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I have an FAQ that says CF is a CC attack, and a quote from the Tyranid codex that says HG is resolved "before any attacks are made". That'll have to do.

Randall Turner wrote:I have an FAQ that says CF is a CC attack, and a quote from the Tyranid codex that says HG is resolved "before any attacks are made". That'll have to do.

So you're also going to ignore that the game breaks if you treat CF as a CC attack instead of a power that causes wounds from a CC attack?
You're gong to ignore that CF vs CF using your interpretation means that only one can go off?

Have fun with that.

The logic for the second hinges on all "attacks" being "blows". Obvious fallacy.

The logic for the first I have no idea where you're getting, but I'm sure it's as full of holes, because my game isn't broken.

Randall Turner wrote:The logic for the second hinges on all "attacks" being "blows". Obvious fallacy.

Um. Why is that an obvious fallacy? They're equated in the rules. It was even posted in this thread. Perhaps you missed it?

The logic for the first I have no idea where you're getting, but I'm sure it's as full of holes, because my game isn't broken.

The FAQ says CF is a CC attack. Nothing says it is a psychic power. Therefore it isn't.
Do I need to keep spelling it out?

Then what are "blows" if not attacks?

Nothing negates the fact that HG stops attacks in the ENSUING combat.

CF does not go off in the ensuing combat, because it goes off before hand.

The BRB defines what attacks are (In Initiative order attacking with the # of attacks on your profile etc.) CF is before this process.

I read Luide's post regarding the equivalent use of "attack" and "blow" in the context of the BRB assault rules. The problem is that the same phraseology isn't followed in the GK codex and FAQ - CF is clearly stated to be an attack that precedes all blows. It cannot, therefore, be a blow itself. (Unless you want to relax the logical rules to allow for GW writing imprecision.) So, it follows that all attacks are NOT blows.

I didn't buy the "ensueing combat" argument at all. If CF is a CC attack, it goes off during CC - Close Combat - it's part of the ensueing combat. No breakage here.

Basically, by saying that CF is a CC attack, everything is covered. And that's what it says - very specific, specific overrides general (BRB phraseology laxity), and that's the ballgame.

Cool, no hooding or other psychic defense... It's a CC attack after all.

so then, lets make a whole new topic saying that according to you, I can cast CF 11 times without psychic tests (unless there is that HG thing)....

makes sense to me........

rigeld2 wrote:Cool, no hooding or other psychic defense... It's a CC attack after all.

I don't think that follows either. A psychic shooting attack is still a shooting attack, and still has to meet the psychic qualifiers. How does psychic CC attack differ? Are you saying that something can't be a psychic CC attack? That's the whole reason for GW's phraseology irregularity, I think. (I'm actually asking here why you're saying this, not being snarky, I don't understand your reasoning.)

...and I must go to a party. have fun!

I'm totally with Randall Turner on this (and Puma713 and all the rest). I have read all the rules and this thread and don't find the rules to be broken in the slightest. Did GW say that CF just counts towards combat resolution? Nope, they said it counts as close combat attacks. I can't see why GW would specify it counting as a combat attack (as opposed to a shooting attack) when they could have easily specified it is neither, like numerous other psychic abilities.

Well anyway, I just wanted put my 2 cents in, even though I'm sure I haven't convinced anyone to see things differently. I only wish Hypnotic Gaze could do something about those damned grenades!

Randall Turner wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:Cool, no hooding or other psychic defense... It's a CC attack after all.

I don't think that follows either. A psychic shooting attack is still a shooting attack, and still has to meet the psychic qualifiers. How does psychic CC attack differ? Are you saying that if something can't be a psychic CC attack? That's the whole reason for GW's phraseology irregularity, I think. (I'm actually asking here why you're saying this, not being snarky, I don't understand your reasoning.)

...and I must go to a party. have fun!

Because the FAQ asks if it's a shooting attack or a CC attack. The answer is that it's a CC attack.
The word psychic does not appear there. There's no rule definition for a psychic CC attack, unlike a PSA.

To say that the FAQ makes CF a close combat attack (instead of the wounds being caused by a CC attack) but silently adding the word "psychic" for no reason makes no sense.

And it breaks the game.

Not all attacks are blows, but all bows are attacks.

Just like all apples are fruit, but not all fruit are apples.

Randall Turner wrote:I didn't buy the "ensueing combat" argument at all. If CF is a CC attack, it goes off during CC - Close Combat - it's part of the ensueing combat. No breakage here.

CF states(If you missed it earlier) "Once the effects of CF have been resolved (and casualties removed), blows are struck as normal. Unsaved wounds caused by CF are counted as having been caused in close combat for all purposes." (GK Codex P.31)

Blows are attacks, as noted in CF's entry. and only the "Unsaved wounds caused by CF are counted as having been caused in close combat for all purposes"

That is why HG and CF go off before attacks are made.

That is why CF and HG are not a part of the ensuing combat.

And that is why they happen simultaneously.

DeathReaper wrote:

That is why CF and HG are not a part of the ensuing combat.

And that is why they happen simultaneously.

Let's back up for a minute and address the timing of the two actions before we get to the wording of their effects. It might help to break it down piece by piece. Before we even get to the "ensuing combat" part, we have to look at what conditions both of the actions have.

1.) Cleansing Flame must go off before other attacks. It is a close combat attack itself.
2.) Hypnotic Gaze must go off before other attacks. It is not an attack at all.

So, before we move on to if Hypnotic Gaze can even affect the results of Cleansing Flame (unsaved wounds, in this case), we must establish an understanding about the timing. Whether Hypnotic Gaze works on CF is irrelevant at this point - the simple fact is that Hypnotic Gaze must go off before Cleansing Flame, because Cleansing Flame is an attack, and one of the conditions of Hypnotic Gaze is that is goes before other attacks. Hypnotic Gaze is not an attack, so Cleansing Flame does not have the same condition to meet in regard to Hypnotic Gaze.

If we cannot meet at this point, there can be no further discussion, because we're only on the first line of each action. We can't discuss how the effects of the actions interact if we cannot discuss the logical timeline in which they are used.

That is irrelevant as CF is not a part of the ensuing combat.

Therefore HG has no effect on CF.

DeathReaper wrote:That is irrelevant as CF is not a part of the ensuing combat.

Therefore HG has no effect on CF.

You can't even address my point?

PUma - he HAS addressed your point.

HG stops attacks IN THE ENSUING COMBAT. Combat is defined as attacks made in Init Order. CF is outside of combat, because it happens outside of init order. CF is therefore not an attack in close combat, is not an attack in the ensuing close combat, and does not get affected by HG at all.

nosferatu1001 wrote:PUma - he HAS addressed your point.

HG stops attacks IN THE ENSUING COMBAT. Combat is defined as attacks made in Init Order. CF is outside of combat, because it happens outside of init order. CF is therefore not an attack in close combat, is not an attack in the ensuing close combat, and does not get affected by HG at all.

That did not address my point. Read my second to last post. I am not interested in discussing the effects of the powers yet. We must come to an agreement on the timing first. If we cannot even get past the first sentence of each power, then we have no hope of reaching an understanding further down the line.

He glazed over that entire post to tell me that HG doesn't work with CF, as did you. So, that is two people so far that have chosen not to address my point.

They both go off before any attacks are made, but after all assault moves.

The order you resolve them is is irrelevant. (The timing does not matter at all.)

Resolve HG first if you like, it still has no ability to stop CF.

DeathReaper wrote:They both go off before any attacks are made, but after all assault moves.

The order you resolve them is is irrelevant. (The timing does not matter at all.)

Thank you for addressing the point.

If your first sentence is true, then your second sentence cannot be true. If Hypnotic Gaze goes off before any attacks are made, then it must go before Cleansing Flame, even if it has no effect on Cleansing Flame. Since it must go off before any attacks are made, and Cleansing Flame is an attack, it must go off before Cleansing Flame, regardless of what happens next.

DeathReaper wrote:Resolve HG first if you like, it still has no ability to stop CF.

The point I'm trying to make is that "resolving it first if you like" is not an option. HG must be resolved first.

Can we agree on that, at least?


Edit: I am not trying to bait you or trap you here. This debate has a lot of moving parts. I am trying to find the wrench in the gears that is gumming up the works, so to speak. I am trying to boil down the argument by finding out what we agree on so that we can come to the point in the argument where we both understand on what we disagree and why.

Its the FAQ that is "gumming up the works, so to speak." because it takes a perfectly workable Psychic power and makes it a close combat attack, while not telling us that it still is a psychic power, so therefore it can not be a psychic power anymore. (though I am all for throwing out the FAQ because it is silly.)

We know CF goes off before any attacks are made, but therein lies the problem.

If CF goes off then a second unit with CF would never be able to use CF, and that is not the case.

So the FAQ, the way it is written, creates this intrinsic problem we have with CF.

However, in regards to HG and CF, the timing seems like HG would be cast, then you can cast CF. Then you can move onto the ensuing combat.

The timing is irrelevant though, as shown above. It does not matter.

puma713 wrote:
Hypnotic Gaze goes off before any attacks are made, then it must go before Cleansing Flame, even if it has no effect on Cleansing Flame. Since it must go off before any attacks are made, and Cleansing Flame is an attack, it must go off before Cleansing Flame, regardless of what happens next.

This is easy to prove to be false. Two units of purifiers (A and B) want to use CF on each other. According to your logic, only one of them can use CF in combat, as CF must be used before any attacks are made, and CF is an attack.
Which unit then can use its CF, A or B? You need to answer this question for your argument to be valid.
(Every argument for "they happen simultaneously/both can use it" will also work against the "HG must happen before CF" interpretation)

puma713 wrote:
The point I'm trying to make is that "resolving it first if you like" is not an option. HG must be resolved first.
Can we agree on that, at least?

No we can't. There's no requirement in RAW for HG to resolved first. Timing of activating both HG and CF are exactly same.
Reason why people stopped arguing with you what order they should be resolved in is because it was pointed out that it doesn't matter are they resolved a) simultaneously b) sequentially (in either order).

HG only affects the ensuing close combat (attacks in Init order) and CF has been fully resolved before we can get to that step. Therefore HG doesn't stop CF, even if your all other arguments were valid.

We have 3 timing options you can consider.
1) CF and HG resolved simultaneously. HG obviously cannot stop CF, CF works normally.
2) CF resolved before HG. HG obviously cannot stop CF, CF works normally.
3) HG resolved before CF. CF works normally anyway.
There isn't explicit RAW about which is correct, but number 1 has many precedents going for it and rest have none.

Also, the FAQ is really, really poorly written.
Like many others have pointed out, as the FAQ doesn't make any mention of psychic anywhere and rules don't recognise the term "Psychic Close Combat Attack".
So a direct, literal interpretation changes CF from being Psychic Power to Close Combat Attack.

So, since CF is a close combat attack, do I get to use it an extra time on the charge? What if I have two close-combat weapons, such as a power weapon and pistol, does that also allow an extra use of CF? More problems of CF being a CC attack.

The FAQ basically holds up a banana and asks is this an apple or an orange?

Luide wrote:This is easy to prove to be false. Two units of purifiers (A and B) want to use CF on each other. According to your logic, only one of them can use CF in combat, as CF must be used before any attacks are made, and CF is an attack.

It would be nice if the rule actually said that. But it doesn't, does it? Weasel much?

Also, the FAQ is really, really poorly written.

It's like four words, dude. How much can you f-up in four words? (sue me, I didn't actually count.)

Like many others have pointed out, as the FAQ doesn't make any mention of psychic anywhere and rules don't recognise the term "Psychic Close Combat Attack".
So a direct, literal interpretation changes CF from being Psychic Power to Close Combat Attack.

If they're mutually exclusive, maybe. But a reasonable person MIGHT infer that the attack is, oh, i dunno, maybe a psychic attack that's also a close combat attack? Is that such a stretch?

You play GK luide? how many times you see this coming up? You see the company you're keeping here? Credibility?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Happyjew wrote:So, since CF is a close combat attack, do I get to use it an extra time on the charge?

What you have to decide, happy dude, is whether you want to play 40k or some other game. The FAQ may or may not be consistent with your world view. It may or may not conflict with prior wording. But the fact is, FAQ's DO take precedence over previous rule verbiage. Live with this, or play some other game...

CF is a CC attack.

No gray area here. Deal with it. You want to interpret that as meaning you get another attack in a charge, put it up as a separate YMDC issue and we'll kick it around.

puma713 wrote:...the simple fact is that Hypnotic Gaze must go off before Cleansing Flame, because Cleansing Flame is an attack, and one of the conditions of Hypnotic Gaze is that is goes before other attacks. Hypnotic Gaze is not an attack, so Cleansing Flame does not have the same condition to meet in regard to Hypnotic Gaze.

You've said this what, a dozen times now? Still correct. Sorry for dragging you back into this, intent was to voice support for this interpretation, not get you re-invested into an argument with this cabal of stubborn... um... dudes.

DeathReaper wrote:Its the FAQ that is "gumming up the works, so to speak."

Dismissing it as mistaken or irrelevant is not an option, if you're playing the same game I am.

Happy is right - the FAQ holds up a banana and asks if it's an apple or an orange. Taking it at face value breaks the game.

Which means that the FAQ must be interpreted. And the most reasonable way to do that is that the wounds caused by CF count as caused by a CC attack.

I dont know why this is so hard for you guys,

CF is a closecombat attack? yes
HG goes before combat? yes
CF goes before? yes

the ONLY trouble here is WHEN these both go before combat, you cannot say HG (counts as) I12 and CF is I11, they go at the same time.... since it is rude to literally do them at the same time, you should let you opponent roll out the powers first.... this still is not giving up the others power.... its like 2 marine squads are fighting, we're both I4, but I let you roll all you attacks and I take my save, then its like you start saying I dont get to attack since the I4 step is over before I get to fight back....

puma713 wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:Resolve HG first if you like, it still has no ability to stop CF.

The point I'm trying to make is that "resolving it first if you like" is not an option. HG must be resolved first.

Can we agree on that, at least?

THIS is also part of the main problem, saying one MUST go first gets us no where..... it goes at the same time, but the courteous player allows the opponent to goes first (without it effect his rolls). why MUST HG be resolved first? because CF is a closecombat attack? and they have to be thrown as close as possible to closecombat? no. CF can go before HG for all the wording mean, but you would still be able to roll it even if it killed the broodlord off, because IT IS THE SAME TIME.

BewareOfTom wrote:
THIS is also part of the main problem, saying one MUST go first gets us no where..... it goes at the same time, but the courteous player allows the opponent to goes first (without it effect his rolls). why MUST HG be resolved first? because CF is a closecombat attack? and they have to be thrown as close as possible to closecombat? no. CF can go before HG for all the wording mean, but you would still be able to roll it even if it killed the broodlord off, because IT IS THE SAME TIME.

You know I can shout too, IT IS NOT AT THE SAME TIME

Let's take a look at both of them (just the timing aspect):

Hypnotic Gaze: must go off before attacks

Cleansing Flame: must go of before attacks

So in the vacuum it looks like they go at the same time, but now let's look at what each of them is:

Hypnotic Glaze: Ability

Cleansing Flame: Since the Faq, an attack.

So if we resolve it in this order:

Cleansing Flame (Does it go off before attacks?: Check)
Hypnotic Gaze (Does it go off before attacks?: Nope, as CF is an attack)

So we didn't follow the rules here!!

But if we do it like this:

Hypnotic Glaze (Does it go off before attacks?: Check)
Cleansing Flame (Does it go off before attacks?: Check)

I'm not arguing the effects just the timing.

And you've broken the game. Good job. Cleansing Flame the ability cannot be a CC attack because of other ramifications.
The wounds caused by Cleansing Flame count as being caused by CC attacks because of the FAQ.

Yes, by the literal RAW the game breaks. Just like Marneus Calgar and Eldrad not being able to attack in CC.

I'm done with this thread.

jgehunter wrote:But if we do it like this:

Hypnotic Glaze (Does it go off before attacks?: Check)
Cleansing Flame (Does it go off before attacks?: Check)

I'm not arguing the effects just the timing.

Tell me what happens when there are two units with CF assaulting a unit with a Broodlord.

Something like this maybe:

Hypnotic Glaze from Broodlord (Does it go off before attacks?: Check)
Cleansing Flame from unit 1 (Does it go off before attacks?: Check)
Cleansing Flame from unit 2 (Does it go off before attacks?: Nope, as CF is an attack)

Therein lies the problem with trying to put them in order.

if they go off simultaneously there is no issues at all, and no rules broken.

DeathReaper wrote:

if they go off simultaneously there is no issues at all, and no rules broken.

That's still not true, however. Both powers (including CF vs. CF) say "before attacks". So, they cannot be used simultaneously. It's case of Chicken vs. Egg. Meanwhile, if you use one CF before the other, then one of the two cannot be used and you're disallowing someone to use something that they're entitled to use.

So either way, the game breaks when you include CF vs. CF.

However, in this discussion, we're not talking about CF vs. CF. We're talking about CF vs. HG. We can still make these two function without breaking the game.

In a sequence HG would be cast, then all CF's would be resolved simultaneously. (This does not matter however, because once HG and CF are cast and resolved, we move to the ensuing combat.)