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AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Lord Rogukiel wrote:All stories of single characters or heroes taking on the might of legions are ridiculous. You cite Maugan Ra, but what about Calgar holding an entire pass against an Ork horde for an entire day, Tigerius owning the Hive Mind, the overused Draigo slaying Mortarion... etc?

Every codex has got at least one ridiculous hero or something which just wouldn't work, no matter how hard you try to believe it. Why not just go all the way in this train of thought and say: "the emperor is OP in fluff and should be dead"?

And finally, how is it "ridiculous" that Draigo, the greatest of the Grey Knights, whose very being is anathema to daemons, beat Mortarion, a daemon Primarch, after Morty just slaughtered the ex-greatest Grey Knight?

Very rediculous. Beating up on daemons, even super-special named daemons, is a staple in the fluff. The Eldar Avatar basically exists to get Worfed in the fluff. Daemon Primarchs, OTOH, are a completely different critter. They're the Emperor's ultimate failures, and the Imperium's ultimate enemies. Using one in the fluff, especially as a punching bag, undermines their place in the 40k setting. Think of the bit in Dead Sky, Black Sun when Ventris looks out towards the city palace where Perturabo resides. Daemon Primarchs should be grade-A Lovecraftian loco sauce, not soft targets for a bad revenge fantasy.

Other fluff sins of Mr Ward:
The use of the word 'blood' as verb, adjective, noun, adverb, and punctionation in the BA codex, and the word 'incorruptible' gets the same treatment in the GK book. Of course this is sadly similar to the use of the word 'wolf' in the SW codex. Dear GW writers, there is a fine line between having a theme and being one dimensional.
The GK are now full blown radicals. Daemon weapons and bound daemonhosts are now perfectly cromulent choices for the army.
All space marines want to be Ultramarines, and love Guilliman.

It's not that he has over the top fluff and all the other writers are Pulitzer winners. It's that each of his codices has something that's so out there that it actually manages to break immersion when reading it.

And what's with all the Kelly hate? DE is generally considered to be damn solid codex. You've got multiple valid themes (kabalite, wych, flesh carnival) and multiple delivery systems (vehicle, webway, foot (OK, foot sucks)). Plus the fluff is fine, there's nothing insane going on, and the DE are generally shown as a 'realisticly' strong threat, but with a minimum of Mary-Sueness.

See, the people who complain that ward isnt "picked" on compared to other writers should look at his track record. 0-3-2 for a well recieved codex. The draws being codex space marine, which aside from the every space marine ever wants to be an ultramarine, isnt half bad. And people dont complain about the crons as much as the others.

But ward has had at least 2 game breaking codexes. Deamons and Grey Knights.

No other writter has screwed up all of his published books like ward has.

Marine_With_Heart wrote:When it comes to Matt Ward Im neutral, where does that leave me in all of this?

The Smart one that is avoiding the shrapnel of abject stupidity.

I, as I have stated earlier, dislike all of the current codex writers, but Ward continually strikes me as more glaringly bad than the others, not necessarily worse, just that his terrible is immediately obvious. Kelly and Ward are both fanboy writers, and their work shows it. Cruddace's work is generic and bad. All three of them have a vested interest in invalidating your previous army list, so they can sell you more $50 boxes of plastic, $20 chunks of metal, and now $30 Pieces of resin.

I will stick with Ward as he is the subject of this thread, but note the others are little better.
1) The Ultramarines went from being a chapter that had it's foibles and mistakes to COMPLETE MARY-SUES. Ask anyone who plays a chapter not decended from rowboat girlyman's seed about what they think of this "spiritual liege" bovine fecal matter. And he couldn't even leave it out of the BA codex, he has even the BA worshiping the smurfs following the Codex Astartes. And that bit of fluff doesn't even remotely fit the crunch, since half the codex is assault squads of varying flavors. Any mention of any other chapter is BRUTALLY DISRGUARDED. The basic marine codex covers all of the chapters that do no have specific codecies, where as we instead get CODEX ULTRAMARINES. Every single line of fluff in that codex goes above and beyond the normal "hey here's your army being awesome". It's pedantic wish fulfillment devoid of any merit even as just fluff to fill pages, the book would have been better if every line of fluff was instead blank.
2) Brutal disrespect of the SoB, the grey knights make fingerpaints out of them, and him a Cruddace team up to write a very limited (and fairly bad) codex, just to invalidate C:WH, while not giving the sisters the weakest current codex (maybe slightly better than daemons). And the separation of the WH from their chamber militant (SoB) is so infuriating and does nothing but take away options in a time when every other army is getting new ones.
3) Incredible amounts of WTF in C:GK, they go from that one weird army, that is made for fighting daemons, but give daemons bonuses, and lets everyone else take daemons, to a table eating machine with extra kick-in-the-nuts to the already worst army in the game. And now you can have radical Inquisitor with DAEMONHOSTS lead the GK happily. WHY WOULD ANY GK NOT FLIP OUT AND START MURDERING ANY ONE WHO IS BINDING DAEMONHOSTS???? That's not just a violation of fluff, that is an utter abandonment of logic.

I could go on, but it's honestly infuriating me even more as I write it.

Bottom Line: GW really should fire Ward, Kelly and Cruddace, not a one of them is worth a crap. Can has andy chambers plzkthnx?

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:The draws being codex space marine, which aside from the every space marine ever wants to be an ultramarine, isnt half bad.

Especially considering that isn't actually what it says...

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:The draws being codex space marine, which aside from the every space marine ever wants to be an ultramarine, isnt half bad.

Especially considering that isn't actually what it says...

It's so close to what it says that it really doesn't matter.

I found it a bit off the Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor was in the GK book. Were they also in the sister book/article?

Zweischneid wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:
There's a reason Ward gets so much hate over other authors. It didn't materialize out of nowhere. No other author in GW's history has managed to create the same kind of angst and butthurt nerd rage, and there's a reason for that. More than any other author, he writes like an internet fan-boy, a Michael Bay of codex authors. Others have their issues yes, very definitely so, and Ward has his good moments, but there's a reason he's so divisive and seen in such a poor light in so many circles.

See. That's where you go wrong, even as the arguments fail you.

There is no objectively verifable reason Ward gets this sort of hate of Ward over other authors. Any claim ever brought forward against him has been found in equal quality, quantity and severity in the other books of current and past Codex authors. Usually their incompetence far, far outstrips even the most remote claims laid at Ward's feet. Kelly's incompetent, bland, expositionary and blatantly fanboi-pandering writing style being the most poignant example in this case.

All the "Ward-hate" is, is a convergence of generic anti-Marine bias of jaded, cynical gronards and arm-chair game designers who failed to move on in time, combined with a self-amplifying dynamic of bitter-jaded internet-bashing which in turn becomes the basis of most people's opinion instead of the actual, objective comparison of the books.

Every single "Mat-Ward-Hater" I have ever met has been a more or less disgruntled, anti-GW whiner from the start who blamed "the company" for the (inevitable) fading of that fragile unencumberedmess of his(mostly his, not her) unspoiled, exhuberant childhood-immersions with exaggerated sci-fi cowboys and indians. Ward-Hate is a conduit for the inability of this overmature segment of the GW-customer base to preserve their rosy-tinted nostalgia of glory days that never were. They find it easier to blame an internet-scape goat rather than face their own stagnation in their hobby-time. If it wasn't for Ward, they would have found another fall guy to pick on in order to prop up their self-deluded, elitist conception of their involvement in the hobby as being somehow superiour to the parts they see as (used derogatory) "catering to the kids".

But the unbiased approach to the 5th Edition books reveals their Ward-hate to be ultimately unbased in any tangible, objective or replicable sense. There is no reason for the "Ward-hate" because the "hate" came first and it's only then that it attached to "Ward".

I have to vehemently disagree. No other author has made a codex that can 100% shut down another codex before the game starts, like GK do to daemons. This is the biggest reason for my ire. Ward's fluff can suck, but doesn't affect gameplay. Ruining a full codex means he shouldn't have a job. Supporting his actions after this is a serious insult to players who had to shelve their armies. And don't compare this to Cruddace's actions on tyranids. Those can still be played. Ward ruined 40k daemons. That is the biggest thing he should be hated for. His fluff is just a joke-shouldn't cause as much hate as it does.

Hmm, lets all just stop posting on this thread, the op's question has been answered, and all this is becoming is a flame war.

But the Matt Ward Hate is such a deep subject and warrents being explored in depth at every opportunity.

BTW the Mods are out Christmas shopping post ponies!

How does she fire that heavy flamer? (yes, that's the thing that's bugging me)

New user here thought I'd weigh in a little

Zweischneid wrote: As shown above frequently, this divison into "occassionally" (not-Ward) and "consistently (Ward) is not matched by actual readings of the books. If anything, Cruddace and Kelly feth it up with far greater consistency than Ward ever did.

How so? As far as I've read (Not Cruddace as much mind you) Kelly keeps with past Fluff, Dark Eldar were further expanded and in a way that respected their old fluff as well as adding new stuff, and I think this is a big thing, its not so much ether part thats bad its the fact that Ward could have incorporated elements of the past books smoother as well as add his own flair. One example for me is the more recent Necrons. While I actually do like a lot of the new fluff, its the fact that instead of including old fluff (something that could have been done easily) he decided to destroy major elements, namely the C'tan. I'd say the C'tan were the most contributing factor of the old fluff, and there were certainly ways to include them without "killing them" and also giving Necrons personality. Same goes for his other books. Its not so much what he includes but the manor in which he does so.

Zweischneid wrote: The fluff in Dark Eldar is just as bad, if not worse than Space Wolves. Eldar 4th pretty much broke 4th Edition. IG? Do a Forum search on "Leafblower". And "a couple things in the Tyranid book". Seriously, if you don't see how your own pre-bias to corner Ward is playing tricks on you, there is little more to say.

Again what do you mean? Dark Eldar fluff I feel is some of the most undertoned fluff in any of the Codex's theres nothing in there fluff wise exactly crazy. Also as far as rules wise I think its generally agreed Dark Eldar are a mid-tier army. IG? Yea top-tier and this is where I think I'd point out a previous post that mentions each author has had one bad book, and no I'm not pushing it off, its a bad thing and honestly no author should have ANY bad books. However with Ward he has at the very least two EXTREMELY broken army's he's written. This may not affect you but I quite Warhammer Fantasy due to Demons; its top-tier, even now. And gues what army is considered the "best" in 40k? Yes GK. IMO its a telling sign.

Zweischneid wrote: Kelly's fluff is consistently just as bad, if not worse. His writing is simplistic on a literary level below that of Ward with mostly ex-machina, expositionary statements thrown at the reader ("Vect is the most intelligent DE!" "Dark Eldar are a depraved race!" "Vect didn't feel appreciated in his childhood!", etc..) But that is just the point. Kelly doesn't get the same hate despite producing worse fluff with great consistency BECAUSE the Ward hate is not grounded in objective readings of the different authors.

Because Dark Eldar are a depraved race and have been in the past? I like Kelly's writing better personally as it it seems to be written more as if your reading a history book(yea I'm wierd I like reading historical things) then anything else as apposed to some power fantasy but to each their own.
I mean they are, whats the problem with that? Also you mention "Emo" in another post I mean if anything I'd say thats eldar and honestly using that word could be applied to ANY space marines. Well maybe not Space Wolfs.
As far as Vect, really we're going there? I mean of all the things to nitpic thats sorta the most believable thing you could have chosen. I don't find it hard to believe someone would develop sociopath tendency's from something that happens in the actual world, as say apposed to some of Wards more crazy stories.

Zweischneid wrote: What do you base your judgements of what is "an occassional, excusable mistake" and a "consistent" mistake on?

I don't think any mistakes are forgivable, but what matters is how many there are and the consistency, as you say. While I can't say anything on Cruddance's behalf, Kelly I'd say has on average been very moderate on his handling of both Fluff and rules. Eldar are currently not top-tier IMO, Orks can compete but are still not considered great due to the weakness of heavy infantry armys, and Dark Elder also being a mid-tier army, with SW being Kelly's OP army. I compare this to Ward and the codex's I know he's done and read I find more often then not broken army's (not I'm not currently counting Necron's as they are still relatively new and as such have not been generally agreed on where they belong in the meta-game)

While I don't hate Ward, I think all Codex authors should be held accountable for their mistakes so that that better Codex's can be written in the future. So in that regard I do somewhat agree with you, that if anything while its fine to bash Ward for mistakes, we shouldn't forget some of the mistakes some of the other author's make.

Im failing to see how leafblower ig compares to the shenagains in cgk. Leafblower didnt shelf a whole army.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:Im failing to see how leafblower ig compares to the shenagains in cgk. Leafblower didnt shelf a whole army.

Well Ig is pretty rough on lots of armies lol you ever see foot sloggers, daemons etc vs IG? pretty ugly if theyre on.

Armless Failure wrote:I will stick with Ward as he is the subject of this thread, but note the others are little better.
1) The Ultramarines went from being a chapter that had it's foibles and mistakes to COMPLETE MARY-SUES. Ask anyone who plays a chapter not decended from rowboat girlyman's seed about what they think of this "spiritual liege" bovine fecal matter.

I'm not going to say that Ward's fluff is good, but you haven't actually read it and are just parroting something somebody told you one time after they read it on 1d4chan, lol. He was talking about the Codex chapters. And most of them are descended from the Ultramarines. Around 60% of the Chapters currently in existence are descended from the Ultramarines, which mean they can trace their lineage either directly to the Ultramarines because their original Marines were Ultramarines (The Second Found Ultramarines Successors, all 250 or so of them), or they were created from Ultramarines gene seed. I mean, there are essentially 600 or so Chapters in the Imperium descended from the Ultramarines. Chances are, most of them take pride in this fact, given the fact that the Ultramarines are the "greatest of all Space Marine chapters" (Rick Priestley, creator of 40K) and their primarch wrote the greatest and most comprehensive tome of military wisdom ever, the Codex Astartes. Nobody ever really mentioned it before 5th Edition, but the idea that the bulk of the Codex chapters hold the Ultramarines in high esteem just makes sense.

And he couldn't even leave it out of the BA codex, he has even the BA worshiping the smurfs following the Codex Astartes. And that bit of fluff doesn't even remotely fit the crunch, since half the codex is assault squads of varying flavors. Any mention of any other chapter is BRUTALLY DISRGUARDED. The basic marine codex covers all of the chapters that do no have specific codecies, where as we instead get CODEX ULTRAMARINES. Every single line of fluff in that codex goes above and beyond the normal "hey here's your army being awesome". It's pedantic wish fulfillment devoid of any merit even as just fluff to fill pages, the book would have been better if every line of fluff was instead blank.

And most of the battles described in the 5th Edition codex predate that Codex. Ward didn't create them. Besides, the C:SM has always been Codex: Ultramarines. They just gave it the generic name so it wouldn't confuse people looking for what codex to buy for their standard Marine army. Look at 3E or 4E C:SM. Still dominated by Ultramarines fluff, illustrations and models. Go back to 2nd Edition when the first codexes were released? There wasn't even a Codex: Space Marines. It was just flat out called Codex: Ultramarines.

And the Blood Angels have always been described as a chapter that follows the Codex, but disregards some of its organizational tenets (hence extra assaulty) partly due to their defective gene seed (Death Company). The Codex Astartes is thousands upon thousands of pages long. It's possible for a chapter to follow some parts and not others.

"Many more chapters are organized largely according to Codex guidelines, but with slight variations. Both the Blood Angels and Dark Angels fall into this category." P. 7 Codex: Angels of Death. 1996 (that pesky 40K creator guy Rick Priestley again) In 3rd Edition the Blood Angels Codex wasn't even a stand alone product (had to also own C:SM). "Although the Blood Angels and their successor chapters vary from a 'Codex' Space Marine Army there are more similarities than differences." (C:BA 3E p.3)

You don't really know much about 40K fluff and product history at all do you?

I've never seen any writer bring out as much bile and hatred as Ward. That alone tells me that something is up, as GW writers have done daft things in the past but have never galvanised the fanbase in quite the same way as Ward does. Hell after the GK Codex came out the subject of Ward was even banned on 4Chan, and it takes a lot to have an entire topic banned at a place like that.

Just out of interest, has anyone actually written to GW giving their opinion of Ward?

Imagine if all the people who dislike his work wrote to GW instead of writing on forums! Job done!

I think it's worth remembering that Matt's stuff is approved by GW. In other words, they are happy for him to take armies in new directions, happy with the rules, and happy with the fluff he writes. Perhaps this is the shape of things to come later...

: /

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:Im failing to see how leafblower ig compares to the shenagains in cgk. Leafblower didnt shelf a whole army.

Leafblower shelved every army, in it's prime.

This has actually been quite informative...given all the references to previous rules and such. So I'd like to thank you old-heads for that.

While Ward might do interesting things with fluff or rules, the game still sells itself. Regardless if he makes marines 50pts each and can only use combat knives, there will still be people that find a way to make that army workable.

The Ward-thread is fun, but I think it's time the big-boy pants were put on and everyone went back to painting their miniatures.

sillyhatface wrote:And gues what army is considered the "best" in 40k? Yes GK. IMO its a telling sign.

You'd have a point if it wasn't for the fact that there's no universally accepted "best" army. Space Wolves and the Imperial Guard are every bit as powerful as the Grey Knights, but that doesn't fit in in your theory, so let's just ignore it, shall we? While we're at it, let's ignore the fact that the "daemon-invaliditating army" requires a list with at least 20 Interceptors to actually work decently, which leaves the Grey Knight list pretty behind against other armies. It's list tailoring, hardly anything new.

While I'm not sure we can say that GKs are unequivocally the best army out there (I think they're on a level with the Wolves and IG), I think what rightfully irks a number of non-GK players is the fact that common features and builds tend to create more rock-paper-scissors situations than any other army out there.

Purifiers Vs Hordes, Paladins Vs armies with limited access to S8/AP2 shooting/combat, Strike squads Vs deep-striking armies, GKs of any sort Vs Multi-wound low-invul save armies.

Whether or not intentional, it seems that Ward designed the GKs by looking at other armies and thinking, 'how can I make it so GKs totally own these guys', rather than, 'how can make it so GKs are balanced against these guys'.

Bongo_clive wrote:Just out of interest, has anyone actually written to GW giving their opinion of Ward?

Imagine if all the people who dislike his work wrote to GW instead of writing on forums! Job done!

Don't know about anyone else, but there are multiple petitions floating around demanding his firing, and I have send multiple letter and emails to GW regarding this issue. I kept them clean and to the point, and followed up with a statement of my refusal to purchase any product from GW for as long a Mr. Ward is writing. And I have stuck to it, any product I have purchased has been second hand, or from another company. The letter was also critical of the failcast models (Resin is cheaper than metal, and they refuse to pass the saving on).

If other people want to pursue this course of action, I recommend a combined approach of physical letters, email, petitions, and boycott. The last part is truly important if you want to be taken seriously. Threaten a companies bottom line and they react. It takes some dedication and discipline, but that is how to do it.

Well. I spent a small fortune on Space Marines, Blood Angels and now Necrons (an army that never before interested me but has now grabbed my full attention). I will also purchase a few Dreadknights, if only for Apoc problably.

After many years of abscence and indifference to the hobby due to the poor and uninspired writers that dominated 3rd and 4th Edition, Ward's outstanding, innovative and bold work has truly rekindled my fire for 40K. And not only mine, but at the very least those of my entire old "gaming group" that hadn't touched a mini by and large since Necromunda was all the rage.

Thank you Mr. Ward for bringing imagination, fun and life back to 40K.

Thank you GW for the fantastic revival you've made possible by brining Mr. Ward on board.

As long as Ward remains a truly integral part of the 40K line, be assured that you will continue to receive many hundreds of euro from me, month after month, year after year, and hereby pledge to not touch or buy the minis of any other game company.

Yours, Z.

[edit]
P.S.

Keep Kelly away doing piraty-things. It's the best place for him. It really is.

Zweischneid wrote:Well. I spent a small fortune on Space Marines, Blood Angels and now Necrons (an army that never before interested me but has now grabbed my full attention). I will also purchase a few Dreadknights, if only for Apoc problably.

After many years of abscence and indifference to the hobby due to the poor and uninspired writers that dominated 3rd and 4th Edition, Ward's outstanding, innovative and bold work has truly rekindled my fire for 40K. And not only mine, but at the very least those of my entire old "gaming group" that hadn't touched a mini by and large since Necromunda was all the rage.

Thank you Mr. Ward for bringing imagination, fun and life back to 40K.

Thank you GW for the fantastic revival you've made possible by brining Mr. Ward on board.

As long as Ward remains a truly integral part of the 40K line, be assured that you will continue to receive many hundreds of euro from me, month after month, year after year, and hereby pledge to not touch or buy the minis of any other game company.

Yours, Z.

[edit]
P.S.

Keep Kelly away doing piraty-things. It's the best place for him. It really is.

Obvious Troll is Obvious

Armless Failure wrote:Obvious Troll is Obvious

So showing support for the hobby you love and acknowledging the great fun you had and have with 40K is trolling these days? And attempts to rally net-sheep into blackmailing GW is laudable activity to be pursued on these boards?

Poor Dakka... how hast thou fallen from the heavens, O shining one, son of the dawn!

Armless Failure wrote:

Zweischneid wrote:Well. I spent a small fortune on Space Marines, Blood Angels and now Necrons (an army that never before interested me but has now grabbed my full attention). I will also purchase a few Dreadknights, if only for Apoc problably.

After many years of abscence and indifference to the hobby due to the poor and uninspired writers that dominated 3rd and 4th Edition, Ward's outstanding, innovative and bold work has truly rekindled my fire for 40K. And not only mine, but at the very least those of my entire old "gaming group" that hadn't touched a mini by and large since Necromunda was all the rage.

Thank you Mr. Ward for bringing imagination, fun and life back to 40K.

Thank you GW for the fantastic revival you've made possible by brining Mr. Ward on board.

As long as Ward remains a truly integral part of the 40K line, be assured that you will continue to receive many hundreds of euro from me, month after month, year after year, and hereby pledge to not touch or buy the minis of any other game company.

Yours, Z.

[edit]
P.S.

Keep Kelly away doing piraty-things. It's the best place for him. It really is.

Obvious Troll is Obvious

Obvious Troll is Obvious, yourself.

Self reflection: 0 ?

Zweischneid, I'm going to tell you this in the nicest way I can, because honestly the way I want to say it would be be ungentlemanly and get me banned from the site.

For as long as I have been reading this topic you have spent it venting rage like a tantruming child, argueing with complaints about vague concepts with few examples and ad hominem attacks. People have given plenty of examples and counter arguments against your position and you continue to ignore them to regurgitate the same points by the next page. You have called everyone who has disagreed with you a fanboy and yet you sound much more like a fanboy than anyone else here. I politely ask that, since you refuse to take this as an actual debate rather than your personal Kelly-hate vent, that you simply stop posting here, both for your own sake and for everyone else on topic.

Don't bother responding to this. I have ignored you weeks ago and even if I haven't I doubt it would be anything dignified.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

sillyhatface wrote:And gues what army is considered the "best" in 40k? Yes GK. IMO its a telling sign.

You'd have a point if it wasn't for the fact that there's no universally accepted "best" army. Space Wolves and the Imperial Guard are every bit as powerful as the Grey Knights, but that doesn't fit in in your theory, so let's just ignore it, shall we? While we're at it, let's ignore the fact that the "daemon-invaliditating army" requires a list with at least 20 Interceptors to actually work decently, which leaves the Grey Knight list pretty behind against other armies. It's list tailoring, hardly anything new.

Except regular PAGK get warpquake too. So there's that.

Zweischneid wrote:

Armless Failure wrote:Obvious Troll is Obvious

So showing support for the hobby you love and acknowledging the great fun you had and have with 40K is trolling these days? And attempts to rally net-sheep into blackmailing GW is laudable activity to be pursued on these boards?

Poor Dakka... how hast thou fallen from the heavens, O shining one, son of the dawn!

I was just calling out what sounds like Matt Ward writing his own rebuttal. Seriously, your praise was more hyperbolic than our condemnation.

And a boycott is not blackmail, it's capitalism.