Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
jonolikespie wrote: The really funny part is that while GW are letting the grimdark leak out of 40k MLP has had some really dark stuff considering its about colourful ponies these last few seasons.
Last few seasons ? U sure ?
Spoiler:
S1E04 : Applejack's burnout.
S1E08 : First Applejack/Rarity War.
S1E09 : First occurence of racial segregation.
S1E10 : Ponyville is destroyed by Star Trek critters.
S1E12 : First Applejack/RainbowDash open conflict.
S1E17 : Fluttershy stare officially scares me.
S1E21 : More racial segregation. After the african-americans, the natives... S1E25 : Pinkie Pie going BASHIT INSANE. S2E1/2 : Q's in da place ! Anarchy rules, the princess drools. S2E3 : Damn, even the main protagonist is crazier than Gollum...
S2E10 : Spike's turn to destroy everything.
S2E11 : Clergy/Nobility/Third State conflicts. What a wonderful world !
S2E19 : That mean Fluttershy b**ch...
S2E20 : More Twilight's nevroses, and some epic mindfrak at the end...
S2E25/26 : Dopplegangers everywhere, assault on world leaders, kidnapping, mind control, interdimensional portals, WWIII, guerilla fighting and party cannons of mass destruction.
That was just the two very first seasons... S4 has some insane moments too, especially in the opening and the finale.
Spoiler:
Celestia going down and banishing her sister... All Twilight's books, all her memories, going POOF in a big Kamehameha...
Please don't tell me someone is actually seriously saying that MLP is more grimdark than 40K.
If they are, may I remind them of the Daemonculaba, AKA the sickest of sick fuckery in this or any other universe.
@Grey Templar: I do see your point about Bandai purely being a model company, however as I said they also have a lot of connections and good faith from other companies. Even if they didn't have rules-writing facilities, they'd be able to find someone who did. Also, from what I'm aware, Japanese tabletop games tend to be very tight and well written, although this is all just from anecdotal evidence.
Squigsquasher, resident ban magnet, White Knight, and general fethwit.
buddha wrote: I've decided that these GW is dead/dying threads that pop up every-week must be followers and cultists of nurgle perpetuating the need for decay. I therefore declare that that such threads are heresy and subject to exterminatus. So says the Inquisition!
Squigsquasher wrote: Please don't tell me someone is actually seriously saying that MLP is more grimdark than 40K.
Did anybody say that ?
I believe the individual I was quoting was saying just that.
Squigsquasher wrote: If they are, may I remind them of the Daemonculaba, AKA the sickest of sick fuckery in this or any other universe.
It's not grimdark, it's grimderp.
And that's precisely the problem with most 40k authors: sometimes, darkness needs a little bit more than just "let's put skulls everywhere".
>Daemonculaba
>Not grimdark
The damned thing is a warp-fueled birthing machine that uses the hideously deformed and augmented bodies of women as surrogate wombs, pumped with growth stimulants, hormones, steroids and other substances until they are basically large fleshy masses in constant screaming agony. A pubescent boy is then forcibly inserted into the bloated womb of this woman and left to be transformed into a Chaos Space Marine by her hellishly altered organs. Eventually he will be birthed out (usually by taring through the womb of the woman), either as a Chaos Space Marine minus skin, which needs to be grafted on post-birth, or as a hideous, nightmarishly twisted creature called an Unfleshed. IF the woman (if she can even be called that anymore) survives that, the process is repeated all over again. Oh, and she's fully conscious and in horrendous pain all the while.
If that isn't grimdark then I don't know what is.
As for the "Hurr, they put skulls on everything, it's grimderp, durr!" argument, 40K has ALWAYS been fairly grimderp- fairly intentionally so. Since rogue trader its tone could be described as a very 80s OTT black comedy with equal parts of hilariously ludicrous and horrifically disturbing, and everything between the two. That "grimderp" everyone complains about has been there since the days of Rogue Trader- and I have yet to see anyone who doesn't like Rogue Trader. Jokaero? Originally in Rogue Trader. Lord of Skulls/Battles? Originally in Rogue Trader. And both of these things looked a million times dafter in their original 80s pewter incarnations. The only difference is that when brought out from the days of the 80s and given new models with modern technology and decent sculpting, it shows how ridiculous the source material was; but that was intentional because it wasn't supposed to be taken overly seriously. If you'd brought the Lord of Skulls out in the 80s it would probably have been hailed as the most awesome model ever. And that I think is the direction that GW are taking with a lot of their stuff; they're having a throwback to a simpler, funnier time when nothing was taken too seriously and some of the silliest, most over the top ideas came out.
Although to be honest I find it hard to find any claim that 40K is "too grimderp" when the most gloriously grimderp thing of all time, the Orks (who I might add were originally based on British football hooligans I might add) are to this day one of the most beloved inventions in wargaming history- and rightfully so. I mean, do you seriously think they take the setting that seriously with a race like the Orks in it?
TL;DR: Yes, 40K is grimderp, but it has always been grimderp and that's not necessarily a bad thing, and it doesn't stop it from having genuinely nightmarish things in it.
Also, you have forgotten the most important rule. Skulls are like Dakka and spikes; you can never have enough.
Squigsquasher, resident ban magnet, White Knight, and general fethwit.
buddha wrote: I've decided that these GW is dead/dying threads that pop up every-week must be followers and cultists of nurgle perpetuating the need for decay. I therefore declare that that such threads are heresy and subject to exterminatus. So says the Inquisition!
The damned thing is a warp-fueled birthing machine that uses the hideously deformed and augmented bodies of women as surrogate wombs, pumped with growth stimulants, hormones, steroids and other substances until they are basically large fleshy masses in constant screaming agony. A pubescent boy is then forcibly inserted into the bloated womb of this woman and left to be transformed into a Chaos Space Marine by her hellishly altered organs. Eventually he will be birthed out (usually by taring through the womb of the woman), either as a Chaos Space Marine minus skin, which needs to be grafted on post-birth, or as a hideous, nightmarishly twisted creature called an Unfleshed. IF the woman (if she can even be called that anymore) survives that, the process is repeated all over again. Oh, and she's fully conscious and in horrendous pain all the while.
That's grim and all, but it's not quite as dark as this (from the official comics):
Squigsquasher wrote: Please don't tell me someone is actually seriously saying that MLP is more grimdark than 40K.
If they are, may I remind them of the Daemonculaba, AKA the sickest of sick fuckery in this or any other universe.
No one was saying MLP is darker than 40k, but my point was that MLP has actually had some (relativity) dark moments and they seem to be increasing as the show goes on and Hasbro aim at slightly older audiences while still keeping it a kids show.
On the other hand 40k has been getting less grimdark recently imo, or perhaps rather they are trying to keep it grimdark but the heroics of their big name heroes are seriously undermining that.
The Daemonculaba example you brought up as a matter of fact comes from (according to 40k lexicanum) a novel published in '04.
On the other hand I just flipped through the 6th ed chaos book from... I want to say late '11 and the first thing that jumped out at me after all the basics about the Horus Heresy and the legions was the little box of fluff about The Scourged, a chapter who's master hated killing innocents on the orders of the Inquisition and prayed to be able to tell when a man lies. Tzeentch granded his wish and they went rouge within days. So apparently there is a band of chaos marines out there who fell because they didn't like killing people or the fact that the Imperium is corrupt (in the non chaos sense)....
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/04 07:45:04
Fafnir wrote: Oh, I certainly vote with my dollar, but the problem is that that is not enough. The problem with the 'vote with your dollar' response is that it doesn't take into account why we're not buying the product. I want to enjoy 40k enough to buy back in. It was my introduction to traditional games, and there was a time when I enjoyed it very much. I want to buy 40k, but Gamesworkshop is doing their very best to push me away, and simply not buying their product won't tell them that.
Squigsquasher wrote: The damned thing is a warp-fueled birthing machine that uses the hideously deformed and augmented bodies of women as surrogate wombs, pumped with growth stimulants, hormones, steroids and other substances until they are basically large fleshy masses in constant screaming agony. A pubescent boy is then forcibly inserted into the bloated womb of this woman and left to be transformed into a Chaos Space Marine by her hellishly altered organs. Eventually he will be birthed out (usually by taring through the womb of the woman), either as a Chaos Space Marine minus skin, which needs to be grafted on post-birth, or as a hideous, nightmarishly twisted creature called an Unfleshed. IF the woman (if she can even be called that anymore) survives that, the process is repeated all over again. Oh, and she's fully conscious and in horrendous pain all the while.
If that isn't grimdark then I don't know what is.
That sounds like trying too hard. Failing at grimdark and hitting grimderp instead. It sounds like internet fanfic trying to be as grimdark as possible.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/04 09:51:35
Balance in pick up games? Two people, each with their own goals for the game, design half a board game on their own without knowing the layout of the board and hope it all works out. Good luck with that. The faster you can find like minded individuals who want the same things from the game as you, the better.
The damned thing is a warp-fueled birthing machine that uses the hideously deformed and augmented bodies of women as surrogate wombs, pumped with growth stimulants, hormones, steroids and other substances until they are basically large fleshy masses in constant screaming agony. A pubescent boy is then forcibly inserted into the bloated womb of this woman and left to be transformed into a Chaos Space Marine by her hellishly altered organs. Eventually he will be birthed out (usually by taring through the womb of the woman), either as a Chaos Space Marine minus skin, which needs to be grafted on post-birth, or as a hideous, nightmarishly twisted creature called an Unfleshed. IF the woman (if she can even be called that anymore) survives that, the process is repeated all over again. Oh, and she's fully conscious and in horrendous pain all the while.
If that isn't grimdark then I don't know what is.
Gross, maybe ? Really looks like a failed attempt from an emo teenager that wants to sound cool and edgy but is trying way to hard.
Squigsquasher wrote: As for the "Hurr, they put skulls on everything, it's grimderp, durr!" argument, 40K has ALWAYS been fairly grimderp- fairly intentionally so.
40k is not Rogue Trader. That's why the squats were removed from the universe : good material for RT, too goofy for 40k.
Rogue Trader was like a Monty Python movie. 40k is more like a Michael Bay movie. Either way is ok, but just stick to it, instead of trying to do everything and its opposite.
I find Goomba (from the Super Mario Bros movie) Space Marines that seem to be pretty popular with the fans these days rather goofy. No less so than biker dwarfs anyway.
MWHistorian wrote: It's a sad day for GW when it's compared to My Little Pony. And a sad day for the human race as well.
I'm not eve sure what I mean by that. I just feel an unquenchable feeling of loss.
I think it best if we just don't bring up MLP ever again.
Only because when comparing the storytelling abilities of GW and MLP, GW loses by a mile.
GW can't tell a story involving the deaths of millions with an ounce of the emotional or character depth that a story about a library burning down from a cartoon about multicolour ponies can.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/04 13:53:17
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
A Town Called Malus wrote: Only because when comparing the storytelling abilities of GW and MLP, GW loses by a mile.
GW can't tell a story involving the deaths of millions with an ounce of the emotional or character depth that a story about a library burning down from a cartoon about multicolour ponies can.
Well.. you are entitled to your opinion regarding that but I don't usually see too many complaints about the backstory and fluff when it comes to 40k. It's one of the main reasons people get immersed into the game honestly.
A Town Called Malus wrote: Only because when comparing the storytelling abilities of GW and MLP, GW loses by a mile.
GW can't tell a story involving the deaths of millions with an ounce of the emotional or character depth that a story about a library burning down from a cartoon about multicolour ponies can.
Well.. you are entitled to your opinion regarding that but I don't usually see too many complaints about the backstory and fluff when it comes to 40k. It's one of the main reasons people get immersed into the game honestly.
Apart from the majority of BL and HH books stink, and GW hasn't written anything good since the Dark Eldar codex?
That was true maybe 6-10 years ago, but now the background is a joke.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/04 15:33:18
Daba wrote: Apart from the majority of BL and HH books stink, and GW hasn't written anything good since the Dark Eldar codex?
That was true maybe 6-10 years ago, but now the background is a joke.
Is it? It's pretty much the same as it was back then. Maybe you've just been over-saturated with it to the point where you no longer appreciate it?
Over the years I've seen dozens of people with GW themed tattoos walking around. I haven't seen that with any PP games. People really do love the back story..
A Town Called Malus wrote: Only because when comparing the storytelling abilities of GW and MLP, GW loses by a mile.
GW can't tell a story involving the deaths of millions with an ounce of the emotional or character depth that a story about a library burning down from a cartoon about multicolour ponies can.
Well.. you are entitled to your opinion regarding that but I don't usually see too many complaints about the backstory and fluff when it comes to 40k. It's one of the main reasons people get immersed into the game honestly.
But the majority of that fluff was written years ago. Current GW has lost a lot of those creative people and started to take it's own story much too seriously, which has lead to stale and boring characters who lack any real character.
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
A Town Called Malus wrote: But the majority of that fluff was written years ago. Current GW has lost a lot of those creative people and started to take it's own story much too seriously, which has lead to stale and boring characters who lack any real character.
I liked the new necron stuff personally.. Same with the additions they made to the dark angels and blood angels. Overall, I can see your argument. I do prefer they don't just add fluff for the sake of adding something new though.
IE.. when the grey knights came out, I was blown away by that one story where they covered themselves in the blood of sisters of battle to protect themselves from daemons. That was so dumb.
IMO.. the bar is set high enough at this point that we could end up having a situation like star wars where the new additions cheapen the original product somewhat. episodes 1,2,3 were awful from the story telling perspective and that was with the same writer...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/04 16:22:29
MWHistorian wrote: It's a sad day for GW when it's compared to My Little Pony.
And a sad day for the human race as well.
I'm not eve sure what I mean by that. I just feel an unquenchable feeling of loss.
I think it best if we just don't bring up MLP ever again.
Only because when comparing the storytelling abilities of GW and MLP, GW loses by a mile.
GW can't tell a story involving the deaths of millions with an ounce of the emotional or character depth that a story about a library burning down from a cartoon about multicolour ponies can.
I'm pretty sure my comment wasn't coming down on the side of MLP being superior. Now that I think about it, I may have been going to opposite way.
A lot of GW's fluff is plain silly. (not in a good way.) The GW dex had fluff written by a 12 year old. Also, the fluff in the rulebooks and dexs haven't changed in a Loooong time. But still, the BL books and the HH books I find very entertaining. "A Thousand Sons" was one of the most tragic books I've ever read.
Also, check out my history blog: Minimum Wage Historian, a fun place to check out history that often falls between the couch cushions.
Daba wrote: I find Goomba (from the Super Mario Bros movie) Space Marines that seem to be pretty popular with the fans these days rather goofy. No less so than biker dwarfs anyway.
I didn't say I didn't like grimderp. Or the Squats.
"Too goofy for 40k" was Jervis' official stance on how and why the squats were removed from the game.
I'm fine with that, but grimdark/derp goes with that good old "Monty Python" goofy vibe. If one removes the latter because he wants to move on something more "cinematic", he should really consider removing the former too.
A Town Called Malus wrote: GW can't tell a story involving the deaths of millions with an ounce of the emotional or character depth that a story about a library burning down from a cartoon about multicolour ponies can.
+1.
Grimdark is quite fine in a silly setting, because too much is never too much.
In a serious setting, grimdark is much more difficult to handle, because it can easily been overdone and get caricatural, gross, or lead to Darkness-Induced Audience Apathy.
So, why the comparison between MLP and 40k ? Because Hasbro may not be the best company around, but these guys seem to be able to recognize a talented author whan they see one.
