot IG are only a real problem if you insist that every single game must be played on the Emperor's most finely sculpted football pitches! (seriously, does no one play with terrain anymore?!!)

GK's though with their abusive builds can lead to alot of very boring and insanely one-sided games, because some of their best lists require out-right tailoring to counter! (ie: draigowing which requires you to min/max your S8+ ap1/2 weapons, which some armies utterly lack ot begin with due to the wound allocation shinanigans!)

**pretre**

Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:In Codex BA, he praises his Ultramarines on page 10, titled The Ordering of the Host. He tells about Guilliman's excellent book and about how the BA were the first chapter to adopt it's teachings.

No, he talks about the Codex Astartes. You know, the defining book (written by Roboute Gulliman) that 95% of chapters follow. Of course he talks about it. Heck, the SW codex talks about it. It is the defining book for every chapter. Either they use it or they don't. You can't write a SM book without talking about the Codex. In fact, the UM aren't even mentioned. The entire thing is just 'RG's Codex Astartes' at the top of the page, that's it. Give me a break.

I also know they were the first Chapter GW made, but those days are far behind. There are tons of other chapters which could be described in more detail in C: SM. Back in 4th ed, they were present, but so were other chapters. It was a very versatile Codex. Ward just gues on about the Ultramarines, and barely tells about other chapters. Ward's history section is basically just how Ultramarines founded the Imperium and how they fought with Imperial Fists. And he has many different Ultramarine heroes and just a couple of guys from other chapters.

But the point is that those days aren't. They are >50% of all chapters in the fluff and I would gamble that they are a pretty large chunk of actual playing forces. I don't happen to have my 2nd, 3rd and 4th ed SM codexes in front of me, but I would be willing to bet that page count Ultras vs other chapters and character count Ultras vs other chapters are the same or even more in previous versions. You are just wrong here. Go grab your old codex and do the count.

I would understand if he mentioned them in some books with less accurracy. For example, Cruddace does not always laud how good Imperial Guard or Tyranids are. Ward plunges Ultramarines into every book, not just as a chapter appearing them, but he always tells about them in detail and gives the image on how perfect they are.

Ultramarines are defeated or whipped horribly many times in the actual codex: Battle of Macraage. Fall of Damnos. Hive Fleet Kraken. Examples from other codexes about Ward's 'detail and how perfect they are' please.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
In fact, where are they even mentioned in C:GK or C:BA?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
3rd Edition C:SM had 2 Ultra characters (Calgar and Tigurius), a CF, Emperor's Champ, Xavier and Lysander. So 2 to 4.

2nd Edition C:Ultras only had Ultra characters + LOTD and was made for all Codex chapters (i.e. not Angels of Death or Space Wolves). Chief Librarian Tigurius , Marneus Calgar, Ultramarines Chaplain Cassius, Ancient Helveticus, Captain Invictus, Legion of the Damned. So 5 to 1 (if you count LOTD)

4th Edition C:SM had Kayvaan Shrike , Captain Lysander of , Chaplain Cassius , Tigurius, Tyrannic War Veterans , Ultramarines Honour Guard, Marneus Calgar. So 5 Ultra to 2 Non.

So one codex wasn't majority Ultras and that was 3rd ed.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Amusingly enough, Lexicanum has this to say about the 4th ed Codex:
"This was only the 2nd generic Space Marine codex, although it focused much more strongly on the Ultramarines Chapter than its predecessor."

Written by Pete Haines and Graham McNeill

**Draigo**

Experiment 626 wrote:
Draigo wrote:Well I think that has to do with the lack of exposure of some groups. I mean aside from cameos the gk as far as I know only have that 3 book series about them. As we know the codex fluff makes the armies seem invincible so a majority only know the codexes. So to this point the majority of the mass have recieved the "propoganda." I'm not 100 for sure on this but it could be an explanation. I know at first some ofthe new fluff kinda was jarring to me so I can't be too critical.

GK's feature heavily in the Ultramarines novel 'The Killing Ground'. Leodegarius was pure epic-win - especially when he kicked the crap out of Uriel & Pasanius!

And sure, every single army has brutal builds, but the GK ones tend to be more obnoxious than the rest because they're so heavily slanted in what they do well;
- GK mech is tops because they can all but ignore stun/lock counters that every other mech suffers from, or else has to pay through the nose to defend against. (ie: all marines pay 7.5 skaven slaves to downgrade stunned to shaken, GK's for only a 3rd of the cost get to ignore it outright by simply passing a Ld10 test!)

- Clensing flame = borderline game-breaking. Against meq's it's annoying at best, against geq's & hordes it's outragously godly! I've scene many times a squad of 6 purifyers wipe the floor with a full squad of 30 orks for maybe the loss of 1 or 2 whole marines... (and that's with the orks charging!)
Hitting every single model is the problem, if it just worked against those in BtB it wouldn't be nearly so harsh against armies that already are behind the curve.

- Psychos = outright broken. They shouldn't exist. Sure they're random and all, but there's too many results that just leave such a foul taste in your mouth...

- Psyflemen are needed as anti-tank sure, but the things are so damn under-costed it's not even funny. If they were 35pts more few people would complain and they'd still be good.

- Warp Quake shouldn't be on 2 units. Okay, it won't likely happen in a tournament unless the GK player is an idiot or knows that every other army in attendance will be relying on deep strike, but the fact that GK's can do it reeks of bad rules design.

- Psybolts I agree aren't worth it on most squads, but full strike squads like them alot, as do regular full man termie squads. Again, likely won't see it as a build gracing the tourny scene, but not every game is a tournament game either...

Sure all the other books have their godly lists and problem children, but they also tend to be a bit easier to counter... Long fangs for example have no ablaitive wounds on their squads so while they're cheap for what you get, any shooting is dangerous to them!
Dark eldar lance spam is nasty for mech lists sure, but hordes laugh at it and it's not like DE vehicles are hard to kill! (okay, a run of 5+ saves IS annoying when it happens!) The poisoned weapons are a blessing and a curse at the same time, and anyways, MC's have sucked all through 5th ed, so it's not like DE or SW 'killed them'
Parking lot IG are only a real problem if you insist that every single game must be played on the Emperor's most finely sculpted football pitches! (seriously, does no one play with terrain anymore?!!)

GK's though with their abusive builds can lead to alot of very boring and insanely one-sided games, because some of their best lists require out-right tailoring to counter! (ie: draigowing which requires you to min/max your S8+ ap1/2 weapons, which some armies utterly lack ot begin with due to the wound allocation shinanigans!)

I would certainly agree in a best case scenario cleansing flame can be very effective and psyfleman are pretty darn cheap point wise but so are ig suads who can field 5 lc, ravagers, etc. But why not mention if the squad of boyz gettin to shoot and charge the purifiers instead of just the best case scenarios? People never use worst case scenarios or mention that for a purifier squad your paying around 300 pt and a boyz squad is half that. Can you really be suprised? If you could pay 150 pts for a squad that is equal to my 300 I'd be just as annoyed. If you took purifier spam vs dl spam.. Assuming the purifers had 3 to 4 dreads and rhinos while the de had 3 ravagers, a few venoms and 3-4 raiders all armed with dl.. how are the de at a disadvantage? 20-30 dl shots to the dreads 12.. Then once destroyed the purifiers can be insta killed by those same lances. As far as the paladins, yes they are studly but squads of 5 you can kill with just causing them to have to make a lot of amor saves. Mathammer can say what they want but dice dont always care what the calculations say.

**AlmightyWalrus**

Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:I have thought about some of the biggest fails Ward has made this far. I also thought about some pros about him.

Fails
Well, his fluff is just terrible with a big T. He writes as if he was on drugs or something here are a few examples.

Ridiculous concepts
-Flying Librarian Dreadnoughts -Why is it silly? It's an army of angels that specialize in airborn assaults.

-Epic heroes who can solo entire armies. This includes:
*Mephiston, who was miraculously resurrected three days after a building fell on him(Yeah, i know about Grimaldus, but his case was more realistic) He fought bare handed and tore the Ork Warboss's heart out with his hands. Also defended a temple alone for hours unarmed. - Not Ward's fluff, he's been around since 2nd edition...

*Kaldor Draigo, who basically went alone inside the warp and soloed entire Daemon worlds. According to the lauding and praising of Ward, he could have killed the Dark Gods themselves by dickslapping them. - We've just had a 20+ page discussion that turned rather heated towards the end. Let's just agree to disagree.

-Praising the Ultramarines to the point where Tigurus is as powerful if not even more powerful as the Emperor himself, Marneus Calgar can outsmart even Tzeench and where all other Space Marine Chapters with the exception of Raven Guard, Black Templars and Space Wolves think that the Ultramarines are the best of the best and revere them to the point of saccharine. Tigurius has always been one of the most powerful psykers in the Imperium. Hyperbole on who looks up to the Ultramarines is not going to aid your cause

-Grey Knight Dreadknights have caused much negative feedback from players due to their rather silly appearance and overpowered rules. Now you're just trolling. I can agree with the model being questionable at best, but OP? Please.

-Sisters of Battle always die in his fluff. ALWAYS. Either they are killed by Grey Knights for no reason or by a single Daemon. A daemonic plague that could kill the Grey Knights is no reason? Physical and spiritual corruption is different, the Grey Knights can still be killed by daemonic powers.

Failures with rules
-In Warhammer Fantasy Battle the rulebook for 6th edition Chaos Daemons was so broken that it almost destroyed the game. No player could hope to win them and their fluff was also altered severely. Again, hyperbole. Dark Elves and Vampire Counts could still fight them. Agree on it destroying the game though, but you really need to get your facts straight.

-Grey Knights are so over powered that new players will find it extremely hard if not impossible to defeat them. They are a big challenge even to more experienced players, with their mass teleporting armies, +2 armors, Psycannon spam and special character. Armies using a lot of psykers or Daemons like the Eldar or Chaos Daemons will be in serious trouble with this army. Also destroyed their fluff. There's this thing called the Runes of Warding that totally shuts down the Grey Knight's ability to cast psychic powers. Furthermore, you're not gonna have a mass teleporting, 2+, psycannon spam army that wins against good players consistently, it just doesn't happen. Finally, going back to their old fluff of killing people because they have to and committing atrocities in the name of the Emperor is bad? People complain that there's too much new fluff, so GW gets some of the old fluff back. People complain. What a suprise...

Failures with fluff
-Over ten years of Grey Kinght fluff was thrown in the garbage bin as Ward got to work on them. He made it so they could turn to chaos, he made Kaldor Draigo a 10 foot-tall Jesus and made them kill innocent Sisters of Battle. See above on why you're wrong on every account.

-Codex: Space Marines turned out to be a Codex: Ultramarines as Ward wrote it almost entirely from their perspective. According to him, all other marine chapters worship Roboute Guilliman as their "Spiritual Liege" and revere the Ultramarines more than anything else, seeking to be like them. He thinks that Ultramarines are perfect in every way. Basically it is like bad fanfic. He made the non-codex chapters like the Raven Guard and Space Wolves look bad and deranged and went to racist mode with the Salamanders. He insists that their skin is dark because of a genetic flaw instead of an intentional adaption in order to survive on the surface of Nocturne. He can't stand any other armies besides his own. All other SM books he writes are praising the Ultramarines even more. It's always been Codex: Ultramarines. Sure, it's a bit over the top now, but it's not suprising really. Furthermore, the Grey Knight Codex doesn't exactly glorify the Smurfs, so your last argument is outright false.

-He almost retconned the Sisters of Battle out of the fluff in the main rulebook. He also had an effect on the huge orientation of armored units we have today.
Yes, he's totally the one and only person who's responsible for the 5th edition damage tables and the fact that SW and IG spam armour like it's nobody's business.

Disclaimer: I made a nicer version, but Dakka erased everything when I was done, so all you're gonna get is this sloppy answer instead.

You raise a lot of valid points, but they drown in the complete rubbish you also spout, which is really a shame. You'd be taken a lot more seriously if you didn't complain about non-issues and stuff that isn't even Ward's doing in the first place. Feel free to disagree with me, but you'd better have some arguments to back your opinion up.

**1hadhq**

pretre wrote:

..but I would be willing to bet that page count Ultras vs other chapters and character count Ultras vs other chapters are the same or even more in previous versions. You are just wrong here. Go grab your old codex and do the count.

3rd Edition C:SM had 2 Ultra characters (Calgar and Tigurius), a CF, Emperor's Champ, Xavier and Lysander. So 2 to 4.

4th Edition C:SM had Kayvaan Shrike , Captain Lysander of , Chaplain Cassius , Tigurius, Tyrannic War Veterans , Ultramarines Honour Guard, Marneus Calgar. So 5 Ultra to 2 Non.

So one codex wasn't majority Ultras and that was 3rd ed.

3rd ed fluff was also mostly non-ultramarines, but the 3rd ed book had to play host for the mini-codices. So even less ultramarinish ..
Crimson fists at the cover for example.
Seems your idea to bet wasn't that good. Page count and character count point at a rise of the UM.
4th ed had traits to diversify the non-UM tough. In 5th you need SC to do that and thats where the high headcount of UM-characters ties the options to UM so you have to copy a UM instead of a range of characters of various chapters.

Still funny you disproved yourself.

**pretre**

1hadhq wrote:Still funny you disproved yourself.

How so?

2nd was all Ultra Chars.
3rd was 2 Ultra to 4 non.
4th was 5 to 2.
5th was 5 to 5.

5th had more non-ultra characters than any other codex.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Page counts will have to come from someone else, as I don't have the codexes for 2nd, 3rd and 4th with me.

**Sephyr**

I personally dislike Ward's fluff, for reasons already outlined in this thread, but not so much his rules. Draigo is a powerhouse, but his cost reflects his abilities and like Abaddon, he places a logistical burden on his army (though he also helps his army far more than Abaddon.)

My main issues are when he gives new armies abilities better than comparable powers of other armies for a reduced cost (such as Fortitude compared to Extra Armor/Daemonic Possession), or powerful abilities with dodgy, situational counters, like Cleansing Flame.

On an -average- Roll, it will reduce guard, tyranid hordes, kroot and ork boys in CC by half, and MeQ by 1/5th. I doubt there is anything like that in the game, when you figure it works no matter who charges and on both player turns.

What can be done against it? You can avoid CC, but many armies (Nids, Orks, Daemons, even CSM to some extent) Have precious few shooting options and focusing on them would make them chumps to every other army out there while not really offering much advantage against GK. You can load up on anti-psyker defense, but again, less than half the armies have that.

And it's a power that comes 'free' on a very affordable unit (again compared to other MeQ armies), counts towards combat resolution...it's literally all gravy.

If it wounded on a 5+ and didn't count toward resolution, I'd chance that it was balanced. People would still take it, because facing 20 ork boyz instead of 30 before the blades start swinging is still quite an advantage. As it is, I can see why people would get frustrated and whiny.

**pretre**

Sephyr wrote:On an -average- Roll, it will reduce guard, tyranid hordes, kroot and ork boys in CC by half, and MeQ by 1/5th. I doubt there is anything like that in the game, when you figure it works no matter who charges and on both player turns.

Math, how does it work?
Kroot = 4+. So 1/2/
Orks/Gaunts = 4+ then 6+ . So 5/12.
Guard = 4+ then 5+. So... 1/3.
MEQ = 4+ then 3+. So... 1/6.

**azazel the cat**

Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:I have thought about some of the biggest fails Ward has made this far. I also thought about some pros about him.

Fails
Well, his fluff is just terrible with a big T. He writes as if he was on drugs or something here are a few examples.

Ridiculous concepts
-Flying Librarian Dreadnoughts

Because a giant mech suit has never been adapted to fly in any other kind of media. Except for every cartoon that Japan has ever produced, ever. This doesn't seem like such a stretch to me. Even Iron Man can fly via thrusters. What's so wrong with Dreadnoughts doing the same?

Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:-Deepstriking Land Raiders

The US tried to drop tanks from airplanes durring WWII. I don't think it's unreasonable to attempt to drop a huge tank in the same fashion as a drop pod 38,000 years later.

Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:-Necrons allying with Blood Angels against Tyranids (Newer fluff explains this but still...)

I don't mind some of the Newcrons being written as a Machiavellian race, although i did prefer them to be borderline-Lovecraftian horrors from beyond the stars.

Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:-Epic heroes who can solo entire armies. This includes:
*Mephiston, who was miraculously resurrected three days after a building fell on him(Yeah, i know about Grimaldus, but his case was more realistic) He fought bare handed and tore the Ork Warboss's heart out with his hands. Also defended a temple alone for hours unarmed.
*Kaldor Draigo, who basically went alone inside the warp and soloed entire Daemon worlds. According to the lauding and praising of Ward, he could have killed the Dark Gods themselves by dickslapping them.

From a fluff perspective, this really doesn't seem any different than sci-fi versions of Audie Murphy. From a game perspective, Mephiston should cost about 600 points, or else be an Apoc-only model.

Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:*The Sanguinor, the ultimate Mary Sue who always miraculously appears to destroy the enemy when the Blood Angles are about to lose. Wins every single time no matter what it faces.

I don't know much about the BA fluff, but isn't he called The Sanguinor, Exemplar of the Host? If so, you can't consider him a Mary Sue by definition. If the entire army's ideals are the ability to wreck a Xenos' day, then he, as their paragon, ought to be expected to do it in a truly epic fashion. A Mary Sue character would be if Cadet Ricky found a way to outsmart Imotekh. The Sanguinor, as I understand him, is no more a Mary Sue than Achilles or Hector.

Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:-Grey Knight Dreadknights have caused much negative feedback from players due to their rather silly appearance and overpowered rules.

I don't know how much responsibility Matt Ward can take for the sculpt of the model.

Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:-Sisters of Battle always die in his fluff. ALWAYS. Either they are killed by Grey Knights for no reason or by a single Daemon.

This is no more Ward's fault than every other writer in popular media. Strong, tough female characters are never allowed to survive. Just try to think of the last time you say Michelle Rodriguez survive to the end of a movie. Women in sci-fi/fantasy/action media are never allowed to live unless they are ultra-feminine, and are able to use their waif-fu to defeat the enemy. the Sisters of Battle certainly exemplify this. While I do agree that Ward is guilty of this, I don't believe that it is fair to single him out from the rest.

**daveNYC**

There is the valid point that in 4, you could use the traits to get that funky non-Ultramarine flavor. In 5, you're looking to drop 150ish points instead. Traits had problems, but if you wanted to run with apothacaries in every squad and being led by a techmarine, you could. The current C:SM doesn't even give you options for fielding a seriously non-codex force.

**Draigo**

Sephyr wrote:
I personally dislike Ward's fluff, for reasons already outlined in this thread, but not so much his rules. Draigo is a powerhouse, but his cost reflects his abilities and like Abaddon, he places a logistical burden on his army (though he also helps his army far more than Abaddon.)

My main issues are when he gives new armies abilities better than comparable powers of other armies for a reduced cost (such as Fortitude compared to Extra Armor/Daemonic Possession), or powerful abilities with dodgy, situational counters, like Cleansing Flame.

On an -average- Roll, it will reduce guard, tyranid hordes, kroot and ork boys in CC by half, and MeQ by 1/5th. I doubt there is anything like that in the game, when you figure it works no matter who charges and on both player turns.

What can be done against it? You can avoid CC, but many armies (Nids, Orks, Daemons, even CSM to some extent) Have precious few shooting options and focusing on them would make them chumps to every other army out there while not really offering much advantage against GK. You can load up on anti-psyker defense, but again, less than half the armies have that.

And it's a power that comes 'free' on a very affordable unit (again compared to other MeQ armies), counts towards combat resolution...it's literally all gravy.

If it wounded on a 5+ and didn't count toward resolution, I'd chance that it was balanced. People would still take it, because facing 20 ork boyz instead of 30 before the blades start swinging is still quite an advantage. As it is, I can see why people would get frustrated and whiny.

So it doesn't bother you every sw gets counter-attack for free, runes of warding shut down psykers completely, Ig spam tanks for hardly anything, Necrons get back up or are rebuilt, and just that every army has stuff thats pretty amazing? Purifers are very afordable? is that why at most theres like 30 in a 2k or less? Yes very econimical for a 300 plus pt unit thats 5-7 man deep in power armor.. You could buy 2 squads of 10 kabalites or 60 boyz for the cost of purifiers lol I dont know if you have played as gk but I can tell you saving 50 saves on 7 guys isn't exactly my idea of me laughing off their attacks/shots. I see fortitude mentioned a lot too. Do you have the same dislike for living metal?

**Battle Brother Ambrosius**

azazel the cat wrote:
Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:I have thought about some of the biggest fails Ward has made this far. I also thought about some pros about him.

Fails
Well, his fluff is just terrible with a big T. He writes as if he was on drugs or something here are a few examples.

Ridiculous concepts
-Flying Librarian Dreadnoughts

Because a giant mech suit has never been adapted to fly in any other kind of media. Except for every cartoon that Japan has ever produced, ever. This doesn't seem like such a stretch to me. Even Iron Man can fly via thrusters. What's so wrong with Dreadnoughts doing the same?

Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:-Deepstriking Land Raiders

The US tried to drop tanks from airplanes durring WWII. I don't think it's unreasonable to attempt to drop a huge tank in the same fashion as a drop pod 38,000 years later.

Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:-Necrons allying with Blood Angels against Tyranids (Newer fluff explains this but still...)

I don't mind some of the Newcrons being written as a Machiavellian race, although i did prefer them to be borderline-Lovecraftian horrors from beyond the stars.

Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:-Epic heroes who can solo entire armies. This includes:
*Mephiston, who was miraculously resurrected three days after a building fell on him(Yeah, i know about Grimaldus, but his case was more realistic) He fought bare handed and tore the Ork Warboss's heart out with his hands. Also defended a temple alone for hours unarmed.
*Kaldor Draigo, who basically went alone inside the warp and soloed entire Daemon worlds. According to the lauding and praising of Ward, he could have killed the Dark Gods themselves by dickslapping them.

From a fluff perspective, this really doesn't seem any different than sci-fi versions of Audie Murphy. From a game perspective, Mephiston should cost about 600 points, or else be an Apoc-only model.

Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:*The Sanguinor, the ultimate Mary Sue who always miraculously appears to destroy the enemy when the Blood Angles are about to lose. Wins every single time no matter what it faces.

I don't know much about the BA fluff, but isn't he called The Sanguinor, Exemplar of the Host? If so, you can't consider him a Mary Sue by definition. If the entire army's ideals are the ability to wreck a Xenos' day, then he, as their paragon, ought to be expected to do it in a truly epic fashion. A Mary Sue character would be if Cadet Ricky found a way to outsmart Imotekh. The Sanguinor, as I understand him, is no more a Mary Sue than Achilles or Hector.

Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:-Grey Knight Dreadknights have caused much negative feedback from players due to their rather silly appearance and overpowered rules.

I don't know how much responsibility Matt Ward can take for the sculpt of the model.

Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:-Sisters of Battle always die in his fluff. ALWAYS. Either they are killed by Grey Knights for no reason or by a single Daemon.

This is no more Ward's fault than every other writer in popular media. Strong, tough female characters are never allowed to survive. Just try to think of the last time you say Michelle Rodriguez survive to the end of a movie. Women in sci-fi/fantasy/action media are never allowed to live unless they are ultra-feminine, and are able to use their waif-fu to defeat the enemy. the Sisters of Battle certainly exemplify this. While I do agree that Ward is guilty of this, I don't believe that it is fair to single him out from the rest.

Thank you for your polite and mature answer.

I agree with most you have said, and as I have been pretty much bashed to the ground here, I appreciate your kindness.

I wonder if I should just delete the original message...

**pretre**

Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:
I agree with most you have said, and as I have been pretty much bashed to the ground here, I appreciate your kindness.

aww. It's okay; we still like you.

:hug:

**Veteran Sergeant**

azazel the cat wrote:Because a giant mech suit has never been adapted to fly in any other kind of media. Except for every cartoon that Japan has ever produced, ever. This doesn't seem like such a stretch to me. Even Iron Man can fly via thrusters. What's so wrong with Dreadnoughts doing the same?

There's nothing else like it in the Imperium of Man. What they do in other settings conforms to the conventions and precedents set there. No such precedent exists in 40K.

The US tried to drop tanks from airplanes durring WWII. I don't think it's unreasonable to attempt to drop a huge tank in the same fashion as a drop pod 38,000 years later.

Again, no precedent. And it's somewhat sketchy in terms of game balance.

Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:-Sisters of Battle always die in his fluff. ALWAYS. Either they are killed by Grey Knights for no reason or by a single Daemon.

This is no more Ward's fault than every other writer in popular media. Strong, tough female characters are never allowed to survive.

Um. Ellen Ripley in the Alien films. Yes, she dies in the 3rd one, but it's a self sacrifice (and if you watch the Assembly Cut of the film and not the shoddy theatrical cut, it actually makes sense). In the second film, she's very strong and doesn't use waif-fu. Heck, female protagonists abound in modern media. Milla Jovovich from Resident Evil, Lara Croft, etc. It's to the point where the female protagonist is now overused, cliche and unbelievable most of the time.

I don't know why the Sisters get slaughtered in 40K fluff. Probably because it's a bit more evocative than just killing another hundred thousand Guardsmen. Space Marines and Imperial Guardsmen have died in droves throughout time and nobody ever says "Why's 40K pick on the Imperial Guard?". I think people just notice the Sisters more because they're girls and they had been more or less absent from the fluff until more recently. And their slow evolution from inexplicably incorruptible saints to regular humans heavily brainwashed by the Ecclesiarchy has changed the way they are depicted. Plus, hey, they're just normal humans in the end. They're a half step up from a Guardsman, just more expensive to deploy.

**daveNYC**

azazel the cat wrote:
Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:-Sisters of Battle always die in his fluff. ALWAYS. Either they are killed by Grey Knights for no reason or by a single Daemon.

This is no more Ward's fault than every other writer in popular media. Strong, tough female characters are never allowed to survive. Just try to think of the last time you say Michelle Rodriguez survive to the end of a movie. Women in sci-fi/fantasy/action media are never allowed to live unless they are ultra-feminine, and are able to use their waif-fu to defeat the enemy. the Sisters of Battle certainly exemplify this. While I do agree that Ward is guilty of this, I don't believe that it is fair to single him out from the rest.

Ripley and her pulse rifle would like to have a chat with you. But then James Cameron has always been a bit of an outlier when it comes to sticking strong women in his films.

**pretre**

Veteran Sergeant wrote:
azazel the cat wrote:Because a giant mech suit has never been adapted to fly in any other kind of media. Except for every cartoon that Japan has ever produced, ever. This doesn't seem like such a stretch to me. Even Iron Man can fly via thrusters. What's so wrong with Dreadnoughts doing the same?
There's nothing else like it in the Imperium of Man. What they do in other settings conforms to the conventions and precedents set there. No such precedent exists in 40K.

I believe Knights Titans can move very fast and jump long distances (I may be misremembering Mechanicum) making them effectively jump infantry.

The US tried to drop tanks from airplanes durring WWII. I don't think it's unreasonable to attempt to drop a huge tank in the same fashion as a drop pod 38,000 years later.
Again, no precedent. And it's somewhat sketchy in terms of game balance.

Thunderhawks have always done low altitude insertions, including with vehicles.

**Veteran Sergeant**

A Land Raider is a pretty huge vehicle. I acknowledge they obviously have to get to the planet somehow, but the idea that they can be dropped effectively and safely in the scope of a single 40K turn seems a bit dubious.

And Titans aren't on the same scale as a dreadnought. What they have, and have not been able to miniaturize in the universe is what the precedent is. They have jump packs for Marines, and they are gigantic. Though it's important to note that the Blood Angels dreadnought flies due to a psychic power, not mechanicals. However, there's no precedent for that either. It just seems a little silly.

**daveNYC**

pretre wrote:
Veteran Sergeant wrote:
azazel the cat wrote:Because a giant mech suit has never been adapted to fly in any other kind of media. Except for every cartoon that Japan has ever produced, ever. This doesn't seem like such a stretch to me. Even Iron Man can fly via thrusters. What's so wrong with Dreadnoughts doing the same?
There's nothing else like it in the Imperium of Man. What they do in other settings conforms to the conventions and precedents set there. No such precedent exists in 40K.

I believe Knights Titans can move very fast and jump long distances (I may be misremembering Mechanicum) making them effectively jump infantry.

Don't remember them jumping. They were relatively fast and nimble though. Dodging incoming fire was an option for them. Flying dreads don't really fit with the overall style of Imperial hardware, which is big and slow (and heavy on armor and firepower). Flying mecha would fit more with the DE or regular Eldar.

**pretre**

Veteran Sergeant wrote:A Land Raider is a pretty huge vehicle. I acknowledge they obviously have to get to the planet somehow, but the idea that they can be dropped effectively and safely in the scope of a single 40K turn seems a bit dubious.

Deep Strike is an abstraction. Drop pods do not drop effectively and safely in the scope of one turn. That's why you roll for reserves.

And Titans aren't on the same scale as a dreadnought. What they have, and have not been able to miniaturize in the universe is what the precedent is. They have jump packs for Marines, and they are gigantic. Though it's important to note that the Blood Angels dreadnought flies due to a psychic power, not mechanicals. However, there's no precedent for that either. It just seems a little silly.

Knights are very different than titans. Also, it is a psychic power. Psychic powers do crazy things.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

daveNYC wrote: Flying dreads don't really fit with the overall style of Imperial hardware, which is big and slow (and heavy on armor and firepower).

Valks, vendettas, sentinels are all pretty speedy and not heavy on armor. Not to mention Arvus Lighters, gun cutters, etc.

But again, it is a psychic power and not technology.

**Draigo**

As far as flying dreads not fitting Imperial hardware.. Why exactly is an armies unique thing supposed to be for everyone? I don't see ultramarines with the sanguinary guards jump packs or Tigerious with a nfw. I mean id love for my inquisitor to have joww or murderous hurricane.

**Big Mek Wurrzog**

Experiment 626 wrote:Eldar ironically have it pretty good against the GK mess... Their runes of warding can pretty much negate every single psychic power. Doom & fortune still work well enough and the warlock powers are unblockable throug hany means. (other than killing the warlock!)

No, the books that got utterly fethed by GK's are;
- Daemons. Litterly no point in playing the game unless you're running a fateweaver build. Even then, outside of tournaments the GK players can very easily decide to quake-shunt the entire table and auto-win the game...
All the big problems daemons suffer from are simply exploited by the new GK's as they have the game's best mech, best anti-horde, best wound allocation shinanigans AND all their special anti-daemon rules to top things off!

- Tyranids. On par with daemons ironically... Pointy-death-sticks everywhere means the multi-wound beasties are even more crap, grenades that specifically counter the 'nids main strength (stupid psychos!) army-wide S5 shooting, easy to spam rending, clensing flame BS.

- Orks. Don't have it as bad as the other two, but clensing flame on it's own can win the game for the shiny marines, especialy against foot hordes! Psyfleman dreads can also take-out whole squads of killa kans in a single phase on a good day.

Three freaking armies that are litterly b-slapped by a single codex! Okay, it's not quite as bad as the fantasy daemons feth-up, but still, pretty sad when you're looking at your collection of hundreds of dollars knowing you can't take them to tournament anymore because the scene is flooded by 'shiny special marines'

I've never had an issue with Grey Knights, I fight them all the time. I always expect a good fight when i face GK because i know they are going to be the best quality points can buy in 40k. I expect nothing less when I face GK and infact have one multiple times against the flamer horde. I don't think you should complain about an entire army... maybe a prospect like "I wish my army had force weapons" Hey my orks with they had melta guns or Monsterous creatures like squigs but we don't.

As far as Matt Ward, i don't know enough about the army fluff of grey knights to know or care really what he did but i did hear some disturbing rumors in the necron codex, like ork slaves, Letters which the Emperor himself wrote ect ect ect. So it's made me leery yeah.