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Bharring wrote:
Ork Boys
Dire Avengers

Dire Avengers are actually good, they are just overshadowed by the amazingness that is scat bikes. Why have polished opal when you can have rubies?
Dire avengers are fast. In a pale host formation, they are moving 12" every turn, thus have an effective range of 30" with their guns. Their shuriken cats, unlike bolters, can do real work with Assault 2 bladestorm. They come with a BS2 to overwatch or stubborn and counter-attack in assault. They get access to an exarch, a character that makes marine sergeants cry themselves to sleep at night.

Ork boys are still 6 points a pop, making them the cheapest T4 troops you can buy. Sure, they might not do much damage, but for 600 points you can still throw 100 of the damn things on the table. I cannot tell you how many times I've had orks go to ground and just make it difficult to shift them off objectives. I might kill 20 in a turn, but that's just not enough.
The problem with the ork codex does not like in the 6 point boy. It lies in the lack of support the boys have.

 koooaei wrote:
Tac marines are pretty damn good for the miniscule price you pay. They can kick ass to any other troop in the game point-to-point. And they have no ld problems.

And what's better, free + 1 bs or a freaking razorback.

From my experience, +1 bs

Mass tactical armies can easilly win games due to many factors.

They can also lose easily due to many factors, you know, like Scatbikes, Fire Warriors, etc.

Yep, they're not overly killy but they do the job.

What job? I have never had a Tactical squad kill more points than they are worth. They suck at capping objectives and they can't out shoot a whole lot.

Other troops need so much investment to even do something on the table. There are a few exceptions ofc. Ork boyz can be effective from time to time. Conscripts are the best tarpit in the game.

Lets say we maximize the potential of the Tactical Squad in a GSF. Each squad is 10 men strong and there is a Grav gun, Grav cannon and combi grav. That's 130 extra points per squad. You will pay 1200 points just for Optimized Tacticals in a GSF. That's a huge investment.

But marines are rock solid for just 14 pts for what they get.

I would say paper thin when they don't even have a solid role. And for 14 points you get ATSKNF which will keep them on the table after they lose huge swathes of their squad.

Why don't you try other armie's options before complaining about tacticals and "bad" rhinos?

I have and Rhinos and Tacticals are still bad.

Try playing Guard Tactical_Spam. Trust me, you will soon be longing for those Tacticals.

A Tactical Marine is tough, he has an amazing armour save, decent firepower, the ability to ignore routing, affordable support/buffer units and well priced weapon upgrades. Oh, and even as he is he is a threat to tanks.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Try playing Guard Tactical_Spam. Trust me, you will soon be longing for those Tacticals.

I have guard and I am more satisfied in my ability to field more dudes who have better dakka.

A Tactical Marine is tough, he has an amazing armour save,

T4 +3Sv is weak in 7E. Quantity over Quality

decent firepower

S4 24" is quickly out ranked by Tau, who have longer range, better S and can get more shots, and Necrons, who can auto glance everything. Considering these two armies are the only other ones in my meta, SM have awful shooting.

the ability to ignore routing,

Considering the only reason they take it in the first place is because they die in droves.

affordable support/buffer units

Tacticals are the support units, without a doubt.

and well priced weapon upgrades.

But I can only get 1 special weapon and one heavy, which defeats the purpose of making those guns decently priced.

Oh, and even as he is he is a threat to tanks.

Are you playing Codex: Tactical Marines with Traditio again? Tactical Marines are the last thing I send after a tank.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Try playing Guard Tactical_Spam. Trust me, you will soon be longing for those Tacticals.

A Tactical Marine is tough, he has an amazing armour save, decent firepower, the ability to ignore routing, affordable support/buffer units and well priced weapon upgrades. Oh, and even as he is he is a threat to tanks.

I think vets are among the best troops in the game. They can be kitted out to perform literally any roll and they do it for pretty cheap. They need chimeras to work but when you do this but at least you are getting something for those points. 3 specials and a heavy weapon at bs 4 in a 12 av front vehicle that has 2 decent heavy weapons of it's own? This is a bargain. Most elites cost more and have less damage output.

Or you can just take 2 platoons put out a horde of models and guns for like under 300 points. Who cares if they die? They'll do their job every time - absorb fire - hold objectives - hurt what they are supposed to hurt. Stickem in cover and you are only rolling -1 save compared to a marine - if they are getting a save at all.

A tactical on the other hand is removed just as easily a a 10 man gard squad with most the weapons in the game- costs way more - has less firepower to boot. Tacticals are garbage.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

Bharring wrote:
I think we're up to maybe 3? Hardly a couple dozen...

2 dozen excluding those 3
Scouts
Tactical Marines
Crusaders
Grey Hunters
Blood Claws
Grey Knight Strike Squads
CSM
Cultists
Chosen
Possessed
Daemonettes
Plague bearers
Nurglings
Pink Horrors
Bloodletters
Wyches
Kabalites
Guardians
Dire Avengers
Harlequin troupes
Breacher Squads
Necron Immortals
Ork boyz
Grots

You forgot the Tyranid troop choices.....I mean how could you forget the absolute awesomeness that are Warriors, Hormagaunts, Termagants, Genestealers and Ripper Swarms! I mean look at that list and quake with fear..............or laughter..........probably laughter.............

 master of ordinance wrote:
Try playing Guard Tactical_Spam. Trust me, you will soon be longing for those Tacticals.

A Tactical Marine is tough, he has an amazing armour save, decent firepower, the ability to ignore routing, affordable support/buffer units and well priced weapon upgrades. Oh, and even as he is he is a threat to tanks.

Been there, done that. I didn't miss them at all. It would be even more true in 7th. Guardsmen are actually more durable/pt against the dreaded scatterlaser, and they are more durable in any kind of cover against any S6+.

I doubt anything said here is going to shift you from your opinion, but I will post a reply for the lurkers who read these forums.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
From my experience, +1 bs

You should look at the mathhammer. The answer is you get roughly a 25% increase in DPS (damage per shot) with BS 5 vs 4.
How much of an increase does the razorback give you in a 5 man squad? It depends on the weapon and the target you are shooting at.
The other consideration is that the RB gives ablative armor, and another objective secured model.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
I have never had a Tactical squad kill more points than they are worth.

That is not their job. Their job is to win the game through points, not to kill models.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
Lets say we maximize the potential of the Tactical Squad in a GSF. Each squad is 10 men strong and there is a Grav gun, Grav cannon and combi grav. That's 130 extra points per squad. You will pay 1200 points just for Optimized Tacticals in a GSF. That's a huge investment.

That's a horrible way to 'maximize' the squads. You should be running 5 man squads with 1 grav gun to maximize the number of free razorbacks you get.

But Marines are more durable per pt against SLs than almost every other troop choice in the game.

Sure, horde troops (Gaunts, Necron Warriors, Guardsmen) are a little more points efficient.

But what about:
Kalabites
Wyches
Fire Warriors
Breachers
Storm Guardians
Guardian Defenders
dire Avengers
Rangers
CWE Bikes (OP, know)
Scouts
Harlequins
Corsairs
PAGK
Genestealers
...

All those (and more) lose more pts/shot from Scatter Lasers than SM. So a few troops that specialize in being dirt cheap/wound losing a few less pts/shot from Scatter Lasers certainly doesn't put Tacs near the bottom of the list.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, that BS+1 is going to do oh so much as your five guys face off with a *FREE RAZORBACK* the other guy gets instead. How much does that BS help you when even a TLHB will wipe the floor with the unit from across the board?
3x(8/9)(5/6)(1) is about 2 dead of 5 DAs first turn. Without the Tacs even stepping out.

The rebuttle? Run like scared little children from a light transport. Because even at BS5, they still can't touch anything but rear armor on a Razorback/Rhino.

Or the SM take a pod instead. Now they get the Alpha, and get it in RF range. SM win, even without counting the AV12 turret claiming the objective that the DAs cannot hurt in any way.

So that +1 BS is quite pointless either compared to or against any SM squad with their free transport.

I'd say every unit you listed except scatbikes and DA are also bad. Maybe not scouts, but only because they can get a Storm now. Just because other things are bad doesn't make tacs any less terrible.

Beside Scatterbikes and maybe Space Marine bikes and necron warriors, pretty much all troop choices are well balanced against one another. They all are pretty poor and almost all competitive player complains about their perticular troop choice incapacity to carry big play in their game. Tactical Marines are pretty good when it come to troops, but troops suck in most competitive environment where bigger is better.

Depends on the definition of "Bad".

If "Bad" is "Can't beat ScatterBikes", yeah, Tacs are bad.
If "Bad" is can't do reasonably at tournaments, then it is hotly debated, but clearly they have done reasonably (top at LVO).
If "Bad" is even bottom half of choices in their category (Troops), then clearly they aren't so "Bad".

The problem is, outside of a Gladius detachment, Tacticals are at best a throw-away Alpha Strike unit because Drop Pods exist.
Certainly not a 'great' use of your basic Troops option, but definitely not anywhere near the bottom rung when things like Gaunts, Wyches, Possessed, CSM's, et all still exist.

However, when taken within the confines of a Gladius detachment, Tacticals become borderline OP in the sense that they're far too cheap due to the 'free' transport they automatically bring with them.

The game itself is much, much less about simply killing everything in sight. Objectives are a far greater part of actual gameplay, especially in most Tournaments nowadays, and in this context, Tacticals are amongst the best Troops in game!
There's just too much super cheap Obsec targets to kill when playing against an optimised GSF, especially in timed events. Just because the very shootiest armies in the game can maaaaaybe manage to chew through enough to edge out the Marines, doesn't mean the list is mediocre or remotely 'fair'.
It's just able to exploit the game on the same level as the other top dogs.

Unfortunately, the game is more than just the top 5 "Tournament" dominating armies. And outside of optimised lists, (and even for certain armies with optimised lists), the Gladius is well aged gouda, right up there with SmEldar & ChTauder.

Durability/pt on tacs also drops precipitously when you start trying to make them do something.

The fact that DA can engage MCs with no additional points expenditure makes them a better value to me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Experiment 626 wrote:
The problem is, outside of a Gladius detachment, Tacticals are at best a throw-away Alpha Strike unit because Drop Pods exist.
Certainly not a 'great' use of your basic Troops option, but definitely not anywhere near the bottom rung when things like Gaunts, Wyches, Possessed, CSM's, et all still exist.

However, when taken within the confines of a Gladius detachment, Tacticals become borderline OP in the sense that they're far too cheap due to the 'free' transport they automatically bring with them.

The game itself is much, much less about simply killing everything in sight. Objectives are a far greater part of actual gameplay, especially in most Tournaments nowadays, and in this context, Tacticals are amongst the best Troops in game!
There's just too much super cheap Obsec targets to kill when playing against an optimised GSF, especially in timed events. Just because the very shootiest armies in the game can maaaaaybe manage to chew through enough to edge out the Marines, doesn't mean the list is mediocre or remotely 'fair'.
It's just able to exploit the game on the same level as the other top dogs.

Unfortunately, the game is more than just the top 5 "Tournament" dominating armies. And outside of optimised lists, (and even for certain armies with optimised lists), the Gladius is well aged gouda, right up there with SmEldar & ChTauder.

Just what I said. Tacs aren't good. Gladius is good. Tacs just happen to be part of it.

Tacs aren't exactly "bad" either. They're just purely average.

Experiment 626 wrote:
Tacs aren't exactly "bad" either. They're just purely average.

They're pretty bad, especially when you start paying to make them do stuff.

I don't think Tacs are bad necessarily. They're considered "bad" because when making comparisons, a lot of people compare troops to Tactical Marines. They've become the baseline unit that most things are compared to now. Are they good? No. But there are far worse troops choices than them

They're considered bad because they are not cheap and have very little offense in a game that has ramped up offensive capabilities a lot.

I wouldn't say they have little offense. They can still put the hurt on units, not to the extent that Scatbikes can admittedly, but saying they have very little offense is an outright lie

 War Kitten wrote:
I wouldn't say they have little offense. They can still put the hurt on units, not to the extent that Scatbikes can admittedly, but saying they have very little offense is an outright lie

No, not really. They can't really put the hurt on anything. If you buy expensive upgrades, they can do a little. They pay for WS, S, grenades, and I that are all crap in 7th ed.

I'm sorry Martel, but in this we'll have to disagree. Tac Marines can put the hurt on plenty of things, but since you're not going to agree with me no matter what I say I'm just going to move along

I tried trudging through this thread to see if this has been pointed out but I gave up with all the math hammer. That said if this has already been posted I apologize.

Are not all the units in a Gladius OS? In an edition where the majority of points are scored by holding objectives isn't that where the strength (and OP reputation) comes from?

 War Kitten wrote:
I wouldn't say they have little offense. They can still put the hurt on units, not to the extent that Scatbikes can admittedly, but saying they have very little offense is an outright lie

Their biggest offense comes from whatever special or heavy weapon and/or potential Combi-weapon the squad carries. If/when those are taken out/used up, then yes, the squad itself has almost no offensive output.

The thing is though, in a basic CAD, Tacticals are just the same as almost every other Troop option in the game; they're your required 'tax' to get to the really good stuff. That doesn't make them useless garbage. It just means you have to invest in some extremely average & mediocre units to support your much shinier toys.

One of the more popular ways to use Tacticals in such a way for example, is to take 5 w/Meltagun + Combi-Melta in a Drop Pod w/Deathwind launcher. For around what, 150'ish pts, you get a pair of Obsec units with arguably the game's best Alpha Strike delivery, can threaten 2 targets, and if you pick that target(s) right, they easily make their pts back.
Or else even just taking a Plasma gun & sitting in cover all game, or rushing an objective in a cheap Rhino, which can then be used as a LoS blocker at worst! (and is still Obsec to boot, meaning that both it & the Tactical Squad must be killed to claim that objective!)


That's infinitely better than their closest 'clone' in the basic Chaos Marine.

 War Kitten wrote:
I'm sorry Martel, but in this we'll have to disagree. Tac Marines can put the hurt on plenty of things, but since you're not going to agree with me no matter what I say I'm just going to move along

Depends on whether you mean theoretical things or things people actually use.

DAs are better vs most MCs than naked Tacs, sure. But 5 Tacs with Plasma or Grav do about as much damage to MCs/heavy (and any other heavy target) as 7 DAs, while retaining about equal anti-infantry damage, and wildly outclassing them at hurting AVs. While being much, much more survivable vs small arms, and comparatively amazing at CC.

DAs are more mobile, and still win a little at protracted MC hunting.

It kinda balances out. DAs certainly don't blow Tacs out of the water.

So, at this point, we're seeing:

Better than Tacs:
CWE Bikes
Necron Warriors
Fire Warriors
SM Bikes?

Comparable to Tacs/Debatable:
CSMs
Dire Avengers
Guardsmen?
Scouts?
SOB?

Worse than Tacs:
Wyches
Kalabites
Blood letters
Daemonettes
Pink Horrors
Plague Bearers
Kroot
PAGK
Storm Guardians
Guardian Defenders
Rangers
Tyranid Warriors
Genestealers

How is that list looking so far?

Chaos Marines are what a truly garbage level MEQ looks like.

They're battling it out for 'barely above Wyches' with the likes of Gaunts. Hell, even freaking Nurglings are better than the basic Chaos Marine.

I see the top four units ten times more than all the bottom units put together. Maybe more. I couldn't even tell you what half of those units even do. They exist in theory, but not in practice for me.

So, then, how is making one of the reasons they don't see table time even better at kicking their asses anything but unfair?

It might Ben"fair" to scatterbikes, but certainly not to most of the troops in the game.

SM top most of that list without Gladius. With it, its really just ScatterBikes that can hold their own against them.

Does gladius really make them better at kicking ass? I'd say no. It just floods the board with obj sec. I think gladius is actually poor at kill point missions. Because all those tacs aren't hurting anyone.

Remember how you made that statement one time Bharring and were proven wrong when it came to Marines with Plasma vs Dire Avengers? Let us not have that fiasco again.

Also nobody cares if Dire Avengers can't hurt transports, because you aren't able to kid yourself into thinking they can deal with them.
Marines with a Special and Heavy Weapon can HURT transports, but not actually frighten them and mathematically kill them quickly, and in the same way, people saying Guardians could be better than Dire Avengers because they can take a Weapons platforms are wrong too.

Specialization is key, otherwise you end up with units that aren't able to handle anything particularly well (Tactical Marines, Guardians, Grey Knights) or something that is stupidly good at many tasks (Scatterbikes, Immortals, Space Marine Bikers).