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 d-usa wrote:
There was also the one very recently where the cop had what appeared to be a negligent discharge into the head of the guy in the car, although he really didn't have a reason to pull the gun to begin with.

Was that the university police officer?

 Frazzled wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
There was also the one very recently where the cop had what appeared to be a negligent discharge into the head of the guy in the car, although he really didn't have a reason to pull the gun to begin with.

Was that the university police officer?

I think so.

Claimed that he was being dragged by the car and had another officer back up his story, but the body cam showed that he wasn't dragged and captured what appeared to be a ND.

 cincydooley wrote:

 d-usa wrote:


I don't think anyone is denying that. The question is when do you cross the threshold from "he might be dangerous" to "he is dangerous" and at what point is the use of lethal force appropriate.

Sometime before getting pistol whipped with your own service weapon, I'd imagine.

But really, it's the unarmed part that the media is harping on. Like it makes you less of a threat, or less of a criminal.

I'm all for legally redefining the legal use of deadly force to include ANY physical threat, armed or unarmed, but the problem here is really equality. If a guy my size sucker punches me and I shoot him, as a civilian, I'm still going to jail for murder. Realistically, unless he's got 100 lbs on me, I'm still going to jail. A cop in the same situation? Oh, he's a hero.

That's really the problem here - cops are CIVILIANS and they should be held to the same rules. The incessant boot licking that is so prevalent in the US is permitting the ubiquity of no-knock warrants, murders, etc. by LEOs to go unpunished. And as long as it goes unpunished, it will continue.

 d-usa wrote:
There was also the one very recently where the cop had what appeared to be a negligent discharge into the head of the guy in the car, although he really didn't have a reason to pull the gun to begin with.

I included him. That's DuBose. It's in my backyard.

Frazz-- I don't really think anyone made that big a deal out of the guy that got shot in the back while running. It got some news time, everyone agreed that cop was a POS, and it was over.

I guess, and this should be obvious, it's the ones where people disagree that there's some discord.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
And as long as it goes unpunished, it will continue.

Of course bad acts should be punished. I'll stop at that before I drag this into anti-union territory

 d-usa wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
There was also the one very recently where the cop had what appeared to be a negligent discharge into the head of the guy in the car, although he really didn't have a reason to pull the gun to begin with.

Was that the university police officer?

I think so.

Claimed that he was being dragged by the car and had another officer back up his story, but the body cam showed that he wasn't dragged and captured what appeared to be a ND.

Yea thats it.

 d-usa wrote:

Claimed that he was being dragged by the car and had another officer back up his story, but the body cam showed that he wasn't dragged and captured what appeared to be a ND.

Like I said; I don't know what the body cam shows. Its a jumbled mess. People claim the car was moving. Others claim it wasn't. Its pretty impossible to see anything on the body cam video, IMO.

 cincydooley wrote:
Rice -- Brandished real looking firearm towards police.

This is not in fact what happened, so please stop repeating it.

Not even the police officer who pulled the trigger claims that he pointed it at them.

Ouze wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
Rice -- Brandished real looking firearm towards police.

This is not in fact what happened, so please stop repeating it.

Not even the police officer who pulled the trigger claims that he pointed it at them.

But if you stop repeating it, then you can't victim blame... and what's the fun in that.

As far as DuBose is concerned, I could find one article about him allegedly have marijuana in his car and it's unsurprisingly on Breitbert. Of course, the traffic stop and his shooting have nothing to do with him allegedly having drugs in his car, but let's go ahead and trot that out anyway.

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

As far as DuBose is concerned, I could find one article about him allegedly have marijuana in his car and it's unsurprisingly on Breitbert.

The first two results if you google "dubose" and "marijuana." Both local Cincinnati news stations.

http://www.wlwt.com/news/source-2-bags-of-marijuana-in-duboses-car-at-time-of-fatal-shooting/34533640
http://www.wcpo.com/news/local-news/hamilton-county/cincinnati/sam-dubose-ray-tensing-case-dubose-had-4-bags-1-jar-of-marijuana-in-his-car-when-tensing-stopped-him

Of course, the traffic stop and his shooting have nothing to do with him allegedly having drugs in his car, but let's go ahead and trot that out anyway.

You're right, they don't. They do, however, potentially inform Dubose's thought process when being pulled over. Neither of which means he should be dead.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ouze wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
Rice -- Brandished real looking firearm towards police.

This is not in fact what happened, so please stop repeating it.

Not even the police officer who pulled the trigger claims that he pointed it at them.

Brandished a real-looking firearm in public and had the police called on him, which did not justify him being shot. I said as much in the previous quote. You deleted that part.

 cincydooley wrote:
You're right, they don't. They do, however, potentially inform Dubose's thought process when being pulled over. Neither of which means he should be dead.

And yet, here you are listing it as a reason that DuBose was criminal and therefore "dangerous."

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
You're right, they don't. They do, however, potentially inform Dubose's thought process when being pulled over. Neither of which means he should be dead.

And yet, here you are listing it as a reason that DuBose was criminal and therefore "dangerous."

Looking back on that post, you're right, I worded it very poorly.

He was pulled over for not having his front license plate. He was shot. As I said before, I don't know what the video shows. I can't tell if the car is in motion before or after the shot.

The information I included certainly shows my bias in regards to that case. That's certainly fair to say.

 cincydooley wrote:

The information I included certainly shows my bias in regards to that case. That's certainly fair to say.

It's a good thing to see in yourself, and we re all affected by our biases. I know mine is fairly obvious.

And it is honestly one of those things that both sides do. That's how we end up with stories that include pictures of whoever died as precious innocent teenagers as well as stories focusing on what a criminal he was, even though neither of those things really have much impact on exactly what happened that lead to the shooting.

 cincydooley wrote:

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
You're right, they don't. They do, however, potentially inform Dubose's thought process when being pulled over. Neither of which means he should be dead.

And yet, here you are listing it as a reason that DuBose was criminal and therefore "dangerous."

Looking back on that post, you're right, I worded it very poorly.

He was pulled over for not having his front license plate. He was shot. As I said before, I don't know what the video shows. I can't tell if the car is in motion before or after the shot.

The information I included certainly shows my bias in regards to that case. That's certainly fair to say.

No worries, thanks for be honest.

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
No worries, thanks for be honest.

I'm certainly not in this camp that is seeing anything definitive from that video. To me, it's a jumbled mess of nothing. He didn't deserve to be shot, but he also wasn't a boy scout, and, again, I think the drugs in his car probably influenced his interaction with the LEO. None of which changes the fact that, although I'm all for body cams, I just can't tell anything valuable from it here like others seem to be able to.

What I can say is that I think the prosecutor and mayor have handled the situation poorly, but I understand why they've handled it like they have. Last thing we need are riots again.

ANYWAYS-- the key to any of this is reform in the accountability of police officers nationwide. Sadly, I think that reform really does have to start with police union reform before we can make meaningful reform in how we hold LEOs accountable for their actions.

 cincydooley wrote:

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
No worries, thanks for be honest.

I'm certainly not in this camp that is seeing anything definitive from that video. To me, it's a jumbled mess of nothing. He didn't deserve to be shot, but he also wasn't a boy scout, and, again, I think the drugs in his car probably influenced his interaction with the LEO. None of which changes the fact that, although I'm all for body cams, I just can't tell anything valuable from it here like others seem to be able to.

What I can say is that I think the prosecutor and mayor have handled the situation poorly, but I understand why they've handled it like they have. Last thing we need are riots again.

You know, it's almost if the real world is actually shades of grey instead of black and white... but, you know what they say:



As far as the body cam footage goes, the thing to note is the position of Tensing's SUV when the shot is fired and his position in relation to the silver vehicle in front of DuBose when the stop is initiated. He definitely moved, but it appears to be more because he fatally shot DuBose in the head a couple of seconds after he drew his weapon, causing DuBose to go limp and allow the car to roll down the hill. As the car went out of control and picked up speed, Tensing was unable to to continue to hold on to the door and tumbled to the ground.

I am not a fan of LEO vs civillian because in fact,with the exception of federal police, all other LEOs are civillians. They should be held to the same standard. However if a police officer has to second guess his training there is something wrong. I can't tell you how many times I let the bad guy shoot first, simply because I didn't want to have to deal with the fact that I might go to jail like that lieutenant did who killed the combatants calling for fire on them.

There has to be a point that people understand it is not ok to hit, kick, attempt to take the weapon of an officer. In those instances force should be used. There should be an escalation of force, but force is perfectly acceptable. I am not a fan of tazers however in many instances they save lives. If you attempt such nonsense, and no tazer is issued, you are taking your life into your own hands. Individual responsibility applies to the LEO and the person in the situation. There are rarely victims in life. Learning that makes you a healthier, more functional member of society.

Ouze wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
Rice -- Brandished real looking firearm towards police.

This is not in fact what happened, so please stop repeating it.

Not even the police officer who pulled the trigger claims that he pointed it at them.

No, but made a movement towards the gun like he was attempting to draw it. That is a threatening move.

You don't wait till someone brings the gun up and is actually pointing it at you. You drop them before they can get the gun out.

 Grey Templar wrote:

Ouze wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
Rice -- Brandished real looking firearm towards police.

This is not in fact what happened, so please stop repeating it.

Not even the police officer who pulled the trigger claims that he pointed it at them.

No, but made a movement towards the gun like he was attempting to draw it. That is a threatening move.

You don't wait till someone brings the gun up and is actually pointing it at you. You drop them before they can get the gun out.

They gave Rice something like two seconds once arriving on the scene before opening fire, let alone issuing orders. The human mind generally doesn't react that quickly in such situations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Tamir_Rice
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/27/us/video-shows-cleveland-officer-shot-tamir-rice-2-seconds-after-pulling-up-next-to-him.html?_r=0
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-30220700
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-partisan/wp/2015/03/02/its-tamir-rices-fault/

Which is why I said it was a bad shoot.

That and how closely they drove up on him.

And the shooter, based on his previous evals, was most likely unfit to be a cop.

 Psienesis wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

Ouze wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
Rice -- Brandished real looking firearm towards police.

This is not in fact what happened, so please stop repeating it.

Not even the police officer who pulled the trigger claims that he pointed it at them.

No, but made a movement towards the gun like he was attempting to draw it. That is a threatening move.

You don't wait till someone brings the gun up and is actually pointing it at you. You drop them before they can get the gun out.

They gave Rice something like two seconds once arriving on the scene before opening fire, let alone issuing orders. The human mind generally doesn't react that quickly in such situations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Tamir_Rice
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/27/us/video-shows-cleveland-officer-shot-tamir-rice-2-seconds-after-pulling-up-next-to-him.html?_r=0
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-30220700
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-partisan/wp/2015/03/02/its-tamir-rices-fault/

Even if he didn't hear the command, you don't reach for a gun when the cops are pulling up. Its not they magically appeared right next to him. He most certainly saw them approaching and knew what was up. A smart person doesn't reach for the gun(fake or not) when that is happening.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Even if he didn't hear the command, you don't reach for a gun when the cops are pulling up. Its not they magically appeared right next to him. He most certainly saw them approaching and knew what was up. A smart person doesn't reach for the gun(fake or not) when that is happening.

I would like to say that it's utterly surprising that the guy who vehemently defends all life as precious is equally quick to blame the shooting death of a 12 year old boy on that same 12 year old boy, going so far as to say he "wasn't smart."



Then I realized that this is Dakka and that would be impossible.

Your life may be precious, but that doesn't preclude you being the cause of your own demise. And this is fairly clear cut. Don't do stupid things that will get you killed.

Don't jump in front of a bus, don't jump into a pen full of lions, don't pull or attempt to pull a gun on police officers, etc... All are on the same level of stupidity.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Your life may be precious, but that doesn't preclude you being the cause of your own demise. And this is fairly clear cut. Don't do stupid things that will get you killed.

Don't jump in front of a bus, don't jump into a pen full of lions, don't pull or attempt to pull a gun on police officers, etc... All are on the same level of stupidity.

Hey man, whatever helps you sleep at night.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Your life may be precious, but that doesn't preclude you being the cause of your own demise. And this is fairly clear cut. Don't do stupid things that will get you killed.

Don't jump in front of a bus, don't jump into a pen full of lions, don't pull or attempt to pull a gun on police officers, etc... All are on the same level of stupidity.

The same could be said of cops who kick the doors of innocent, gun owning Americans.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Your life may be precious, but that doesn't preclude you being the cause of your own demise. And this is fairly clear cut. Don't do stupid things that will get you killed.

Don't jump in front of a bus, don't jump into a pen full of lions, don't pull or attempt to pull a gun on police officers, etc... All are on the same level of stupidity.

The same could be said of cops who kick the doors of innocent, gun owning Americans.

Indeed. Although in that case its the fault of whoever doubled checked where they were supposed to go with a erroneous location, which isn't necessarily the Cop kicking in the door. Thats just an all around gak sandwitch. Police definitely need to double and triple check they're entering the right location.

 Grey Templar wrote:

Ouze wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
Rice -- Brandished real looking firearm towards police.

This is not in fact what happened, so please stop repeating it.

Not even the police officer who pulled the trigger claims that he pointed it at them.

No, but made a movement towards the gun like he was attempting to draw it. That is a threatening move.

Now we're having a different argument. This is known as "moving the goalposts".

Much was made over the fact that the BB gun didn't have the required orange plug. That is true. What is also true is that the police officer had no idea it was missing said orange plug, because that part of the BB gun was not visible to the police on the scene.

This nicely brings us back on topic: as Polonius said, there are many police shootings, but only a few draw public outrage, and one of the elements of the ones that do draw outrage, is, among other things, the post hoc shifting of blame onto the victim. Another is when the police are proved to have lied extensively about their actions, as again happened here: the police officer claimed he warned him to put his hands up 3 times, but not only did not a single witness hear a single warning, the tape timeframe clearly indicates this is not possible. And so on, and so forth.

Much has been made of the idea in this and other threads that due to increased media scrutiny, the police are now hesitant to use lethal force for fear of possible prosecution (like that's a bad thing) while people seem to be intentionally missing the point that it was a string of bad shoots that led to the current media attention. Dakka's gonna do what Dakka's gonna do, I guess.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

Ouze wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
Rice -- Brandished real looking firearm towards police.

This is not in fact what happened, so please stop repeating it.

Not even the police officer who pulled the trigger claims that he pointed it at them.

No, but made a movement towards the gun like he was attempting to draw it. That is a threatening move.

You don't wait till someone brings the gun up and is actually pointing it at you. You drop them before they can get the gun out.

They gave Rice something like two seconds once arriving on the scene before opening fire, let alone issuing orders. The human mind generally doesn't react that quickly in such situations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Tamir_Rice
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/27/us/video-shows-cleveland-officer-shot-tamir-rice-2-seconds-after-pulling-up-next-to-him.html?_r=0
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-30220700
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-partisan/wp/2015/03/02/its-tamir-rices-fault/

Even if he didn't hear the command, you don't reach for a gun when the cops are pulling up. Its not they magically appeared right next to him. He most certainly saw them approaching and knew what was up. A smart person doesn't reach for the gun(fake or not) when that is happening.

He didn't reach for a gun, he was a 12 year old boy with a toy and, according to reports? No, he didn't see them approaching, they drove right up to him, one cop jumped out and shot him.

More than reports. The video shows them racing up and shooting him before the car even stops moving.

 Psienesis wrote:


He didn't reach for a gun, he was a 12 year old boy with a toy and, according to reports? No, he didn't see them approaching, they drove right up to him, one cop jumped out and shot him.

As far as the Cops knew, it was a real gun.

And there is no way you don't notice multiple cars driving up behind you. He would have had to have been deaf and blind not to notice what was going on. Especially considering the behavior that got the cops called in the first place.

Did they get a little too close? Yeah. But that doesn't make them the ones at fault here.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:


He didn't reach for a gun, he was a 12 year old boy with a toy and, according to reports? No, he didn't see them approaching, they drove right up to him, one cop jumped out and shot him.

As far as the Cops knew, it was a real gun.

And there is no way you don't notice multiple cars driving up behind you. He would have had to have been deaf and blind not to notice what was going on. Especially considering the behavior that got the cops called in the first place.

Clearly you don't remember being 12 years old. I was a total blithering idiot, unaware of just about everything (and not caring about most of what I was aware of) when I was 12 years old. I totally remember playing with toy guns as a kid and not paying any attention to cars, I almost got hit by a car doing exactly that as an idiot kid.

From the behavior of other 12 year olds I've had to bear the company of lately, I don't gather much has changed.