Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
2012/06/07 12:36:38
Subject: Kansas pastor calls on U.S. government to kill LGBT people
Melissia wrote:On the contrary, if he never makes amends, then it's rather hard to argue he's reformed.
But that's not a requirement of being reformed. The ways the word 'reform' could be used (that pertain to this discussion) are:
1 - the improvement or amendment of what is wrong, corrupt, unsatisfactory, etc.: social reform; spelling reform.
2 - to cause (a person) to abandon wrong or evil ways of life or conduct.
3 - to abandon evil conduct or error: The drunkard promised to reform.
(I just pulled these from dictionary.com)
Now, none of these make any mention of redressing past wrongs or making amends. Point 1 does mention the word 'amendment' but in that context it doesn't mean making reparations so much as simply changing something.
If a person wants to say they are reformed, they only need to address future actions, not past ones. It's "I'll never do it again" not "I'm sorry I did it"
It's harder to believe them if they aren't remorseful, but it's not strictly necessary. Think of someone like Keith Richards - He might not take drugs any more. Which would mean he's reformed. He doesn't also need to regret all the partying he did in his younger years.
"Did you ever notice how in the Bible, when ever God needed to punish someone, or make an example, or whenever God needed a killing, he sent an angel? Did you ever wonder what a creature like that must be like? A whole existence spent praising your God, but always with one wing dipped in blood. Would you ever really want to see an angel?"
2012/06/07 12:50:35
Subject: Kansas pastor calls on U.S. government to kill LGBT people
Hazardous Harry wrote:For example a medieval knight may join a monastic order, takes vows and change his behaviour of killing peasants and razing villages. But that alone does not atone for the peasants he has already killed, and the villages he has already razed.
Then how exactly has he reformed? He's just using the monastic order to escape from the consequences of his actions.
Reformation, by definition, only deals with future events. A murderer who never re-offends is reformed, even if he continues to crow about the deaths of his victims until his dying day.
It is about changing your ways, not making amends.
Bingo.
sebster wrote:
Orlanth wrote:Its a known fact that Aussies are genetically disposed towards crime, we intentionally set them up that way.
But only awesome crimes like bushranging and, if I understand the song correctly, sheep stealing and suicide.
2012/06/07 13:20:38
Subject: Kansas pastor calls on U.S. government to kill LGBT people
Kaldor wrote:Now, none of these make any mention of redressing past wrongs or making amends.
On the contrary, "abandoning evil conduct" very much involves making amends. Simply saying that you will never do it again does not change the fact that you are avoiding cleaning up all the gak you caused to hit the collective fans. You're still committing evil acts by avoiding making amends for past mistakes, especially in the context of this thread's discussion on Christianity's morals.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/06/07 13:25:23
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2012/06/07 13:25:08
Subject: Kansas pastor calls on U.S. government to kill LGBT people
Melissia wrote:I think that definition is overly specific, and perhaps a bit pointless. Because everyone is alien to everyone else by that definition.
well women are from venus, and men are from mars
But I say Unnatural is a better description for god. As god does not inhabit the natural universe.
But since god created the natural universe, doesn't that mean that the natural universe is an unnatural creation?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Melissia wrote:
Kaldor wrote:Now, none of these make any mention of redressing past wrongs or making amends.
On the contrary, "abandoning evil conduct" very much involves making amends. Simply saying that you will never do it again does not change the fact that you are avoiding cleaning up all the gak you caused to hit the collective fans.
"Abandoning evil conduct" involves ceasing the evil activities you were previously carrying on with. It does not necessarily entail repairing the damage already done.
Likewise, making reparations doesn't necessarily mean that the person is going to cease their evil conduct. This is why the two are different things.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/06/07 13:28:53
sebster wrote:
Orlanth wrote:Its a known fact that Aussies are genetically disposed towards crime, we intentionally set them up that way.
But only awesome crimes like bushranging and, if I understand the song correctly, sheep stealing and suicide.
2012/06/07 18:57:57
Subject: Kansas pastor calls on U.S. government to kill LGBT people
Kaldor wrote:Now, none of these make any mention of redressing past wrongs or making amends.
On the contrary, "abandoning evil conduct" very much involves making amends. Simply saying that you will never do it again does not change the fact that you are avoiding cleaning up all the gak you caused to hit the collective fans. You're still committing evil acts by avoiding making amends for past mistakes, especially in the context of this thread's discussion on Christianity's morals.
That word you keep using. I do not think it means what you think it means.
"Did you ever notice how in the Bible, when ever God needed to punish someone, or make an example, or whenever God needed a killing, he sent an angel? Did you ever wonder what a creature like that must be like? A whole existence spent praising your God, but always with one wing dipped in blood. Would you ever really want to see an angel?"
2012/06/07 19:10:52
Subject: Kansas pastor calls on U.S. government to kill LGBT people
Funny, I feel the exact same way about your misuse of the term.
Hazardous Harry wrote:"Abandoning evil conduct" involves ceasing the evil activities you were previously carrying on with. It does not necessarily entail repairing the damage already done.
Not doing so is, itself, evil conduct.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/06/07 19:11:38
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2012/06/08 01:30:51
Subject: Kansas pastor calls on U.S. government to kill LGBT people
Hazardous Harry wrote:"Abandoning evil conduct" involves ceasing the evil activities you were previously carrying on with. It does not necessarily entail repairing the damage already done.
Not doing so is, itself, evil conduct.
Perhaps, which is why repairing the damage you have done, absolving you of your wrongdoings, is about redemption. Reformation, as has been pointed out to you several times, is about the individual refraining from causing such damage in the future.
I'll try another example. Let's say a man robs an old lady.
Reformation: The man never robs anyone again (I believe this has to be his own choice, ie locking him up to prevent him from robbing anyone is not reformation).
Redemption: The man pays back the old lady, helping and assisting her to the extent that he has repaired any damage he might have done. This has absolutely no bearing on whether or not he robs anyone in the future.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/06/08 01:31:57
sebster wrote:
Orlanth wrote:Its a known fact that Aussies are genetically disposed towards crime, we intentionally set them up that way.
But only awesome crimes like bushranging and, if I understand the song correctly, sheep stealing and suicide.
2012/06/08 02:21:43
Subject: Kansas pastor calls on U.S. government to kill LGBT people
The centre of a massive brood chamber, heaving and pulsating.
If the real life Christian church took a more 40K approach to things (armoured nuns with bobs and guns, preachers with massive chainswords, power armoured knights with psychic powers so great even Daemons gak themselves with fear at them) I'd respect them a lot more.
Squigsquasher, resident ban magnet, White Knight, and general fethwit.
buddha wrote: I've decided that these GW is dead/dying threads that pop up every-week must be followers and cultists of nurgle perpetuating the need for decay. I therefore declare that that such threads are heresy and subject to exterminatus. So says the Inquisition!
2012/06/08 23:30:32
Subject: Kansas pastor calls on U.S. government to kill LGBT people
I really dislike this style or pacing or what have you of his preaching. He sounds like he's hyperventilating and I think I'm having a seizure; neither one of us wins. He's message is a good one though.
Also...ankh on the pulpit confuses brain.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/06/08 23:41:32
Avatar 720 wrote: You see, to Auston, everyone is a Death Star; there's only one way you can take it and that's through a small gap at the back.
Powder Burns wrote:what they need to make is a fullsize leatherman, like 14" long folded, with a bone saw, notches for bowstring, signaling flare, electrical hand crank generator, bolt cutters..
2012/06/08 23:42:41
Subject: Re:Kansas pastor calls on U.S. government to kill LGBT people
I really dislike this style or pacing or what have you of his preaching. He sounds like he's hyperventilating and I think I'm having a seizure; neither one of us wins. He's message is a good one though.
Also...ankh on the pulpit confuses brain.
I can understand that. Not a fan of that style either. My preacher is of the calm collected teaching kind.
