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I think rending is a little to much but bolters need something unless this game gets a hard reboot and their are clear balancing/removing bigger things from the standard game.

Martel732 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Those 'nasty guardsmen'? They die to anything and everything, especially the Vindicator Linebreaker which just loves to scoop vast blobs of infantry from the board.

Vindicator linebreakers only get one shot. Even vs BA. Try again. If that, actually because the last time someone trotted that out, one of them ate some drop meltas to the face. Drop meltas aren't even that good. But against that, they're good. But three AV 11 vehicles are not good at that price point.

Infantry heavy is counter meta. People are bringing weapons to kill titans and crap. Give them a 4++ and they're golden.

That was vs your BA's Martle, your not quite SM Marines. You know, decent BS, decent T and armour, the ability to DS with just about everything short of a tank?

My IG have to either pray that the BS3 HWT manage to get some insanely good hits or really hpe that my opponent rolls abysmally or my Meltas are never going to see anything sub 18". Also where are you getting that 4++ from? PLease tell me it is not another 1-in-6 chance psychic power.


@OP:
I have been tabled by regular marines many times before. Gladius is over powered.

 jreilly89 wrote:
Would Rending on bolters be fair? or too much? As is, I'm pretty jealous of Eldar with all their psuedo-AP 2 weapons

Put rending on bolters and GK become most hated army again.

One way would be to copy the raptors chapter tactic and make all boltguns and pistols heavy 1 rending if you don't move. It's a boost that does have a trade off.

I long for the days when Space marines just had ATSKNF, Chaos were the only ones with deepstrike, Guards had exclusive access to tank squadrons, Tyranids' biggest monster was the Carnifex, and Orks could literally use any vehicle from any imperial codex.

 master of ordinance wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Those 'nasty guardsmen'? They die to anything and everything, especially the Vindicator Linebreaker which just loves to scoop vast blobs of infantry from the board.

Vindicator linebreakers only get one shot. Even vs BA. Try again. If that, actually because the last time someone trotted that out, one of them ate some drop meltas to the face. Drop meltas aren't even that good. But against that, they're good. But three AV 11 vehicles are not good at that price point.

Infantry heavy is counter meta. People are bringing weapons to kill titans and crap. Give them a 4++ and they're golden.

That was vs your BA's Martle, your not quite SM Marines. You know, decent BS, decent T and armour, the ability to DS with just about everything short of a tank?

My IG have to either pray that the BS3 HWT manage to get some insanely good hits or really hpe that my opponent rolls abysmally or my Meltas are never going to see anything sub 18". Also where are you getting that 4++ from? PLease tell me it is not another 1-in-6 chance psychic power.


@OP:
I have been tabled by regular marines many times before. Gladius is over powered.

No, the game I'm referring to was vs vanilla marines once and DA another time. The IG player had six level 2 divination primaris psykers. It was good.

And BA tac squads are basically identical to vanilla tac squads. The difference is gladius. If not for gladius, the vanilla tacs would be terrible, too.

.

This thread is still going? Ima go grab mah popcorn and catch up.

Daaaannnggg, 7 pages to say, "Yup, the OP is a troll?"

Sm are just too spoilt with goodies now. Like a rich kid who believes his life sucks cause his parents presented him a shkoda instead of ferrari.

Martel732 wrote:

stopcallingmechief wrote:

Traditio wrote:
Furthermore, I wish to ask this question to all of the people who are complaining about it:

When is the last time you got tabled by a battle company?

I got tabled saturday vs my buddies battle company in an ETC tourney practise game. Had 4 warpspiders and one swooping hawk exarch on the table after five turns when i called it.

But i prolly dont count since im not a "name" player.

That is a very unlikely outcome with Eldar. You should be doing the tabling with that codex.

To be fair, that was an ETC game. ETC is heavy comp, so the Eldar player was likely playing with both hands tied behind his back.

Honestly, I'd rather Shred on Boltguns over Rending. Don't need to steal the Eldar's thing to be cool, after all.

Makes Marines more reliable, which is what they should be, imo.

Trooooololololol


Troooolllll

Troll?

 Xenomancers wrote:
With all due respect - the space marine isn't a top troop choice. It's actually one of the worst (probably the worst). I'd take an IG vet squad or infantry platoon over a space marine tactical any day. Now - if this formation was 12 vet squads with free chimeras - that would be broken (granted it would cost a little bit more in the end - it would absolutely pwn gladius.)

My Genestealers would seriously debate the whole Tacs being the worst argument. You're correct, though, the Tacs are bad, but in the objective missions, with the free stuff, they do exactly what they need to do. The problem is, GW hasn't given any other awful troops anywhere near the bump they gave the Tacs. That "bad" unit now creates one of the most OP things in the game.......

Traditio wrote:
Assault squads suck. Rhinos suck. And even if assault squads could have taken razorbacks, nobody would have bothered: razorbacks suck. Their armor is paper thin.

That's basically it.
GW could not give enough incentive players to take the transports, so they had to give them away for free.

the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah I don't think we've EVER seen 3-4 editions where spamming the maximum number of razorbacks was the dominant meta build.

Razorback spam died back at the tail end of 5th edition. When STR 6/7 weapons became commonplace the spam was killed.

I agree it is not overpowered.
.
However I must disagree with many of the things you said:
.
First, your point about Razorbacks.
In 5th edition AND 6th edition Razorback Spam WAS something people saw a lot
ever hear of Razor-Wolves and Razor-Angels?
Basically you take six 5 man squads of cheap troops with special weapons (Melta/Plasma) in Lascannon or Las/Plas Razorbacks.
Then you take Devestators/Longfangs in Las cannon Razor Backs.
Then you take Librarians.
Then you take anything else.
.
Next, you do not actually have to take Devestators or Assault Marines in the formation.
You can take the much better Bike squad instead, and with grav guns in them they become incredibly powerful units.
You can also take Centurion Devestators, aka Grav-Centurions in a FREE DROP POD!!!
.
While I agree that its not an unfair or over powered formation, I do not think you know enough about the game, or the
way the formation is actually being used, to understand why it is fair. In reality the Gladius Strike Force is fair because
when compared to other Optimal Choice Formations and Army Lists it allows the Space Marines to compete. The list
essentially lets Suicide Drop Pods and Razorback Spam become affordable, making it good.
Razorbacks become mini Predators for a mere twenty points.
.
All in all most competitive players dont complain about the Gladius because against the average tier 1 army it competes but does not steamroll
like other lists *coughcoughwraithknightspamcoughcough* I suggest looking more into how people are using the list before making claims about
why people think certain ways about it. Good ideas here about point imbalance but a lot of that is rather subjective. If Wraithknights were another
hundred points nobody would play them. Razorbacks are 3 hull points worth of TL Lascannon fire for less than a Rhino with essentially deployable
cover in the shape of 5 Adeptus Astartes body shields. I hope this helps you see a few things in a slightly different light, and I look forward to reading
more of your posts in the future, but please do a bit more reading up on the formation, it may surprise you how much cheese you can mil out of it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for Tactical Squads being bad...chapter tactics make them pretty beastly. Ultrasmurf armies that stack on Doctrines can
essentially make a bunch of statistically freighting Tactical Marines. Imperial Fists make them actually able to kill whole
units of MEQs rather easily, and Red Scorpions make them give their unit FNP which transfers over to Independant Characters
leading to new levels of silly


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Traditio wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
"Razorbacks suck"

Yeah I don't think we've EVER seen 3-4 editions where spamming the maximum number of razorbacks was the dominant meta build.

That may have been true in 5th and prior. In 6th edition and onwards? If razorbacks weren't free, it would be a really hard sell to take them on their own merits. 55 points for a transport that:

1. Can only carry 6 people.
2. Is armed with a twin linked heavy bolter
3. Has a cumulative AV value of 32
4. Has no firing points and
5. Does not have the "assault" rule.

No thanks.

Its a scoring vehicle with a TL Lascannon with okay AV and 3 HP that can get small units to objectives and help hold said objectives. I think your missing the point of a Razorback...

Yeah, because being able to reroll to hit with bolters makes tactical marines scary for fists. The same for Ultramarines, really.

Grav Centurions in a Gladius cannot get a free drop pod. In fact, without a CAD to go with your gladius,they cannot get a pod at all. Please, if you are going mock people for not knowing the book or not having to take something, at least know the basic rules.

And if you are putting the marines in the razorback in front of the razorback to give the razorback cover, you don't have to worry about the razorback being shot, as they will shoot the marines instead.

 Crazyterran wrote:
And if you are putting the marines in the razorback in front of the razorback to give the razorback cover, you don't have to worry about the razorback being shot, as they will shoot the marines instead.

Moot point, they're still not blowing up the razorback, which is the whole point :p

Felldrake wrote:
First, your point about Razorbacks.
In 5th edition AND 6th edition Razorback Spam WAS something people saw a lot
ever hear of Razor-Wolves and Razor-Angels?
Basically you take six 5 man squads of cheap troops with special weapons (Melta/Plasma) in Lascannon or Las/Plas Razorbacks.

The game of 40k changed since then.
First GK game out, bringing a TON of STR 7/8 to the game with psycannons and psydreads.
Then Necrons were re-released and Gauss was everywhere.
Eldar wave serpent spam was released after that, putting the final nail in the razorback coffin.

This is why razorbacks have to be given away for people to take them. They fit the role of the marines well -- a fast moving strike force. But at 55 points they are simply overpriced. Being 0-20 points means people will take them, giving the 'feel' of marine armies. This is an intentional design on GW's part to encourage people to take thematic armies.

Felldrake wrote:
In reality the Gladius Strike Force is fair because when compared to other Optimal Choice Formations and Army Lists it allows the Space Marines to compete.

This.
In a game where scatbikes and stormsurges are common, C:SM need something to stay competitive. One way would be to give them more overpowered units, and another way is to give them extra units.

Martel732 wrote:
Genestealers are the mirror image of tac marines. Both from Rogue trader, both "old school". The tac marines are somewhat survivable, but have no offense to speak of. The genestealers have dangerous offense in melee, but this is 7th ed, and they have 5+ armor. Both are bad unit for different reasons.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

 labmouse42 wrote:

Felldrake wrote:
In reality the Gladius Strike Force is fair because when compared to other Optimal Choice Formations and Army Lists it allows the Space Marines to compete.

This.
In a game where scatbikes and stormsurges are common, C:SM need something to stay competitive. One way would be to give them more overpowered units, and another way is to give them extra units.

I would think the Centstar is good enough. I've never felt I needed the GSF to win games with the centstar deleting about 2 units a turn.

I feel sorry for the Marine players I really do. Afterall, to be so spoiled for choice with all these incredibly good formations one cannot imagine the suffering they must go through to find a good list.

Marines have what? Two good formations? Three if you count the libby thingie. As far as I can tell, all marines list are just these things spammed over and over. BA have zero good formations. I don't know about SW. DA have the ravenwing one. And the one that gives interceptor.

Martel732 wrote:
Marines have what? Two good formations? Three if you count the libby thingie. As far as I can tell, all marines list are just these things spammed over and over. BA have zero good formations. I don't know about SW. DA have the ravenwing one. And the one that gives interceptor.

Vanillas have the all mighty Gladius Strike Force to begin with.

Of the individual formations, they've got the Libby Conclave, Scout & 1st Company formations which are all top level.
The Vindi Linebreaker isn't exactly terrible either.

Marines have plenty of toys - more than they typically know what to do with.

Unlike say, half the other armies in the game.

We all agree and repeat ourselves except some SM players who will never agree with the rest of us lets call it a day ?

I'm a space marine player and I agree our book is more than fine.

I agree. We have a strong codex, so let's call it day and close this thread. We can argue about the OPness of the GSF some other day

It is strong, but not because meqs or marine vehicles are good. That's my point.

Yes, because Tacs are the worst troop in the game.

Except for Genestealers.
And Wyches.
Kroot.
Kalabites.
Ork Boys
Storm Guardians
Guardian Defenders
Dire Avengers
Rangers
PAGK
...

I mean, look at how short that list is!

Tac Marines made it to high levels in 7E before the new codex dropped (mostly as ObSec spam). They aren't typically top tier. There are things that kick their asses. But they are nowhere near the worst troops in the game.

(My first thought for that would be Wyches.)

Bharring wrote:
Dire Avengers

Fleet, bladestorm and +1 BS if you use the formation is terrible?