Why Hate Matt Ward?

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**daveNYC**

Dark Scipio wrote:
Armless Failure wrote:
Zweischneid wrote:Well. I spent a small fortune on Space Marines, Blood Angels and now Necrons (an army that never before interested me but has now grabbed my full attention). I will also purchase a few Dreadknights, if only for Apoc problably.

After many years of abscence and indifference to the hobby due to the poor and uninspired writers that dominated 3rd and 4th Edition, Ward's outstanding, innovative and bold work has truly rekindled my fire for 40K. And not only mine, but at the very least those of my entire old "gaming group" that hadn't touched a mini by and large since Necromunda was all the rage.

Thank you Mr. Ward for bringing imagination, fun and life back to 40K.

Thank you GW for the fantastic revival you've made possible by brining Mr. Ward on board.

As long as Ward remains a truly integral part of the 40K line, be assured that you will continue to receive many hundreds of euro from me, month after month, year after year, and hereby pledge to not touch or buy the minis of any other game company.

Yours, Z.

[edit]
P.S.

Keep Kelly away doing piraty-things. It's the best place for him. It really is.

Obvious Troll is Obvious

Obvious Troll is Obvious, yourself.

Self reflection: 0 ?

Naw, his 15:37:58 post was waaaay too over the top. This bit...

As long as Ward remains a truly integral part of the 40K line, be assured that you will continue to receive many hundreds of euro from me, month after month, year after year, and hereby pledge to not touch or buy the minis of any other game company.

...was really the killer. Though I must say that soaking Mr. Ward in salt water wouldn't be a bad idea, even if it was the result of a typo.

Plus, anytime some buys a dreadknight model, God kills a puppy. Really.

**ObliviousBlueCaboose**

I recently read csw and i can say, people who complian that people pick on ward and not kelly, need to reread the fluff. There is no stealing thunderhawks to pick up chicks. They do it to race them. And there was one off hand line aboiut picking up chicks, and it was a set up for a horror story.

There is no hypocraicy, (we hate deamons but its cool to use deamon blades and fight longside deamon hosts)
There is no name carving into deamon hearts, or one man killing a deamon, where in the past it took over 100 gks to kill a weaker deamon.

EDIT: This is in reference to the fluff, when it comes to rules they both made some feth uped rules.

**Dark Scipio**

Luke_Prowler wrote:Zweischneid, I'm going to tell you this in the nicest way I can, because honestly the way I want to say it would be be ungentlemanly and get me banned from the site.

For as long as I have been reading this topic you have spent it venting rage like a tantruming child, argueing with complaints about vague concepts with few examples and ad hominem attacks. People have given plenty of examples and counter arguments against your position and you continue to ignore them to regurgitate the same points by the next page. You have called everyone who has disagreed with you a fanboy and yet you sound much more like a fanboy than anyone else here. I politely ask that, since you refuse to take this as an actual debate rather than your personal Kelly-hate vent, that you simply stop posting here, both for your own sake and for everyone else on topic.

Don't bother responding to this. I have ignored you weeks ago and even if I haven't I doubt it would be anything dignified.

For me Zweischneid sounded like the voice of reason here.

Despite most people that give ,,plenty of examples" that were none, but only one of many interpretations, he was basing his opinion on facts and not assumptions.

To ask somebody to stop posting, because you dont like his opinion fits the low standard of your other posts.

**Draigo**

It's safe to say this "that no one will agree and they each have who they like and dislie." So really this will be a flame war regardless. There is no universal reason or "hard fact" that everyone can get behind. This thread was kinda doomed from the start being called why we hate ward. All hate threads cause problems. Just because you dislike something doesnt mean its really worth debating in an open forum. There are armies I dislike but really its to each their own as long as you are in the hobby. Saying you hate something and continuing to play means you are doing it to yourself. No one is forcing anyone into this. It's like repeatidly slamming your hand in the door and being mad at the door. If you honetly waste enough time hating something in a game it might be time you found a new hobby.

**Experiment 626**

timetowaste85 wrote:
Zweischneid wrote:
Vaktathi wrote:
There's a reason Ward gets so much hate over other authors. It didn't materialize out of nowhere. No other author in GW's history has managed to create the same kind of angst and butthurt nerd rage, and there's a reason for that. More than any other author, he writes like an internet fan-boy, a Michael Bay of codex authors. Others have their issues yes, very definitely so, and Ward has his good moments, but there's a reason he's so divisive and seen in such a poor light in so many circles.

See. That's where you go wrong, even as the arguments fail you.

There is no objectively verifable reason Ward gets this sort of hate of Ward over other authors. Any claim ever brought forward against him has been found in equal quality, quantity and severity in the other books of current and past Codex authors. Usually their incompetence far, far outstrips even the most remote claims laid at Ward's feet. Kelly's incompetent, bland, expositionary and blatantly fanboi-pandering writing style being the most poignant example in this case.

All the "Ward-hate" is, is a convergence of generic anti-Marine bias of jaded, cynical gronards and arm-chair game designers who failed to move on in time, combined with a self-amplifying dynamic of bitter-jaded internet-bashing which in turn becomes the basis of most people's opinion instead of the actual, objective comparison of the books.

Every single "Mat-Ward-Hater" I have ever met has been a more or less disgruntled, anti-GW whiner from the start who blamed "the company" for the (inevitable) fading of that fragile unencumberedmess of his(mostly his, not her) unspoiled, exhuberant childhood-immersions with exaggerated sci-fi cowboys and indians. Ward-Hate is a conduit for the inability of this overmature segment of the GW-customer base to preserve their rosy-tinted nostalgia of glory days that never were. They find it easier to blame an internet-scape goat rather than face their own stagnation in their hobby-time. If it wasn't for Ward, they would have found another fall guy to pick on in order to prop up their self-deluded, elitist conception of their involvement in the hobby as being somehow superiour to the parts they see as (used derogatory) "catering to the kids".

But the unbiased approach to the 5th Edition books reveals their Ward-hate to be ultimately unbased in any tangible, objective or replicable sense. There is no reason for the "Ward-hate" because the "hate" came first and it's only then that it attached to "Ward".

I have to vehemently disagree. No other author has made a codex that can 100% shut down another codex before the game starts, like GK do to daemons. This is the biggest reason for my ire. Ward's fluff can suck, but doesn't affect gameplay. Ruining a full codex means he shouldn't have a job. Supporting his actions after this is a serious insult to players who had to shelve their armies. And don't compare this to Cruddace's actions on tyranids. Those can still be played. Ward ruined 40k daemons. That is the biggest thing he should be hated for. His fluff is just a joke-shouldn't cause as much hate as it does.

*raises hand* Yep, those were my daemons who've been quake-shunted turn 1 more times than I care to remember... Why? Because list tailoring is obnoxiously rampent outside of tournament play... (and don't say, 'well don't play those people', because everyone list tailors to some extent at the local store by having multiple lists at hand!)

Anyone who wants to defend Ward as being the best codex author GW has, has obviously never;
a) been a 40k Daemon player... (*looks at shelf full of 3k daemon army that's now useless*)
b) played an army other than Daemons in 7th ed fantasy. (dark elves stood a chance, but the rest of us lowly mortals were left to rot)

Kelly admits that SW's wasn't his best work and if he could he'd go back and change a few things, which to me, shows that he at least has solid character and is willing to learn from his goofs. Ward is patronisingly obnoxious. Considering his (in)famous, "well they're Daemons!" as being a valid excuse when he destroyed 7th ed fantasy.

**pretre**

Experiment 626 wrote: everyone list tailors to some extent at the local store by having multiple lists at hand!)

Seriously? I have not experienced that before. That's a pretty lame local store if everyone tailors.

I have multiple lists for different point levels and trying out different combos, but that's about it and they are all take all comers.

Your problem would probably be the same no matter what army you played if people are going to tailor. :(

**Draigo**

pretre wrote:
Experiment 626 wrote: everyone list tailors to some extent at the local store by having multiple lists at hand!)

Seriously? I have not experienced that before. That's a pretty lame local store if everyone tailors.

I have multiple lists for different point levels and trying out different combos, but that's about it and they are all take all comers.

Your problem would probably be the same no matter what army you played if people are going to tailor. :(

Agreed

**daveNYC**

pretre wrote:
Experiment 626 wrote: everyone list tailors to some extent at the local store by having multiple lists at hand!)

Seriously? I have not experienced that before. That's a pretty lame local store if everyone tailors.

I have multiple lists for different point levels and trying out different combos, but that's about it and they are all take all comers.

Your problem would probably be the same no matter what army you played if people are going to tailor. :(

I'm assuming he meant that everyone has 'tweaked' lists on hand, as opposed to an 'all-comers' or a pile of specificly designed anti-X lists. So if you're DE, you might have a basic list, but have a variant that removes Scourges with Haywire when going up against Tyranids. And tweaking a GK list to stomp and romp on daemons would be pretty easy.

**pretre**

daveNYC wrote:I'm assuming he meant that everyone has 'tweaked' lists on hand, as opposed to an 'all-comers' or a pile of specificly designed anti-X lists. So if you're DE, you might have a basic list, but have a variant that removes Scourges with Haywire when going up against Tyranids. And tweaking a GK list to stomp and romp on daemons would be pretty easy.

Yeah, that's still not cool. I don't have 'tweaked' lists.

That seems to be a pretty big difference in store culture for him and that sucks. :(

**daveNYC**

I can see how it would suck some of the fun out of life, but it's something I can't get too worked up over (depending on the amount of 'tweaking'). There's some units that just become a waste against certain armies. And there are some swaps that are easy zero point swaps (Dark Lance/Disruptors).

YMMV, of course.

**pretre**

daveNYC wrote: There's some units that just become a waste against certain armies.

That's the whole point of TAC... Making your list so that even with dedicated X unit, you are still successful no matter who you are up against.

Oh well, difference of style, I guess.

**Oaka**

We're playing a campaign right now. I won't attack the GK player unless I have 2:1 points advantage. If he attacks me and the points are equal, I retreat. Nuff said.

I do like the Necron codex, though. But the fluff in the White Dwarf with the Necron vs. Marine/Eldar battle report is awful. Trazyn and Imotekh are like cunty high school girls that hate each other.

**Sir Pseudonymous**

Vaktathi wrote:
guiltl3ss wrote:Hey everyone,

I've been playing 40k for less than 2 years,I have a fun group of friends who plays with me, and I love the game. I started with Black Reach before getting Imperial Guard 5th Ed and now I have the new necrons. I started looking around the forums for stuff on necrons and I noticed a lot of hate on Matt Ward. I remember hearing some similar things about my Imperial Guard, and I was wondering why? The rules seem solif enough to me, the fluff is interesting...I don't see many reasons to hate the poor guy. Now I'm not defending him; I am asking out of ignorance on the subject.

Thanks!
Primarily because he tends to write fluff in a manner that you'd expect of a middle-school kids bad internet fanfic, often contradictory to previously established fluff. All too often it reads like something written by a fanboy, not a professional games designer. Now, granted, 40k has always had an element of sillyness and "larger than life" to it, but there's a limit before stuff starts to sound silly even for 40k.

This, pretty much. He's a terrible writer. I read through the Necron codex, and the only thing I could think of was that it was like reading something an unusually literate child wrote. He has little to no regard for established fluff (not necessarily a bad thing, unless it's a fundamental alteration of the setting history as a whole) , no grasp of continuity ("billlions of years ago, the Necrons went to sleep for sixty million years, and so are waking up now!"

), reason ("Necron Lords act solely out of a desire for increased personal power, so their motives are impossible to figure out!"

), or scale (the number of necrons and tombworlds implied to exist radically shifting throughout the codex), and frequently uses words incorrectly or in extremely awkward ways.

**pretre**

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:He has little to no regard for established fluff (not necessarily a bad thing, unless it's a fundamental alteration of the setting history as a whole) ,

You know Damnos and the 5th Ed Rulebook both started the path to this codex before Ward got to it, right? This whole change was well telegraphed.

no grasp of continuity ("billlions of years ago, the Necrons went to sleep for sixty million years, and so are waking up now!" ),

Umm. Citation needed. I see a lot of 'Aeons ago' but no Billions / millions errors. Oh I get it, you're going by the strict meaning of Aeon, apparently used in Astronomy. I think he's using it in the literary sense.

1. an immeasurably long period of time; age
2. (Astronomy) a period of one thousand million years

reason ("Necron Lords act solely out of a desire for increased personal power, so their motives are impossible to figure out!" ), or scale (the number of necrons and tombworlds implied to exist radically shifting throughout the codex), and frequently uses words incorrectly or in extremely awkward ways.

Not sure what you're getting at here. Examples?

In these circumstances, folks are always making claims but rarely produce textual proof. It makes it awkward to discuss.

**Oaka**

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
or scale (the number of necrons and tombworlds implied to exist radically shifting throughout the codex), and frequently uses words incorrectly or in extremely awkward ways.

I have to admit that was a very noticable detraction in the Necron codex. Everything was 'out of millions' or 'billions of', whether it was Tomb Worlds, Immortals, or original planets occupied by the Necrontyr. Every major event or large battle- "for each Necron that survived, millions were wiped out". I have absolutely no idea what the size of the race actually is in the galaxy.

**pretre**

I think that is the point. They ruled the entire galaxy before the War in Heaven. Keep in mind that Billions isn't really that many either, since Earth (which would be considered a backwater in 40k at present levels) has billions of inhabitants.

There were probably millions of tomb worlds. Each one has a lot of folks on it.

Heck, the Imperium loses Millions of Guardsmen every day.

**Oaka**

But it detracts from a sense of numbers in the galaxy. Each Space Marine chapter has 1000 bodies. Billions upon Billions of Necrons doesn't give much hope to humanity. Hence, Matt Ward broke the fluff.

**pretre**

Oaka wrote:But it detracts from a sense of numbers in the galaxy. Each Space Marine chapter has 1000 bodies. Billions upon Billions of Necrons doesn't give much hope to humanity.

Umm. Oaka, I'd like you to meet my friend Warhammer 40k. He's pretty bleak and obsessed with war, but don't let that get you down.

That's the whole point. Humanity is beset on all sides by enemies that can (and probably will) wipe them out. You have to conceive of how big space is and then imagine something bigger than that. That's how big we're talking here.

Billions of planets. On most of them are orks or tyranids or necrons or something that hates us. Each one of those billions of planets has millions to billions of those things that hate us. (Not even counting chaos here.)

The imperium has millions of planets. Each one has billions of people on it.

The fact is that we are out-numbered. This is part of what makes the universe dark and gritty. The hopelessness of our cause.

**AlmightyWalrus**

Pen≥Sword wrote:
AlmightyWalrus wrote:
sillyhatface wrote:And gues what army is considered the "best" in 40k? Yes GK. IMO its a telling sign.

You'd have a point if it wasn't for the fact that there's no universally accepted "best" army. Space Wolves and the Imperial Guard are every bit as powerful as the Grey Knights, but that doesn't fit in in your theory, so let's just ignore it, shall we? While we're at it, let's ignore the fact that the "daemon-invaliditating army" requires a list with at least 20 Interceptors to actually work decently, which leaves the Grey Knight list pretty behind against other armies. It's list tailoring, hardly anything new.

Except regular PAGK get warpquake too. So there's that.

Fair enough. How many top-tier Grey Knights lists do you see that include Strike Squads and Interceptors?

**pretre**

Oaka wrote: Hence, Matt Ward broke the fluff.

Stealth edit.

Tyranids did it before Necrons and Orks before that. Orks are the most numerous species in the galaxy. I'll have to find a citation for that, but it has been said before and will be said again.

Humanity is outnumbered and that is nothing new. Matt ward didn't do that. 40k did that.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yeah, seriously, go read Page 5 of Codex: Tyranids.
"The Tyranids' numbers are beyond imagining, a swam so vast that it blocks out the very stars."

Not to mention"The imperium of man stands alone on a galactic stage choked with enemies, assailed on all sides..."

**azazel the cat**

My dislike for Ward is due to the fact that he is an exceptionally sloppy writer when it comes to rules. Let's look at the Newcron codex:

1. How many models are hit by the Death Ray?
2. Can Mindshackle Scarabs use the ID effect of Force Weapons?
3. How many Crypteks can join each squad if you have two Royal Courts?
4. Does the Empathic Obliterator work from the sweep attacks in a Catacomb Command Barge?
5. Can you use a Chronometron to re-roll Imotekh's Lord of the Storm ability?
6. What is the order of operations for Reanimation Protocols and Ever-Living?
7. Can I use Symbiotic Repair on a Catacomb Command Barge when a 4 is rolled naturally?
8. Do Wraiths get an additional close combat attack if they bring pistols?

As to the fluff, I normally have my give-a-

set to zero. However, in the Newcron codex pg. 59 in the bottom-right corner is the best piece of writing I have ever seen from GW. That one gem goes a long way towards redemption in my eyes.

**pretre**

"Orks are the most warlike aliens in the 41st Mill and their number is beyond counting"

At least we can count Necrons in the billions.

**Draigo**

Every person whos written a novel or codex breaks fluff..

**Oaka**

I guess I just don't like the fact that an entire civilization arises that is as populated as Humanity, but they all have stats equivalent to a Space Marine?

**pretre**

azazel the cat wrote:My dislike for Ward is due to the fact that he is an exceptionally sloppy writer when it comes to rules. Let's look at the Newcron codex:
.

Oh, good call, because no other codex (including the last Cron one) has ever had an extensive number of FAQ questions and answers because their book was unclear.

**Draigo**

Oaka wrote:I guess I just don't like the fact that an entire civilization arises that is as populated as Humanity, but they all have stats equivalent to a Space Marine?

Huh? Your mad they are as strong as the Imperium's super soldiers? really?

**Oaka**

pretre wrote:
azazel the cat wrote:My dislike for Ward is due to the fact that he is an exceptionally sloppy writer when it comes to rules. Let's look at the Newcron codex:
.

Oh, good call, because no other codex (including the last Cron one) has ever had an extensive number of FAQ questions and answers because their book was unclear.

There is quite a large inventory of debatable questions from this codex where even the winning side admits it needs to be FAQed.

**pretre**

Oaka wrote:I guess I just don't like the fact that an entire civilization arises that is as populated as Humanity, but they all have stats equivalent to a Space Marine?

Except for armor save and initiative, sure.

**Oaka**

Draigo wrote:
Oaka wrote:I guess I just don't like the fact that an entire civilization arises that is as populated as Humanity, but they all have stats equivalent to a Space Marine?

Huh? Your mad they are as strong as the Imperium's super soldiers? really?

The regular Necrontyr citizen, who took your fast food order and got your sand burger wrong even though you asked for no pickles three times? Yeah, I'm mad.

**pretre**

Oaka wrote:There is quite a large inventory of debatable questions from this codex where even the winning side admits it needs to be FAQed.

You know that the last Necron codex has a 4 page FAQ, right?
You know that there are pages of questions for books that Ward didn't write, right?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Oaka wrote:The regular Necrontyr citizen, who took your fast food order and got your sand burger wrong even though you asked for no pickles three times? Yeah, I'm mad.

Who was put into a robot body by a star god? Yeah...

And the robot body makes you slow, dumb and takes away all your individuality. Hmm...