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Oaka wrote:

Draigo wrote:

Oaka wrote:I guess I just don't like the fact that an entire civilization arises that is as populated as Humanity, but they all have stats equivalent to a Space Marine?

Huh? Your mad they are as strong as the Imperium's super soldiers? really?

The regular Necrontyr citizen, who took your fast food order and got your sand burger wrong even though you asked for no pickles three times? Yeah, I'm mad.

But they aren't fast food order anymore they were put into machine bodies and remade. Their real army is now immortals. Plus toughness guns etc have nothing to do with how smart they used to be. lol Theyre all t 100s now.

pretre wrote:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:He has little to no regard for established fluff (not necessarily a bad thing, unless it's a fundamental alteration of the setting history as a whole) ,

You know Damnos and the 5th Ed Rulebook both started the path to this codex before Ward got to it, right? This whole change was well telegraphed.

I'm not sure what you're referring to here. The Void Dragon not being the Omnissiah? That didn't make sense in the timeline anyways.

no grasp of continuity ("billlions of years ago, the Necrons went to sleep for sixty million years, and so are waking up now!" ),

Umm. Citation needed. I see a lot of 'Aeons ago' but no Billions / millions errors. Oh I get it, you're going by the strict meaning of Aeon, apparently used in Astronomy. I think he's using it in the literary sense.

1. an immeasurably long period of time; age
2. (Astronomy) a period of one thousand million years

In the intro paragraph on page six it sets the history at "billions of years before Man", and in the second paragraph of "THE GREAT SLEEP" on page seven "The Silent King's final command to his people was that they must sleep for sixty million years...".

reason ("Necron Lords act solely out of a desire for increased personal power, so their motives are impossible to figure out!" ), or scale (the number of necrons and tombworlds implied to exist radically shifting throughout the codex), and frequently uses words incorrectly or in extremely awkward ways.

Not sure what you're getting at here. Examples?

In these circumstances, folks are always making claims but rarely produce textual proof. It makes it awkward to discuss.

Any time a number is given for something related to Necrons, it's a vague statement of effectively random size. The awkward phrasing and apparent inept use of a thesaurus that no doubt helped it along is too subtle a thing to really draw out solid examples, being an overall characteristic. Like I said, it's like something an unusually literate (literacy in this case referring to a basic grasp of grammar and spelling) child would write. It reminds me of the page or two of one of Goto's books I read once, both stylistically and in the fact that it's physically painful to read. I'm not even sure how that's possible, only that's it's truly an accomplishment in terrible writing.

A) Necrons were cooler as implacable horde of mindless automatons bent on removing all life from the cosmos for their ancient stargods.
B) Every C:SM is getting more and more of a ultramarines propaganda book. There is nary a mention of the Salamanders Imperial Fists, Crimson Fists, Whitescars, ect. I realize that the Ultramarines are the go to guys, but can we expand out a little? There is no reason why every thing in the darn book has to be smurfs.
C) The Current UM have no weakness, vice, or inhibiting factor of any sort. These are the things that make factions relatable. I realize I said I liked that I liked the necrons as robots, that is significantly different, they never were relatable, they were a monstrous faction, as opposed to the merely horrible imperium.
D) There is a limit to how much OTT even 40k can be without becoming narm, GK grossly exeeds this limit. They used to balance out their daemon hate by giving daemons some cool extra abilities, now they just donkey stomp the already pathetic daemons. Daemons vs. GK should be an epic battle, instead they just keep Daemons from ever hitting play, and when they do, they just casual wipe them off the table like a shiny psychic broom. And even against non-daemons they ride in their unshakable boxes, or deep strike everything.
E) They rework 2 codexes, Rip out everything but the sisters out of WH, give the SoB a codex so aweful they couldn't justify printing it on it's own. They put all the inquisition into one book and then minimize it. They disregard that 2/3s of the Inquisition doesn't deal at all with the GK nor daemons, they take away the Inquisitorial stormtroopers and force people who want to run a pure inquisition force to play 1 specific character that is DH, who are already the ones most likely to call on the GK, there is no darn way to make a Ordo Hereticus army, and there never has been one for Ordo Xenos, they ignore the inquistions ties to the echlesiarchy and the fact that the Ordo Xenos has their own chamber militant in the Deathwatch, who are the only chamber militant who were actually founded specifically as such.

Oaka wrote:But it detracts from a sense of numbers in the galaxy. Each Space Marine chapter has 1000 bodies. Billions upon Billions of Necrons doesn't give much hope to humanity. Hence, Matt Ward broke the fluff.

Space Marines number less that one million in all, making them the single smallest and least militarily relevant faction in the entire fluff save for the Traitor Marines. Even the Tau have a stronger military, numbering in the hundreds of millions, while each Craftworld boasts a trillion or so residents, Commoragh has an estimated volume equal to a two kilometer disk with a radius of Pluto's average orbit* and would have around ten trillion residents if its population density was so much as one percent of Alaska's, and the Guard numbers in the tens of trillions of infantry, not to mention the billions upon billions of tanks. To say nothing of the Adeptus Mechanicus, which fields the equivalent of non-power armored Space Marines in the tens of thousands in any given theater, alongside war engines that pack more firepower than an entire chapter, or the Imperial Navy, which boasts millions of warships that pack enough firepower to level continents with sustained bombardment, and countless smaller vessels. Billions of Necrons makes them much less of a threat than they previously seemed, if anything.

*Hilarious extrapolation of the "compares to the largest of Imperial hives as a mountain does to a mound of termites" phrase, done by comparing a termite mound to mount everest, then multiplying a rough figure for the volume of the hive on Terra by the result.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:

Oaka wrote:But it detracts from a sense of numbers in the galaxy. Each Space Marine chapter has 1000 bodies. Billions upon Billions of Necrons doesn't give much hope to humanity. Hence, Matt Ward broke the fluff.

Space Marines number less that one million in all, making them the single smallest and least militarily relevant faction in the entire fluff save for the Traitor Marines. Even the Tau have a stronger military, numbering in the hundreds of millions, while each Craftworld boasts a trillion or so residents, Commoragh has an estimated volume equal to a two kilometer disk with a radius of Pluto's average orbit* and would have around ten trillion residents if its population density was so much as one percent of Alaska's, and the Guard numbers in the tens of trillions of infantry, not to mention the billions upon billions of tanks. To say nothing of the Adeptus Mechanicus, which fields the equivalent of non-power armored Space Marines in the tens of thousands in any given theater, alongside war engines that pack more firepower than an entire chapter, or the Imperial Navy, which boasts millions of warships that pack enough firepower to level continents with sustained bombardment, and countless smaller vessels. Billions of Necrons makes them much less of a threat than they previously seemed, if anything.

*Hilarious extrapolation of the "compares to the largest of Imperial hives as a mountain does to a mound of termites" phrase, done by comparing a termite mound to mount everest, then multiplying a rough figure for the volume of the hive on Terra by the result.

I agree in the scope of things the space marines dont matter. Honestly i doubt that the space marines contribute more then .01% of the iom fighting forces. There is a reason its the Imperium of MAN, because man does the fighting to sustain it.

As far as the daemons go I have always ben suprised at the lack luster showing considering you read the books killing a daemon prince is almost so grand an event even 20 gk crumble. Just their prescence alone made ig guys go crazy and they just tore marines etc apart. As far as necrons.. Im just weirded out by the art collector mostly..

People hate Matt Ward because he has written a codex with some odd fluff writing and the Blood Angels actually required a couple of new units and some imagination behind its builds. Instead, most people find it easier to fixate on the fluff issues and build crappy, cheesy spam army lists for the exact same reason: it's easy.

Ignore the people who fixate on this guy. While they are wasting time writing their own fandexes to make their army in the image they want it in, you can actually sit down and enjoy an evening of fun with your friends...

I myself am not a fan of Matt Ward and I hope that he does not write the Eldar's book when it comes out. I have been playing 40k since it was Rogue Trader back in the late '80's. I do care about the fluff and making super armies. When 40k came out everything was pretty equal. I would just like to see all armies have the same chance at winning. I agree that each race or army may have its strengths and weaknesses, but overall I would like to see them all a little more equal. I do not think Matt Ward made the new Necrons unbeatable, I do not like that he changed the fluff so much. I do think that he made the Grey Knights a super army, not much in there is crap, except for the Jakero's. Which I am glad to see an actual model for something that has been in the fluff since Rogue Trader. I do think the unit is pretty worthless. I think he also took the Gk more away from being demon hunters and more xenos or psychic killers. I know this is my opinion, but I think we are all entitled to our opinions. I for one do not appreciate Matt Ward.

daveNYC wrote:

pretre wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote: everyone list tailors to some extent at the local store by having multiple lists at hand!)

Seriously? I have not experienced that before. That's a pretty lame local store if everyone tailors.

I have multiple lists for different point levels and trying out different combos, but that's about it and they are all take all comers.

Your problem would probably be the same no matter what army you played if people are going to tailor. :(

I'm assuming he meant that everyone has 'tweaked' lists on hand, as opposed to an 'all-comers' or a pile of specificly designed anti-X lists. So if you're DE, you might have a basic list, but have a variant that removes Scourges with Haywire when going up against Tyranids. And tweaking a GK list to stomp and romp on daemons would be pretty easy.

What's wrong with tweaked lists? I mean, perish the thought of a strategy and tactics game where you use real strategies and tactics...

I mean, the weaponry you'd use against Marines is going to be different than that which you use against a horde of Tyranids.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

daveNYC wrote:

pretre wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote: everyone list tailors to some extent at the local store by having multiple lists at hand!)

Seriously? I have not experienced that before. That's a pretty lame local store if everyone tailors.

I have multiple lists for different point levels and trying out different combos, but that's about it and they are all take all comers.

Your problem would probably be the same no matter what army you played if people are going to tailor. :(

I'm assuming he meant that everyone has 'tweaked' lists on hand, as opposed to an 'all-comers' or a pile of specificly designed anti-X lists. So if you're DE, you might have a basic list, but have a variant that removes Scourges with Haywire when going up against Tyranids. And tweaking a GK list to stomp and romp on daemons would be pretty easy.

What's wrong with tweaked lists? I mean, perish the thought of a strategy and tactics game where you use real strategies and tactics...

I mean, the weaponry you'd use against Marines is going to be different than that which you use against a horde of Tyranids.

This...

I only have 1 local store that runs 40k gaming. Everyone over 14 brings lists that basically go like;
a) your average net-list which requires little to no thought process to use (this being dubed the 'all comers' list)
b) anti-mech list
c) anti-horde list
d) anti-meq list

The GK players also keep an 'anti-daemon special' to hand as well.

Most of the newer books also make it pretty damn easy to swap around a unit or two as well since the pts all tend to revolve around 10's or 5's.



Hence why I've simply started ignoring the idiots and instead help mentor the younger kids and teach them about respect for yourself AND your opponent as well when gaming!
Pulling out a tailored list or spam list teaches you nothing about tactical skill, and it's no fun for opponents because the game gets boring very fast when you're dealing with 6x 'unit Y' + 2 of the same HQ's...

Ward books overall I find tend to favour spamy builds that devolve the game down into a point-and-click exercise, because there's always a blaitently obvious 'no-brainer' build that jumps off the page and slaps you repeatidly in the face screaming, "I'Z IS DUH MOST AWSUME!!1!!!!11!" (mech purifyers anyone?!)
Sure it exists in all books, but the Ward versions are still typically a wee bit better than the rest...

Armless Failure wrote:B) Every C:SM is getting more and more of a ultramarines propaganda book. There is nary a mention of the Salamanders Imperial Fists, Crimson Fists, Whitescars, ect. I realize that the Ultramarines are the go to guys, but can we expand out a little? There is no reason why every thing in the darn book has to be smurfs.
C) The Current UM have no weakness, vice, or inhibiting factor of any sort

This is nerd rage parroting. There are still plenty of accounts of Ultramarines defeats in various books. If you're complaining that they have no faults like a dark past (Dark Angels), crazy rage (Blood Angels), screwed up gene seed and a lack of discipline(Space Wolves), etc, explain what faults the Salamanders (even explained to be extra nice and down to earth), or Raven Guard, or White Scars have... I mean, what kind of flaws do you want the Ultramarines to have? They are Space Marines. Yeah, they've won a lot of battles. But that's because they are the "greatest of all Space Marine Chapters" (1995, Rick Priestley, creator of 40K). For years the raging neck beards clamored about how GW never explained why the Ultramarines were the greatest, and when they did, complained that the Ultramarines were the greatest.



Talk about unfocused nerd-rage, lol. Just be honest about it. In the early 1990s, Games Workshop had 12-15 Chapters to choose from. They chose a Big Four. Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, and the Ultramarines. They could have chosen any of them, but they chose those four. They were all given a role to play in the fluff, and their own army style. Blood Angels were angry close combatty Space Marines. Dark Angels were brooding Emo-rines with bathrobes and extra fast land speeders. The Space Wolves were the rebellious, furry guys that looked like Space Vikings. And the Ultramarines were chosen to be the representative Chapter for all "standard' Space Marines. They could have chosen any of the existing "undefined" Chapters (Crimson Fists, Imperial Fists, Salamanders, etc) but they didn't. They chose the Ultramarines, and the Ultramarines became the "paragon" and "flagship" chapter for Games Workshop. And why? Because the Ultramarines are easy to explain. People know what Marines are, and then they just have to imagine a Marine 40,000 years in the future and the Ultramarines look like that. No need to explain bathrobes, or vampires, or ponytails, all things that seem kind of silly to someone who isn't indoctrinated into the game universe already.

Codex: Space Marines has always been Codex: Ultramarines. In 2nd Edition, that was actually its name, but GW decided that confused novice players who couldn't figure out what the "basic" Space Marine codex was. Changing its name to Codex: Space Marine was a product marketing decision, not a change in philosophy. The Ultramarines are still the focus in both the 3E and 4E C:SMs. The iconography, bulk of special characters, painting examples... Ultramarines. The content of the 5th Edition Codex is little different than the previous ones. Pick up your C:SM4E and tell me what icon is on the shoulder pad of every Marine in the army list. Look at your 3E codex and check out where it tells you "How to paint an Ultramarine" and which Chapter's full force listing is on the last few pages.

Your argument is like complaining that Codex: Blood Angels doesn't have enough units, fluff, or special characters for the Blood Drinkers (who were one of the original 12 Rogue Trader chapters, no less) or Angels Encarmine.

pretre wrote:

azazel the cat wrote:My dislike for Ward is due to the fact that he is an exceptionally sloppy writer when it comes to rules. Let's look at the Newcron codex:
.

Oh, good call, because no other codex (including the last Cron one) has ever had an extensive number of FAQ questions and answers because their book was unclear.

Yeah, most of those FAQs were due to the old Necron codex having been created with 3rd Ed. rules, and needing to be updated through the years. I doubt that massive FAQ was needed on day one. The rest was due to WBB.

And to whoever hates "anti-MEQ" lists: MEQ makes up about 75% of the game. I'd say an anti-MEQ list is a TAC list.

azazel the cat wrote:My dislike for Ward is due to the fact that he is an exceptionally sloppy writer when it comes to rules. Let's look at the Newcron codex:
.

That one is an easy one to measure looking at the errata & FAQ (excluding 4th Edition or older books, as their errata tends to be longer to bring it in-line with 5th)

Cruddace 5th:
Imperial Guard - 8 points of errata, slightly under 2 pages FAQ.
Tyrandis - 5 points of errata, 3 pages FAQ
Cruddace 5th average: 6,5 points of errata and about 2 pages of FAQ per Codex

Mat Ward 5th:
Space Marines - 11 points of errata, 2 pages FAQ
Blood Angels´- 6 points of errata, 2 pages FAQ
Grey Knights - 4 points of errata, 4 pages FAQ (more like 3 1/2 but hey)
Necrons - tbd.
Mat Ward 5th average: 7 points of errata and 2,6 pages of FAQ per Codex

Phil Kelly 5th:
Space Wolves - 9 points of errata, 5 pages of FAQ.
Dark Eldar - 11 points of erratta, 2 pages of FAQ.
Phil Kelly 5th average: 10 points of errata and 3,5 pages of FAQ per Codex

So regarding these writer's quality of avoiding "sloppy writing" for rules, the ranking would be:
1. Cruddace
2. Mat Ward
3. Phil Kelly

Codex Dark Eldar and Space Marines share the red light for the most errata needed with 11 each. The least errata was needed for Ward's Codex Grey Knights.

Codex Space Wolves is the worst to date as far as needing the most FAQ to clarify things. The least FAQ was needed for Cruddace's Codex Imperial Guard.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:I'm not sure what you're referring to here. The Void Dragon not being the Omnissiah? That didn't make sense in the timeline anyways.

No, the intelligent, scheming necron lord stuff. Read Fall of Damnos.

In the intro paragraph on page six it sets the history at "billions of years before Man", and in the second paragraph of "THE GREAT SLEEP" on page seven "The Silent King's final command to his people was that they must sleep for sixty million years...".

Right, that's when Necron civilization started, billions of years ago. Then the Silent King put them to sleep Sixty Million years ago. Meaning they ruled the universe for quite a long time before they slept.

Any time a number is given for something related to Necrons, it's a vague statement of effectively random size. The awkward phrasing and apparent inept use of a thesaurus that no doubt helped it along is too subtle a thing to really draw out solid examples, being an overall characteristic. Like I said, it's like something an unusually literate (literacy in this case referring to a basic grasp of grammar and spelling) child would write. It reminds me of the page or two of one of Goto's books I read once, both stylistically and in the fact that it's physically painful to read. I'm not even sure how that's possible, only that's it's truly an accomplishment in terrible writing.

Example?

1)Anti-MEQ is TAC, let's be honest. Non-MEQs are half the field on the worst day for MEQs.

2)Ultramarines may be the "default" marines, but there is no reason why some variance could not appear in the codex as far as chapters represented. Sure leave BA, SW, BT, DA, and their successors out of it, they have their own books, but those chapters that aren't so lucky as to have their own books deserve a little more, especially the other first founding chapters. BT isn't even a FF chapter and they have a seperate book, meaning they have it better than their progenitors (Imperial Fists). Codecies are getting longer, their is enough room to pull focus, and that also goes for the codex having variant marines. Some extra fluff and maybe a character for the lamenters would be awesome, maybe dive into the DA's Successor's actions and how they are connected to their pregenitor chapter. Have a surviving group of wolf brothers show up, having somewhat stabilized their geneseed. The creators have created the ability to make your marines your own, show us how some other chapters work, I doubt that even those that strictly following the Codex Astartes are all UM carbon copies.

3)The codex fluff hasn't ever been the best, but given that it is the most distributed, IT NEEDS TO BE!

4)Andy Chamber > any one currently writing codecies

5)Gav Thorpe on a good day > any one of the current codex authors on their best days.

6)GW's play testing is criminally atrocious. There could be a real competitive scene for the game if GW would get their act together.

pretre wrote:

Oaka wrote:The regular Necrontyr citizen, who took your fast food order and got your sand burger wrong even though you asked for no pickles three times? Yeah, I'm mad.

Who was put into a robot body by a star god? Yeah...

Exactly this. Necrons are to Necrontyr as the Space Marines are to Humanity.

I have thought about some of the biggest fails Ward has made this far. I also thought about some pros about him.

Fails
Well, his fluff is just terrible with a big T. He writes as if he was on drugs or something here are a few examples.

Ridiculous concepts
-Flying Librarian Dreadnoughts
-Deepstriking Land Raiders
-Necrons allying with Blood Angels against Tyranids (Newer fluff explains this but still...)
-Epic heroes who can solo entire armies. This includes:
*Mephiston, who was miraculously resurrected three days after a building fell on him(Yeah, i know about Grimaldus, but his case was more realistic) He fought bare handed and tore the Ork Warboss's heart out with his hands. Also defended a temple alone for hours unarmed.
*Kaldor Draigo, who basically went alone inside the warp and soloed entire Daemon worlds. According to the lauding and praising of Ward, he could have killed the Dark Gods themselves by dickslapping them.
*The Sanguinor, the ultimate Mary Sue who always miraculously appears to destroy the enemy when the Blood Angles are about to lose. Wins every single time no matter what it faces.
-Praising the Ultramarines to the point where Tigurus is as powerful if not even more powerful as the Emperor himself, Marneus Calgar can outsmart even Tzeench and where all other Space Marine Chapters with the exception of Raven Guard, Black Templars and Space Wolves think that the Ultramarines are the best of the best and revere them to the point of saccharine.
-Grey Knight Dreadknights have caused much negative feedback from players due to their rather silly appearance and overpowered rules.
-Sisters of Battle always die in his fluff. ALWAYS. Either they are killed by Grey Knights for no reason or by a single Daemon.

Failures with rules
-In Warhammer Fantasy Battle the rulebook for 6th edition Chaos Daemons was so broken that it almost destroyed the game. No player could hope to win them and their fluff was also altered severely.
-Grey Knights are so over powered that new players will find it extremely hard if not impossible to defeat them. They are a big challenge even to more experienced players, with their mass teleporting armies, +2 armors, Psycannon spam and special character. Armies using a lot of psykers or Daemons like the Eldar or Chaos Daemons will be in serious trouble with this army. Also destroyed their fluff.

Failures with fluff
-Over ten years of Grey Kinght fluff was thrown in the garbage bin as Ward got to work on them. He made it so they could turn to chaos, he made Kaldor Draigo a 10 foot-tall Jesus and made them kill innocent Sisters of Battle.
-Codex: Space Marines turned out to be a Codex: Ultramarines as Ward wrote it almost entirely from their perspective. According to him, all other marine chapters worship Roboute Guilliman as their "Spiritual Liege" and revere the Ultramarines more than anything else, seeking to be like them. He thinks that Ultramarines are perfect in every way. Basically it is like bad fanfic. He made the non-codex chapters like the Raven Guard and Space Wolves look bad and deranged and went to racist mode with the Salamanders. He insists that their skin is dark because of a genetic flaw instead of an intentional adaption in order to survive on the surface of Nocturne. He can't stand any other armies besides his own. All other SM books he writes are praising the Ultramarines even more.
-He almost retconned the Sisters of Battle out of the fluff in the main rulebook. He also had an effect on the huge orientation of armored units we have today.

Pros
-Lotr SBG was considered a good rulebook. It was one of his first works.
-Has more skill with writing rules than with writing fluff. For example, in C:BA he has created almost all units to be at least usable, unlike Robin Cruddace with his LRBT variants, for example.

Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:I have thought about some of the biggest fails Ward has made this far. I also thought about some pros about him.

So much fail, I don't even know where to start.

Oh well. Great compilation, BBA!

pretre wrote:

Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:I have thought about some of the biggest fails Ward has made this far. I also thought about some pros about him.

So much fail, I don't even know where to start.

Oh well. Great compilation, BBA!

If you are trying to insult me at least point out the parts where you disagree with me. Otherwise move on.

Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:

pretre wrote:So much fail, I don't even know where to start.

If you are trying to insult me at least point out the parts where you disagree with me. Otherwise move on.

I'll go ahead and skip it. Your 'points' have been rebutted a thousand times on these boards by actual textual quotes. It just isn't worth it.

Theoden wrote:What can men do against such reckless hate?

The only thing I will agree with, is 7th Edition Chaos Daemons, and the Draigo fluff.

Everything else in that list, just silly.

Sasori wrote:The only thing I will agree with, is 7th Edition Chaos Daemons, and the Draigo fluff.

Everything else in that list, just silly.

How is the Ultramarine fanboyism or changing the fluff entirely "just silly"?

Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:

Sasori wrote:The only thing I will agree with, is 7th Edition Chaos Daemons, and the Draigo fluff.

Everything else in that list, just silly.

How is the Ultramarine fanboyism or changing the fluff entirely "just silly"?

Because some of us Like the new fluff? I love the new Necron fluff. For me, it's much better.

And because, you know, it is factually incorrect.

"Reginald get the silver spoons.. that metal man is here again and wants to make a deal." lol Whenever the new fluff is said I can't but help laugh at the collector guy. I think hes the one who can claim objectives cause hes that darn greedy. Otherwise I'm pretty indifferent to the fluff. lol

Sasori wrote:

Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:

Sasori wrote:The only thing I will agree with, is 7th Edition Chaos Daemons, and the Draigo fluff.

Everything else in that list, just silly.

How is the Ultramarine fanboyism or changing the fluff entirely "just silly"?

Because some of us Like the new fluff? I love the new Necron fluff. For me, it's much better.

I guess these things are entirely based on opinion. I know three hardcore Necron players who hate the new fluff, since the race has lost a portion of it's grimdark spirit with the addition of sentient characters. I for one, do not like it entirely either.

Goto Page 178 of the main rulebook and read about the necrons. At the start of 5th edition, they had already changed to the new fluff. Note not a single reference to C'Tan in the description of the race over 4 pages.

Also, see Fall of Damnos.

Matt Ward didn't change the Necron fluff. The main rulebook did.

pretre wrote:And because, you know, it is factually incorrect.

I checked my writing and could not figure out how it is wrong. I have all of the Codices which I mentioned, including those of Necrons, Space Marines, Blood Angels and Grey Knights. WHFB Army book for CD I do not have, but I know how terrible it was since I have friends playing that game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pretre wrote:Goto Page 178 of the main rulebook and read about the necrons. At the start of 5th edition, they had already changed to the new fluff. Note not a single reference to C'Tan in the description of the race over 4 pages.

Also, see Fall of Damnos.

Matt Ward didn't change the Necron fluff. The main rulebook did.

I checked, and you are right. I will correct my list. However, he was also involved writing the main rulebook. But since it is too vague evidence whether he changed their fluff or not, it is better left aside.

So, my point above about Necrons. Ward did not change their fluff.

Also, see the original Index Astartes for GK saying that no GK had fallen to chaos 'yet', indicating they could. That was years ago. Ward did not change their fluff.

And the whole 'almost retconned sob out of the book'. Where did you get that? SOB got more information in the Main rulebook than GK.

When you say clearly demonstrably false things, it is hard to take your arguments seriously.

pretre wrote:So, my point above about Necrons. Ward did not change their fluff.

Also, see the original Index Astartes for GK saying that no GK had fallen to chaos 'yet', indicating they could. That was years ago. Ward did not change their fluff.

And the whole 'almost retconned sob out of the book'. Where did you get that? SOB got more information in the Main rulebook than GK.

When you say clearly demonstrably false things, it is hard to take your arguments seriously.

I see. However it can also depend on how you decipher the word "yet". I always understood it as a clear sign they could never fall to Chaos, since they had fought for millenia already. I always thought it as a "The world can end" type of thing.