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So first you say this:

Randall Turner wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:So Psychic powers, like Psychic communion can be used while in reserve?

Are they given permission to do so? Yeah, I didn't think so. Logic fail.

Then you say this:

Randall Turner wrote:There is no restriction, other than Imotekh's inclusion. That enables the entire special ability. There's then a blanket permission for the ability to activate AND roll to continue, without qualification. The special rule does not care where Imotekh is. Look at it again:

'If your army includes Imotekh the Stormlord, the night fight rules apply automatically at the start of the game. Furthermore, you can attempt to keep night fighting rules in play in subsequent game turns by rolling a d6 at the start of the turn." No restrictions, no qualifications other than Imotekh being in the army. None.

You are given Permission to cast Psychic Communion and "There is no restriction...There's then a blanket permission for the ability to activate, without qualification."

So which is is?

P.S. Please remember Rule #1, Thank you.

Let's take this step by step. We should be able to at least agree on where we disagree.

You are saying that this:
'If your army includes Imotekh the Stormlord, the night fight rules apply automatically at the start of the game. Furthermore, you can attempt to keep night fighting rules in play in subsequent game turns by rolling a d6 at the start of the turn."

Is equivalent to this:
'If your army includes Imotekh the Stormlord, the night fight rules apply automatically at the start of the game."
"Furthermore, if your army includes Imotekh the Stormlord, you can attempt to keep night fighting rules in play in subsequent game turns by rolling a d6 at the start of the turn."

I agree. So far, so good. So, what's different about the two sentences? Why is one allowed from reserve, and the other isn't?

Your contention is that the phrase "apply automatically" implies "may be used from reserve", and only applies to the first sentence.
Mine is that the phrase "If your army includes Imotekh the Stormlord" implies "may be used from reserve", and commutes to both sentences.

Have I correctly isolated the disagreement, to your satisfaction?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DeathReaper wrote: Psychic Communion

If you want to debate a completely different rule, reproduce it here in its entirety so we can parse it.

Psychic Communion is basically a Psychic power used at the start of the movement phase that modifies reserve rolls by +1 or -1.

One is allowed from reserve because the rule specifically tells you that night fight rules are automatically applied at the start of the game. It doesn't matter that Imotekh is still in reserves, because the night fight rules are automatically applied per the RAW.

Now do you have any rule in the second part of the rule that automatically applies night fight rules? Do you have any explicit permission to make d6 rolls if Imotekh is in reserves? Are the d6 rolls automatic? Are the subsequent turns the start of the game?

Are you serious that from, "If your army contains Imotekh the Stormlord..." that you extrapolate, "may be used from reserve"? Why not extrapolate, "automatically wins the game on a d6 roll of 1+"? That is just as ridiculous.

DeathReaper wrote:Psychic Communion is basically a Psychic power used at the start of the movement phase that modifies reserve rolls by +1 or -1.

I know, Death Reaper, I have all the codices, but one of us is going to have to break down and type it in. I'd rather someone else did the work.

If you want to take it on faith, though, the key point is that the rule doesn't give specific enabling conditions that can be met while in reserve. ie, it doesn't have "while alive" or "If your army includes" or any of those sorts of blanket enablers.

Imotekh's Lord of the Storm has "If your army includes Imotekh..." without qualifiers. Psychic Communion has no enabler at all. With no enabling condition, we fall back on "may not be employed from reserve", just like every other special ability.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brother Ramses wrote:Are you serious that from, "If your army contains Imotekh the Stormlord..." that you extrapolate, "may be used from reserve"? Why not extrapolate, "automatically wins the game on a d6 roll of 1+"? That is just as ridiculous.

I don't want to keep using the phrase "fail logic", but that's all that fits.

"If your army includes Imotekh the Stormlord" is unqualified. Do you understand what that means? It means that's the necessary and sufficient condition. It's necessary, and nothing else is necessary - including being on the board.

Brother Ramses wrote:One is allowed from reserve because the rule specifically tells you that night fight rules are automatically applied at the start of the game. It doesn't matter that Imotekh is still in reserves, because the night fight rules are automatically applied per the RAW.

Now do you have any rule in the second part of the rule that automatically applies night fight rules? Do you have any explicit permission to make d6 rolls if Imotekh is in reserves? Are the d6 rolls automatic? Are the subsequent turns the start of the game?

Are you serious that from, "If your army contains Imotekh the Stormlord..." that you extrapolate, "may be used from reserve"? Why not extrapolate, "automatically wins the game on a d6 roll of 1+"? That is just as ridiculous.

So are you saying that the Lighting Strikes do not come into effect if Imotekh is held in reserve?

Randall Turner wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:Psychic Communion is basically a Psychic power used at the start of the movement phase that modifies reserve rolls by +1 or -1.

I know, Death Reaper, I have all the codices, but one of us is going to have to break down and type it in. I'd rather someone else did the work.

If you want to take it on faith, though, the key point is that the rule doesn't give specific enabling conditions that can be met while in reserve. ie, it doesn't have "while alive" or "If your army includes" or any of those sorts of blanket enablers.

Imotekh's Lord of the Storm has "If your army includes Imotekh..." without qualifiers. Psychic Communion has no enabler at all. With no enabling condition, we fall back on "may not be employed from reserve", just like every other special ability.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brother Ramses wrote:Are you serious that from, "If your army contains Imotekh the Stormlord..." that you extrapolate, "may be used from reserve"? Why not extrapolate, "automatically wins the game on a d6 roll of 1+"? That is just as ridiculous.

I don't want to keep using the phrase "fail logic", but that's all that fits.

"If your army includes Imotekh the Stormlord" is unqualified. Do you understand what that means? It means that's the necessary and sufficient condition. It's necessary, and nothing else is necessary - including being on the board.

No, that is a condition that must be met to then allow what he can do with tier own set of qualifications and restrictions.

If your army includes Imotekh the Stormlord;

1. Night Fighting rules are automatically applied at the start of the game. Not at the end of the game, not at the beginning of the Necron players turn, not in turn four, but AT THE START OF THE GAME. Imotekh does not need to roll, he does not need to be on the board, he does not need to be dancing the Cabbage Patch; the night fight rules are AUTOMATICALLY applied.

2. You can attempt to keep the Night Fighting rules in play in subsequent game tuns by rolling a D6 at the start of the turn. Absolutely no permission to roll from reserves which is the explicit directions needed to roll from reserve.

Here is your major malfunction;

"If your army includes..."

Is not explicit permission.

"May roll from Reserves..."

Is explicit permission.

Randall Turner wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:Psychic Communion is basically a Psychic power used at the start of the movement phase that modifies reserve rolls by +1 or -1.

If you want to take it on faith, though, the key point is that the rule doesn't give specific enabling conditions that can be met while in reserve. ie, it doesn't have "while alive" or "If your army includes" or any of those sorts of blanket enablers.

Imotekh's Lord of the Storm has "If your army includes Imotekh..." without qualifiers. Psychic Communion has no enabler at all. With no enabling condition, we fall back on "may not be employed from reserve", just like every other special ability.

I have read the rule, no need to "Take it on Faith" I agree with you that Psychic Communion "doesn't give specific enabling conditions that can be met while in reserve"

But Neither does the second part of Imotekh's rule.

'If your army includes Imotekh the Stormlord, the night fight rules apply automatically at the start of the game. Furthermore, you can attempt to keep night fighting rules in play in subsequent game turns by rolling a d6 at the start of the turn."

If then so night fighting is in effect at the start of the game. the second part of the rule lets you roll for an effect, but it also "doesn't give specific enabling conditions that can be met while in reserve" so sonce it does not say you can, and this is a permissive ruleset, then you can not.

Brother Ramses wrote: <needs to write less, say more>

Broken down into logical semantics, the first two sentences read:

If (A) then (B) and (C). Which you correctly expanded to: If (A) then (B); If (A) then (C). The two are logically equivalent statements.

We both agreed to this.

(A) == "army includes Imotekh"
(B) == "night fight rules automatically apply turn 1"
(C) == "may roll to continue night fight"

We both agreed to this. Do we still? If we don't, we have a problem. If we do, please show me where the general rule for abilities, "if (D)", where "(D)" == "character on the board" fits in.

Oh, hell - allow me.

General rule, for Psychic Communion and most other abilities:
If (D) then (X) , where (X) == ability special rules. The "if (D)" is usually implied.

Specific rule, for Lord of the Storm, which as I'm sure you know overrides general rule:
if (A) then (X), where (X) == ability special rules.

You're saying the rule reads, If (A) then (B); if (A) and (D) then (C)
Absolutely no rules support for inserting (D) as either a partial or inclusive enabling condition. The Lord of the Storm (A) enabling condition overrides it, as specific overrides general.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DeathReaper wrote:the second part of the rule lets you roll for an effect, but it also "doesn't give specific enabling conditions that can be met while in reserve" so sonce it does not say you can, and this is a permissive ruleset, then you can not.

The "army includes Immotekh" enabling condition commutes to the second sentence also. Again, as posted four-five posts further up,

'If your army includes Imotekh the Stormlord, the night fight rules apply automatically at the start of the game. Furthermore, you can attempt to keep night fighting rules in play in subsequent game turns by rolling a d6 at the start of the turn." is equivalent to...

'If your army includes Imotekh the Stormlord, the night fight rules apply automatically at the start of the game. Furthermore, If your army includes Imotekh the Stormlord, you can attempt to keep night fighting rules in play in subsequent game turns by rolling a d6 at the start of the turn."

Again: logical semantics are "if (A) then (B) and (C)", == "if (A) then (B)" + "if (A) then (C)"

Randall Turner wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote: <needs to write less, say more>

Broken down into logical semantics, the first two sentences read:

If (A) then (B) and (C). Which you correctly expanded to: If (A) then (B); If (A) then (C). The two are logically equivalent statements.

We both agreed to this.

(A) == "army includes Imotekh"
(B) == "night fight rules automatically apply turn 1"
(C) == "may roll to continue night fight"

We both agreed to this. Do we still? If we don't, we have a problem. If we do, please show me where the general rule for abilities, "if (D)", where "(D)" == "character on the board" fits in.

Oh, hell - allow me.

General rule, for Psychic Communion and most other abilities:
If (D) then (X) , where (X) == ability special rules. The "if (D)" is usually implied.

Specific rule, for Lord of the Storm, which as I'm sure you know overrides general rule:
if (A) then (X), where (X) == ability special rules.

You're saying the rule reads, If (A) then (B); if (A) and (D) then (C)
Absolutely no rules support for inserting (D) as either a partial or inclusive enabling condition. The Lord of the Storm (A) enabling condition overrides it, as specific overrides general.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DeathReaper wrote:the second part of the rule lets you roll for an effect, but it also "doesn't give specific enabling conditions that can be met while in reserve" so sonce it does not say you can, and this is a permissive ruleset, then you can not.

The "army includes Immotekh" enabling condition commutes to the second sentence also. Again, as posted four-five posts further up,

'If your army includes Imotekh the Stormlord, the night fight rules apply automatically at the start of the game. Furthermore, you can attempt to keep night fighting rules in play in subsequent game turns by rolling a d6 at the start of the turn." is equivalent to...

'If your army includes Imotekh the Stormlord, the night fight rules apply automatically at the start of the game. Furthermore, If your army includes Imotekh the Stormlord, you can attempt to keep night fighting rules in play in subsequent game turns by rolling a d6 at the start of the turn."

Again: logical semantics are "if (A) then (B) and (C)", == "if (A) then (B)" + "if (A) then (C)"

For the second part of the rule where you keep including,

"If your army includes Imotekh the Stormlord,...."

You are only being given explicit permission to extend the Night Fighting mission special rule. That is it. There is no additional permission to do anything, OTHER then the option to extend the Night Fighting mission special rule. That is solely what having Imotekh in your army allows you to do in the second part of the rule.

@Necronlord:

The lightning bolts are dependent on two things,

1. Imotekh is in your army.
2. Night Fighting rules in play.

If Imotekh is in your army, the Night Fighting rules are automatically in play at the start of the game and thus the lightning bolts are triggered because the conditions have been met. It doesn't matter where or what Imotekh is doing at the start of the game because as long as he is in your army, the Night Fighting rules are automatically in play.

However, in subsequent turns, Imotekh must roll for to keep the Night Fighting rules in play. As Imotekh is not given explicit permission to make said rolls from reserves, he cannot keep the Night Fighting rules in play and the lightning bolts are not triggered.

Brother Ramses wrote:For the second part of the rule where you keep including,

"If your army includes Imotekh the Stormlord,...."

You are only being given explicit permission to extend the Night Fighting mission special rule. That is it.

That is correct. And THAT is what I wanted to hear from you! Thank you for playing, have a nice night.

Brother Ramses wrote:

If Imotekh is in your army, the Night Fighting rules are automatically in play at the start of the game and thus the lightning bolts are triggered because the conditions have been met. It doesn't matter where or what Imotekh is doing at the start of the game because as long as he is in your army, the Night Fighting rules are automatically in play.

However, in subsequent turns, Imotekh must roll for to keep the Night Fighting rules in play. As Imotekh is not given explicit permission to make said rolls from reserves, he cannot keep the Night Fighting rules in play and the lightning bolts are not triggered.

Imotekh is not rolling even though the FAQ implies that he is. The Necron Codex says "you" are rolling and specifies when you have permission to do so: if nightfight is still in effect. Just like the Codex says "you" are rolling for lightning. It's not Imotekh rolling for lightning and unless it is FAQed, a chrono in Imotekhs unit will NOT allow a reroll of the lightning rolls.

A curious question has come up though that may influence you to see the point I am trying to make:

Can you roll for lightning if Imotekh is in reserve? "You" are rolling for the lightning just as "you" are rolling to continue nightfight.

Nemesor Dave wrote:It's not Imotekh rolling for lightning and unless it is FAQed, a chrono in Imotekhs unit will NOT allow a reroll of the lightning rolls.

This may be a little off-topic Dave, but you're aware INAT ruled the Chronometron is usable for lighting rolls, right?

Randall Turner wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:For the second part of the rule where you keep including,

"If your army includes Imotekh the Stormlord,...."

You are only being given explicit permission to extend the Night Fighting mission special rule. That is it.

That is correct. And THAT is what I wanted to hear from you! Thank you for playing, have a nice night.

Well we know from both this thread and the JotWW that you like to selectively edit/read the rules so they will only read what you want to hear. No surprise that you would do the same with a post. Interesting that neither you or Randall can actually quote the explicit permission to roll a d6 to extend Night Fighting rules while in reserve. You can sure quote the permission to roll a d6 if Imotekh is in your army, just not the permission to roll a d6 while in reserves.

Brother Ramses wrote:

Randall Turner wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:For the second part of the rule where you keep including,

"If your army includes Imotekh the Stormlord,...."

You are only being given explicit permission to extend the Night Fighting mission special rule. That is it.

That is correct. And THAT is what I wanted to hear from you! Thank you for playing, have a nice night.

Well we know from both this thread and the JotWW that you like to selectively edit/read the rules so they will only read what you want to hear. No surprise that you would do the same with a post. Interesting that neither you or Randall can actually quote the explicit permission to roll a d6 to extend Night Fighting rules while in reserve. You can sure quote the permission to roll a d6 if Imotekh is in your army, just not the permission to roll a d6 while in reserves.

If Imotekh is in reserve, he has been "included in your army."

Just like if Imotekh is in a vehicle, in a building, or in ruins, in area terrain. The book doesn't have to give you allowance for every possibility. The rule gives the condition, and if Imotekh is in reserve, that condition is still satisfied.

Nemesor Dave wrote:If Imotekh is in reserve, he has been "included in your army."

Just like if Imotekh is in a vehicle, in a building, or in ruins, in area terrain. The book doesn't have to give you allowance for every possibility. The rule gives the condition, and if Imotekh is in reserve, that condition is still satisfied.

Exactly.

This guy sorta likes to accuse others of his own problems, doesn't he.

Edit: I also don't think he groks that if "inclusion" explicitly gives you permission to roll, that's it. Game over. There are no other qualifications to meet.

That still does not override Imotekh needing to use his ability (as noted by the FaQ and the re-roll thing) to keep the night fighting going, one that can not be used whist in reserve, as you have no explicit permission to do so.

Nemesor Dave wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:

If Imotekh is in your army, the Night Fighting rules are automatically in play at the start of the game and thus the lightning bolts are triggered because the conditions have been met. It doesn't matter where or what Imotekh is doing at the start of the game because as long as he is in your army, the Night Fighting rules are automatically in play.

However, in subsequent turns, Imotekh must roll for to keep the Night Fighting rules in play. As Imotekh is not given explicit permission to make said rolls from reserves, he cannot keep the Night Fighting rules in play and the lightning bolts are not triggered.

Imotekh is not rolling even though the FAQ implies that he is. The Necron Codex says "you" are rolling and specifies when you have permission to do so: if nightfight is still in effect. Just like the Codex says "you" are rolling for lightning. It's not Imotekh rolling for lightning and unless it is FAQed, a chrono in Imotekhs unit will NOT allow a reroll of the lightning rolls.

A curious question has come up though that may influence you to see the point I am trying to make:

Can you roll for lightning if Imotekh is in reserve? "You" are rolling for the lightning just as "you" are rolling to continue nightfight.

I am not Nos, however neither Imotekh or you as the player have permission to roll for abilities while said model that allows those rolls in the first place is in reserves. It isn't about owning the roll, it is about needing explicit permission to make rolls for abilities by models in reserve. You have failed to point out that explicit permission in 9 pages and will continue to fail because it does not exist.

Brother Ramses wrote:I am not Nos, however neither Imotekh or you as the player have permission to roll for abilities while said model that allows those rolls in the first place is in reserves. It isn't about owning the roll, it is about needing explicit permission to make rolls for abilities by models in reserve. You have failed to point out that explicit permission in 9 pages and will continue to fail because it does not exist.

Brother Ramses, we've pointed it out dozens of times. Dave just two posts ago. It's an English comprehension problem. You're basically disagreeing on the definition of the word "is" here. (see Clinton tapes.) Specifically, you're simply not admitting that a broad allowance covers a narrow case.

Would you like to get a mod ruling on it? If not, we might just want to agree to disagree, this is getting repititous. I'd be in favor of bouncing it off them.

ps - did you mis-type back there or something? I thought we were getting somewhere, or at least you'd said something that you didn't understand the implications of.

edit: typo

Nemesor Dave wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:

Randall Turner wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:For the second part of the rule where you keep including,

"If your army includes Imotekh the Stormlord,...."

You are only being given explicit permission to extend the Night Fighting mission special rule. That is it.

That is correct. And THAT is what I wanted to hear from you! Thank you for playing, have a nice night.

Well we know from both this thread and the JotWW that you like to selectively edit/read the rules so they will only read what you want to hear. No surprise that you would do the same with a post. Interesting that neither you or Randall can actually quote the explicit permission to roll a d6 to extend Night Fighting rules while in reserve. You can sure quote the permission to roll a d6 if Imotekh is in your army, just not the permission to roll a d6 while in reserves.

If Imotekh is in reserve, he has been "included in your army."

Just like if Imotekh is in a vehicle, in a building, or in ruins, in area terrain. The book doesn't have to give you allowance for every possibility. The rule gives the condition, and if Imotekh is in reserve, that condition is still satisfied.

Except this is where you are wrong. The book DOES have to give you permission, that is why it is a permissive ruleset. The rule has to specifically allow you to do something. If it doesn't, then you can't. No wonder you take the stances that you do since you do not even understand the basic premise of a permissive ruleset. For your stance to be correct the rule would have to read as follows,

"If your army includes Imotekh the Stormlord, the Night Fighting rules automatically apply during the first game turn. Furthermore, you can attempt to keep the Night Fighting rules in play in subsequent game turns by rolling a D6 at the start of the turn. These rolls can be made while Imotekh is in reserve."

In a permissive rule set, you absolutely, 100% need the above emboldened text. It gives you explicit permission. Just having Imotekh in your army is enough to get to roll, but not enough to roll while Imotekh is in reserve.

Let's ask a mod who's an INAT member. You're pretty blatantly wrong, but if you stick on this, the conversation's over.

Edit: here you go. Another rule that's allowed from reserve that doesn't have the words "allowed from reserve" in it:

"While an astropath is alive, your opponents add 1 to their reserve roll." yadda yadda

Doesn't explicitly say "Works from reserve", qualifier is "while alive". Couple that work that way. You're saying these need *explicit* permission *with the word "reserve"* in it somewhere too?

Knock yourself out with a PM to a INAT mod. Page 16 of the INAT is where you will that that an ability needs to specify that it can work from reserves which rolling a d6 to keep Night Fighting rules in play does not have.

As I said, having Imotekh in your army is enough to allow the roll to keep Night Fighting rules in play. However is not enough to allow the roll to keep Night Fighting rules in play while Imotekh is in reserve.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Which is specific permission that is even supported by FAQ from both GW and INAT. Having Imotekh in your army is not specific permission. How about you go check the FAQ for Logan Grimnar and his High King rule?

Brother Ramses wrote:How about you go check the FAQ for Logan Grimnar and his High King rule?

How does Logan's ruling make your case stronger? His special rule was NOT allowed by codex wording, yet it WAS allowed from reserve in a FAQ. So? They allowed it in a FAQ, before that it shouldn't have been allowed from reserve. What exactly is your point?

Edit: you misunderstood re: mod - I'm not threatening to PM anyone, I'm suggesting we get one to come in here and arbitrate this specific question. (not Logan, inclusion.)

Randall Turner wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:How about you go check the FAQ for Logan Grimnar and his High King rule?

How does Logan's ruling make your case stronger? His special rule was NOT allowed by codex wording, yet it WAS allowed from reserve in a FAQ. So? They allowed it in a FAQ, before that it shouldn't have been allowed from reserve. What exactly is your point?

Edit: you misunderstood re: mod - I'm not threatening to PM anyone, I'm suggesting we get one to come in here and arbitrate this specific question. (not Logan, inclusion.)

The point being that until a FAQ was released, astropaths/masters of the fleet/Logan Grimnar were not allowed to use their abilitites from Reserve and until Imotekh is given the same treatment for, "If your army includes Imotekh the Stormlord...." then you are not allowed to use his abilities from reserve either.

Brother Ramses wrote:The point being that until a FAQ was released, astropaths/masters of the fleet/Logan Grimnar were not allowed to use their abilitites from Reserve and until Imotekh is given the same treatment for, "If your army includes Imotekh the Stormlord...." then you are not allowed to use his abilities from reserve either.

There was no wording for Logan's rule that allowed him to use his ability from reserve. The FAQ changed the ability. Straight up changed the special rule. The wording still doesn't allow that ability from reserve, it's only lifeline is the FAQ.

There was wording for the Astropath etc. that allowed them to use their ability from reserve. It may not have been universally ruled that way, but the FAQ clarified it. Now any special rule with similar wording is allowed to use that ability from reserve.

Get it? One ruling (Logan) made a single-ability exception. The other ("while alive") stated a standard for allowing abilities to be used from reserve. Quite a difference there.

Edit: check your PM re: mod arbitration, I am going to bed, kiddo.

As above.

BR and I dont agree on a number of things - however on this he is absolutely correct

Find *specific* *explicit* permission to roll a D6 while in reserve.

nosferatu1001 wrote:As above.

BR and I dont agree on a number of things - however on this he is absolutely correct

Find *specific* *explicit* permission to roll a D6 while in reserve.

A number of things is an understatement.

"If your army contains...", is not explicit permission to roll while in reserve. "If your army contains....", is just enough permission to do which is explicitly laid out in the rule. Nothing more then that, including rolling from reserve.


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Randall Turner wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:The point being that until a FAQ was released, astropaths/masters of the fleet/Logan Grimnar were not allowed to use their abilitites from Reserve and until Imotekh is given the same treatment for, "If your army includes Imotekh the Stormlord...." then you are not allowed to use his abilities from reserve either.

There was no wording for Logan's rule that allowed him to use his ability from reserve. The FAQ changed the ability. Straight up changed the special rule. The wording still doesn't allow that ability from reserve, it's only lifeline is the FAQ.

There was wording for the Astropath etc. that allowed them to use their ability from reserve. It may not have been universally ruled that way, but the FAQ clarified it. Now any special rule with similar wording is allowed to use that ability from reserve.

Get it? One ruling (Logan) made a single-ability exception. The other ("while alive") stated a standard for allowing abilities to be used from reserve. Quite a difference there.

Edit: check your PM re: mod arbitration, I am going to bed, kiddo.

Show me the FAQ that includes, "If the your army contains...", is a stated standard for allowing abilities to be used from reserve. Oh, that is right. You are only saying that it is a standard for allowing abilities to be used from reserve with absolutely no rules backing at all.

Brother Ramses wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:As above.

BR and I dont agree on a number of things - however on this he is absolutely correct

Find *specific* *explicit* permission to roll a D6 while in reserve.

A number of things is an understatement.

"If your army contains...", is not explicit permission to roll while in reserve. "If your army contains....", is just enough permission to do which is explicitly laid out in the rule. Nothing more then that, including rolling from reserve.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Randall Turner wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:The point being that until a FAQ was released, astropaths/masters of the fleet/Logan Grimnar were not allowed to use their abilitites from Reserve and until Imotekh is given the same treatment for, "If your army includes Imotekh the Stormlord...." then you are not allowed to use his abilities from reserve either.

There was no wording for Logan's rule that allowed him to use his ability from reserve. The FAQ changed the ability. Straight up changed the special rule. The wording still doesn't allow that ability from reserve, it's only lifeline is the FAQ.

There was wording for the Astropath etc. that allowed them to use their ability from reserve. It may not have been universally ruled that way, but the FAQ clarified it. Now any special rule with similar wording is allowed to use that ability from reserve.

Get it? One ruling (Logan) made a single-ability exception. The other ("while alive") stated a standard for allowing abilities to be used from reserve. Quite a difference there.

Edit: check your PM re: mod arbitration, I am going to bed, kiddo.

Show me the FAQ that includes, "If the your army contains...", is a stated standard for allowing abilities to be used from reserve. Oh, that is right. You are only saying that it is a standard for allowing abilities to be used from reserve with absolutely no rules backing at all.

1) Using an ability from reserve is not disallowed anywhere in the rules.
2) You are given permission by the rule "if your army includes...."
3) There is no rule specifically disallowing it.

If it were disallowed, then it would need specific permission for the ability to work from reserve, and I would agree with you. As there is no rule denying permission, and one giving a general permission - it is allowed.

Randall Turner wrote:Let's ask a mod who's an INAT member.

Just for the sake of clarity here, the INAT is really only relevant for those events that use it. It's an awesome resource for what it is, but it's not an authorative rules resource, and will often diverge from the printed rules (or from some players' interpretations of said printed rules) in favour of how people tend to play it, or what makes for (in the opinion of the INAT committee and their polling pool) a better game.

Any 'ruling' you get here from a Mod is nothing more than the opinion of that Mod. Some of us have been playing for a while, and so have a reasonable knowledge of the rules... but we have no special insight into the rules than any other poster has beyond that.



For what it's worth, I think it's fairly clear that the rule in question is supposed to work whether or not Imotekh is on the board at the time. But that's just my opinion based on the way the rule is written. I think there is a RAW argument to be made for it not working... but it's verging on the same sort of territory as denying Eldar vehicles their Flickershield saves, and I would be inclined to ignore it on the table.

Nemesor Dave wrote:1) Using an ability from reserve is not disallowed anywhere in the rules.
2) You are given permission by the rule "if your army includes...."
3) There is no rule specifically disallowing it.

If it were disallowed, then it would need specific permission for the ability to work from reserve, and I would agree with you. As there is no rule denying permission, and one giving a general permission - it is allowed.

By that line of thinking Psychic Communion works whilst in reserve. Or Gate of Inifnity.

Remember it is a permissive ruleset. It must say you can do something for it to be allowed. Therefore you may only enter play from reserves, and anything else specifically allowed, if you are in reserves.

It doesn't say I can't is not valid.