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hmm... does "snarky" mean, "doesn't agree with me"?

nosferatu1001 wrote:So, assuming you agree that the two sentences show separate abilities, one passive the other active, presumably you can now find ANY example anywhere of ANY active ability being used while in Reserve, where it hasnt been explicitly allowed?

Of course I don't agree to that. The "Lord of the Storm" ability is one single ability. (How many "abilities" do you read as being presented there? Just curious.) And I can find numerous examples of abilities with multiple, complex associated actions - they're still referred to as single abilities in the rules.

Regarding "the rules have been provided countless times in other threads" - what rules are you referring to? I've got every FAQ, codex, BRB errata, etc. at my fingertips here, provide a quote.

Randall Turner wrote:Of course I don't agree to that. The "Lord of the Storm" ability is one single ability. (How many "abilities" do you read as being presented there? Just curious.) And I can find numerous examples of abilities with multiple, complex associated actions - they're still referred to as single abilities in the rules.

Then I'd argue that if Imotekh is in Reserve, none of the ability works.
Cite the rule that allows the use of an active ability while in Reserve.

Either you split off the first part, or it's all one and none of it works.

And every single FAQ that involved Lord of the Storm referred to it as his ability. Just FYI. FAQs can change rules.

It's undecided until a further faq update addresses it.

The ability gives express permission to start at the beginning of the game sans any modifiers or caring about Imotekh's status beyond being in an army list. You aren't allowed to split up the ability into half active and half passive even though that makes the most sense, it is simply the 'lord of the storm' special rule.

The wording of the faq implies it is an owned active ability to continue the storm but it doesn't do anything but explicitly give permission to re-roll with a cryptek, it doesn't forbid Imotekh from using it no matter what what his status or location is, simply that he can't re-roll unless he's in a unit with a chronometron. It makes sense that he can't use an owned active ability if he's in reserves or dead, but that isn't a question the faq answers and a lack of other similar examples of active abilities being used from reserves does not forbid this active ability, which is part of a special rule given express permission to activate at the start of the game regardless of the special character's status or location.

If you're a TO I'd go with the active / passive split ruling, but there's no concrete argument to be made for or against it in RAW right now.

Randall - no, just your attitude so far is... irksome.

There is one special rule that has multiple abilities. One is active, the other passive.

Find allowance to roll dice for a model that is in Reserve. Until you can find permission to do so, you cannot. Argue all you like, you cannot alter that basic fact, and you will be unable to do so because it doesnt exist.

The existence or lack of other "active abilities" that function from reserve isn't relevent, particularly as the Necron codex contains a number of unique rules and particularly environmental abilities.

The use of a "while alive" ability from reserve is generally excepted from the "no abilities from reserve" rule, per quote my prev post.
The qualifier for "Lord of the Storm" ability is "inclusion of Imotekh", which is very similar to "while alive" and at least as broad.

And finally, the explicit mandate that the "Lord of the Storm" ability is active turn one, without qualifiers, as an explicit ability enabler reinforces the "while alive" analog.

Actinium, I wouldn't want to set a precedent by disallowing it in a tournament. Once again, it's a credibility thing - purely RAW, it's allowed, and I believe (as Nemesor Dave does) that it's also ROI consistent to allow it. That means subsequent FAQ's are liable to allow it.

hold on...

okay, we have Graeme Nicoll in the office here on other business, one of our producers suggested I simply email the question to him for forwarding to his rule guys. The YMDC tenets accept GW email responses as valid, perhaps we can get it resolved.

EDIT:

nosferatu1001 wrote:There is one special rule that has multiple abilities. One is active, the other passive.

ANY rule support for this assertion would be nice.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Find allowance to roll dice for a model that is in Reserve. Until you can find permission to do so, you cannot. Argue all you like, you cannot alter that basic fact, and you will be unable to do so because it doesnt exist.

Sure, Ez. Imotekh's "Lord of the Storm" ability, roll to-hit for lightning strikes on turn one. (Somehow I don't think that's going to make you happy.)

Randall Turner wrote:The YMDC tenets accept GW email responses as valid, perhaps we can get it resolved.

They actually don't. But have fun.

Seems like 3 people who already have opinions set in stone are trying to argue this out, and the only consensus is:

"Check with your group, decide for yourselves."

The arguement has probably been made, but I'm just curious:

How can the Stormlord have two abilities when the FAQ states not only that he can reroll with a chrono, but ALSO that he can roll on turn one?

Does it change from a passive to an active the moment the game starts? That seems really arbitrary to me, if the ability for the first turn is still the passive, then why can the stormlord roll for it at all? And if the ability for the first turn is the active, why can he roll for it from reserve?

As I read the FAQ it indirectly solves this argument... But maybe I'm missing some crazy detail? As I understand it Rulebook < Codex < FAQ.

EDIT: Just to clarify - I don't think it's two separate abilities, one active, one passive. I think it's related to the Stormlord becuase he brings it, and he's the focal point, but as long as he's "a part" of the army, the army gets it. Something in reserve is still part of the army. Something dead isn't. It's that simple to me.

Also - The only reason I can see for including in the FAQ "Q:Can you roll to check for night fighting on turn one" Is to make things clear in the case of an argument just like this. What other purpose would pointing this (A: Yes, you can) out on the FAQ serve?

Emails from Askyourquestion@games-workshop.com are technically official, but they are easily spoofed and should not be relied on.

As I'm posting in-clear, not anonymous, and I'll attribute any email response I get to the GW responder, I don't think the "spoofed" issue is, well, an issue.

E-mails are by and large jokes because they are notoriously unreliable and contradictory, not because they are possibly faked.

Randall Turner wrote:

Emails from Askyourquestion@games-workshop.com are technically official, but they are easily spoofed and should not be relied on.

As I'm posting in-clear, not anonymous, and I'll attribute any email response I get to the GW responder, I don't think the "spoofed" issue is, well, an issue.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Randall Turner
> Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 3:37 PM
> To: rigeld2
> Subject: LOLEMAILS
>
> Yes, emails are impossible to spoof.
> Even when not typing them on a forum, it's trivial to spoof a from address.
> Again, have fun.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Viti wrote:As I understand it Rulebook < Codex < FAQ.

False. Specific > General. Doesn't matter where the rules lie, it's always Specific > General.

Also - The only reason I can see for including in the FAQ "Q:Can you roll to check for night fighting on turn one" Is to make things clear in the case of an argument just like this. What other purpose would pointing this (A: Yes, you can) out on the FAQ serve?

I don't see that question/answer in the Necron FAQ - can you give me a page number?

The purpose of attribution is to allow independent verification. <sigh>

And the point about potential contradiction is well-taken, Actium, but let's cross that bridge when we get to it.

Edit: Deleted.

Anyone feel free to site the rule in the BrB that states units can't use abilities in reserve?

Permissive rule set; it's not what we "can't do" it's what we "can do"

Altimera wrote:Permissive rule set; it's not what we "can't do" it's what we "can do"

Fair enough. So if 'you' can roll to continue Night Fighting, then there must be a specific rule to stop you from doing so or denying such permissions. Hence why it was a question if GK could use Psychic Communion from reserve, question asked answered no. So until the question is answered by a GW FAQ with the answer, 'no you may not roll to continue night fighting' then you may as it is specifically allowed by the rules entry in the Necron Codex.

Active Vs. Passive are two made up classifications of abilities that are nowhere in RAW. You can't just decide - LoS works from reserve part of the time, but not all the time without a precise explanation in the codex or FAQ.

The FAQ says "his roll" simply to identify the roll coming from the LoS special rule which is Imotekhs special rule. It does not change RAW. The codex tells you what conditions are required to be allowed to reroll for night fight - "if nightfight is in play".

So this does not mean that the Nightfight is kept in play by Imotekh and the lightning does not come from Imotekh though it could be called "Imotekhs lightning" simply because it is caused by a special rule granted by including Imotekh in your army. The FAQ grants an additional ability under a specific circumstance. Nowhere does the FAQ take away any permission already granted by the codex.

As explained clearly in the codex the roll is granted if nightfight is in play -it is you who may roll to continue it.

INAT is great for HWYPI and that is the purpose of that document and has no relation to discussion based on RAW. INAT was never meant to be strictly based on RAW.

Randall Turner wrote:The purpose of attribution is to allow independent verification. <sigh>
.

Emails are pointless in this forum. Dont bother posting one, as anyone can post up another generic "yourquestions@GW" style email stating the opposite. The funny thing? Chances are it is probably real as well - theyre not the most consistent at answering questions. Any "ruling" you post will be ignored by everyone as not worth the pixels it has been displayed with.

The email does NOT go to the Studio. It is NOT authoritative. It does NOT have any binding force outside of the person who received the email and anyone they can persuade to listen to it, given it is in an entirely unverifiable form of communication. Official GE FAQs are what are required.

"sigh" back at you. You dont know what youre posting, and why theyre generally met with scorn, showing a naivety on your part.

Oh, and you dont get to prove an exception by using the case as an exception. Thats just a terrible way to argue.

Until there is a FAQ ALLOWING it to be used by Imotekh while in reserve, it cannot be used by Imotekh while in Reserve.

Lord of the Storm includes a big exception.

"If your army includes Imotekh the Stormlord..."

It says "includes" not "on the battlefield" or anything else. That's pretty good coverage.

I do not believe it is correct to split this exception away from later sentences. The very next sentence begins with "Furthermore," fancy-man speak for "and". The next paragraph begins with "In addition," also fancy-man speak for "and". Who the ability belongs to is irrelevant. If all that's required is for Imotekh to be in the army for the dice to be rolled, the dice get rolled and the storm goes on.

I do not think I am stretching any wording of the ability to allow this. It gives the exception at the beginning, covering every sentence afterwards. That's how exceptions work. You don't get to ignore it just because the text doesn't restate the exception every time the ability is further explained. Can you imagine what that would look like? Better yet, here you go:

"If your army inludes Imotekh the Stormlord, the Night Fighting rules automatically apply during the first game turn. If your army inludes Imotekh the Stormlord, you can attempt to keep the Night Fighting rules in play in subsequent game turns by rolling a D6 at the tart of the turn. If the result is greater than the turn number, and your army inludes Imotekh the Stormlord, the storm continues and the Night Fighting rules remain in play. If not, and your army inludes Imotekh the Stormlord, the Night Fighting rules cease to be in effect and are not used for the rest of the battle.

If your army inludes Imotekh the Stormlord, whilst the Night Fighting rules remain in play, roll a D6 for each unengaged enemy unit on the battlefield at the start of each Necron Shooting phase. On a roll of a 6, and your army inludes Imotekh the Stormlord, that unit is struck by a bolt of lightning and suffers D6 Strength 8, AP 5 hits (Vehicles are hit on their side armour). Note that Night Fighting rules broutght in to play by a Solar Pulse do not generate lighting even If your army inludes Imotekh the Stormlord."

Also, I'm inclined to believe that if Imotekh is killed (fails EL) or falls back off the board, Night Fighting should end. Your army doesn't include Imotekh if he's been killed or fled from it. It does include Imotekh if he's waiting in reserves or on the table. Just an aside with no relevance to the current discussion.

Fafnir13 wrote:
Also, I'm inclined to believe that if Imotekh is killed (fails EL) or falls back off the board, Night Fighting should end. Your army doesn't include Imotekh if he's been killed or fled from it. It does include Imotekh if he's waiting in reserves or on the table. Just an aside with no relevance to the current discussion.

Ah, actually, no, nightfight can be continued if nightfight is in play. Regardless of him being alive or dead.

Including Imotekh is the requirement for the LoS to begin.


[edit sorry, retraction!]

How is Imotekh rolling for night fight to continue if HE is dead?

There is no longer a HE to roll. Or are you ignoring the FAQ again?

nosferatu1001 wrote:How is Imotekh rolling for night fight to continue if HE is dead?

There is no longer a HE to roll. Or are you ignoring the FAQ again?

He is not rolling. We covered this already.

Ah, so you ARE ignoring the FAQ - thats the only way you can conclude that, when they say HE is rolling the actually he ISNT roling.

Good to know - anymore doublethink I need to know?

(You "covered" it by pretending the FAQ said something different to that which is actually said. About as blatant an attempt at diversion from the written fact as is possible to get, but I'm not hugely shocked)

nosferatu1001 wrote:Ah, so you ARE ignoring the FAQ - thats the only way you can conclude that, when they say HE is rolling the actually he ISNT roling.

Good to know - anymore doublethink I need to know?

(You "covered" it by pretending the FAQ said something different to that which is actually said. About as blatant an attempt at diversion from the written fact as is possible to get, but I'm not hugely shocked)

The FAQ does not say that he is rolling. The FAQ calls it his roll. This is implied, but that is not enough to change the RAW or the conditions for making that roll.

It depends how you interpret "If your army includes". I interpret it as anything deployed (on the table) or deployable (in reserves), but that isn't necessarily correct. Does anyone know of any similar rule or FAQ that might clarify what "If your army includes" is supposed to mean?

ND - lol, so its his roll but someone else performs the roll on his behalf? It is HIS roll because a) it says so and b) the chronometron cannot work without it.

Your attempts at wiggling out of clear wording stating the exact opposite of what you are caliming is a sight to behold.

Fafnir13 wrote:It depends how you interpret "If your army includes". I interpret it as anything deployed (on the table) or deployable (in reserves), but that isn't necessarily correct. Does anyone know of any similar rule or FAQ that might clarify what "If your army includes" is supposed to mean?

The phrase "if your army includes" is a substitute for "while alive", Fafnir, phraseology necessitated b/c Necrons aren't "alive".

Which of course places it into the most common exception for employing abilities from reserve: (emphasis mine)

RB.94B.01 – Q: Do special rules for models in Reserve affect the game?
A: Models in Reserve have no effect on the game except when they have an ability that specifies it applies while the model is in Reserve (e.g. ‘not in play’) or while ‘alive’. In addition, any ability used before the start of the game (e.g. during deployment, etc) applies regardless of whether the model is currently on the table or not [clarification]. Ref: IG.31A.02, IG.31C.01, TYR.34B.01, TYR.51C.01, TYR.56G.01,TYR.59B.03

Randall Turner wrote:The phrase "if your army includes" is a substitute for "while alive", Fafnir, phraseology necessitated b/c Necrons aren't "alive".

False. Surprise Attack! ability for Cato Sicarius says "An army that includes..." and Space Marines are very much alive.

In fact, all of the Chapter Tactics in SM state that if you include "X" in you are army, everyone with "Combat Tactics" replaces it with "Y". And as rigeld pointed out, Space Marines are very much alive.

All the above SM abilities apply with the owning character in reserve. All apply whether the owning model is alive or not.

Your main point here seems to be Imotekh's ability should continue after "death", for some value of death?

Edit: @rigeld - lol no it's just your logic fail. Look, guys -

"If (A) then (B)" in no way implies, "if (B) then (A)", ie,

if (model is not alive) then (don't use phrase "while alive") does not imply, if (don't use phrase "while alive") then (model is not alive).

What if Imotekh dies?

Order of events:
1) Nightfight is for the game turn.
2) Halfway through the opponents shooting phase Imotekh is killed.
3) Night fight is still for the game turn - the same as a tech priests bolster defenses is "for the duration of the game".

So nightfight doesn't end when he dies.

This is important because otherwise subsequent turns would fail because the rule requires nightfight to be in effect to continue it.

The reason it works if Imotekh is dead is because the rule defines how the rule works on all subsequent turns.
If your army includes Imotekh on turn one do X and on subsequent turns do Y.

At the start of the game the rule tells you what action there is first turn, and subsequent turns. The same as bolster defenses says it works for the entire game. The rule is part of the techmarines special rules, but it doesn't end when he dies.

On turn two, the way this rule acts is Y, because on turn one, Imotekh was included. The condition that allows the nightfight roll, is only that nightfight is still in effect.