Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
Kilkrazy wrote: You still haven't answered the point of why a routine traffic stop is likely to turn into a gunfight in the USA.
The short answer is that it is not likely and very few people are ever shot by police. The still short answer is that in the few situations where it does occur - a few mistakes are made and blown up by the media - this is literally human error. Everything has human error where humans are involved. Why do these cops usually not get charged with crimes? Because they didn't commit crimes - they made a gross mistake. Usually given the circumstance the mistake is understandable by a Jury and so they aren't convicted. I don't think this guy is going to get off though - not because he is black but because he killed a women.
Yes, that is completely true, BUT, at the same time, you are more likely to be shot by police in the USA than in any other western alliance country (Japan, Canada, Australia, France, Norway, etc.) Let's leave out the UK because it's a massive outlier, not having armed police.
It poses the question of why there is so much more human error in the USA than in Ireland, Sweden, or South Korea. I don't imagine anyone is going to argue that US policemen and/or their managing departments are more stupid than the other countries.
I could argue that. When you don't allocate time and funds to train a professional force of citizens who also keep the peace then that qualifies as stupid IMO.
You know why they don't allocate time to it?
Because police run excessively heavy shift schedules. The officers don't have time to go down to the range like Joe Schmuck with his pistols and get time in.
Doesn't matter. Job training does not come out of your free time, range time here comes in your schedule (or is paid as overtime) and if you fail you lose your gun until you're proficient again.
Not entirely true. If it's a requirement to keep your job, you have to take care of it yourself.
You can still be a cop without a gun. You'll just get less pay and a desk position.
You have a gakky employer if mandatory training comes from your free time.
Welcome to the US corporate world
The police don't work in the corporate world. They are unionized municipal and state employees in the public sector. If officers in police departments are shooting and killing people because they aren't well trained enough to practice diligent firearm safety and situational awareness then those departments are being managed very well at all and the municipalities/states are not allocating their revenue into police budgets in an intelligent manner. Employees hurting people because they are doing their assigned tasks poorly because they are not well trained is entirely the employer's fault.
Due to racism and social constructs on every side, a lot ethnic groups see this as an us vs. them mentality when it comes to the police, and in many ways the police do this to them as well.
I had a feeling you and I were closer in agreement than I thought. It was just a failure of communication.
Support Blood and Spectacles Publishing:
https://www.patreon.com/Bloodandspectaclespublishing
Kilkrazy wrote: You still haven't answered the point of why a routine traffic stop is likely to turn into a gunfight in the USA.
The short answer is that it is not likely and very few people are ever shot by police. The still short answer is that in the few situations where it does occur - a few mistakes are made and blown up by the media - this is literally human error. Everything has human error where humans are involved. Why do these cops usually not get charged with crimes? Because they didn't commit crimes - they made a gross mistake. Usually given the circumstance the mistake is understandable by a Jury and so they aren't convicted. I don't think this guy is going to get off though - not because he is black but because he killed a women.
Yes, that is completely true, BUT, at the same time, you are more likely to be shot by police in the USA than in any other western alliance country (Japan, Canada, Australia, France, Norway, etc.) Let's leave out the UK because it's a massive outlier, not having armed police.
It poses the question of why there is so much more human error in the USA than in Ireland, Sweden, or South Korea. I don't imagine anyone is going to argue that US policemen and/or their managing departments are more stupid than the other countries.
I could argue that. When you don't allocate time and funds to train a professional force of citizens who also keep the peace then that qualifies as stupid IMO.
You know why they don't allocate time to it?
Because police run excessively heavy shift schedules. The officers don't have time to go down to the range like Joe Schmuck with his pistols and get time in.
Doesn't matter. Job training does not come out of your free time, range time here comes in your schedule (or is paid as overtime) and if you fail you lose your gun until you're proficient again.
Not entirely true. If it's a requirement to keep your job, you have to take care of it yourself.
You can still be a cop without a gun. You'll just get less pay and a desk position.
You have a gakky employer if mandatory training comes from your free time.
Welcome to the US corporate world
The police don't work in the corporate world. They are unionized municipal and state employees in the public sector. If officers in police departments are shooting and killing people because they aren't well trained enough to practice diligent firearm safety and situational awareness then those departments are being managed very well at all and the municipalities/states are not allocating their revenue into police budgets in an intelligent manner. Employees hurting people because they are doing their assigned tasks poorly because they are not well trained is entirely the employer's fault.
Some people think that government should be more like corporations. When it is, people throw a fit
Henry wrote: Agreed, but that wasn't the conclusion of the article we're discussing. The author made it clear that the only way incidents can happen is either mechanical malfunction or if somebody is fooling around. Those aren't the only options and is a very dangerous attitude to have in relation to gun safety.
How else does a firearm discharge unintentionally? I know that rounds can cook off and discharge prior to the trigger being pulled, but most people will not be going through that volume of fire to reach that point.
It seems that she may have slapped the rear of the police vehicle when they arrived to get their attention (so maybe they were driving past her or didn't notice her?) and that's the "loud noise" that got her killed.
I'd like to hear some more details on this development as it seems strange that the deceased slapped the rear of the police car and then was shot on the driver's side while talking with an Officer.
I would like to hear more as well, and I think that's why they are looking for a witness. It's not really unreasonable to slap the car as you are walking up to it from the rear and then walk towards the drivers side. If that's what happened I wouldn't be surprised if she was impatient (she did call 911 twice) and the car was getting ready to drive past her location.
And obviously, slapping a cop car is not something that should get you killed.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/26 11:08:47
Is this true? I mean why the hell cops were allowed to search her home? Any guns or drugs that eventually were kept at her home are irrelevant to the shooting. If she was intoxicated the autopsy would have showed that.
There was clearly an intent to criminalize the victim, in order to make her lose some of the sympathy from the the media.
This can maybe happen in Mexico o in the Philippines, it's hard to believe that american cops are allowed to behave like that and these procedures are considered "standard" and legit.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: She's not around to say otherwise, so she was also snapping her teeth at the officers due to all that methrabies she had.
indeed, it's not on video but she's a shifter and was turning into a werebear and only the quick action if the rookie saved them.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Is this true? I mean why the hell cops were allowed to search her home? Any guns or drugs that eventually were kept at her home are irrelevant to the shooting. If she was intoxicated the autopsy would have showed that.
There was clearly an intent to criminalize the victim, in order to make her lose some of the sympathy from the the media.
This can maybe happen in Mexico o in the Philippines, it's hard to believe that american cops are allowed to behave like that and these procedures are considered "standard" and legit.
After seeing "Making a Murderer" where a single search warrant seemed to give the police (even police officers unconnected to the case) access to the home 24 hours a day for several days so that they could happen to find a set of keys lying in plain sight on the third search, I'm not sure I really understand how the US system works when it comes to searching peoples homes.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/26 12:11:43
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
Is this true? I mean why the hell cops were allowed to search her home? Any guns or drugs that eventually were kept at her home are irrelevant to the shooting. If she was intoxicated the autopsy would have showed that.
There was clearly an intent to criminalize the victim, in order to make her lose some of the sympathy from the the media.
This can maybe happen in Mexico o in the Philippines, it's hard to believe that american cops are allowed to behave like that and these procedures are considered "standard" and legit.
On the one hand, it looks like they were looking for something to exonerate a bad shoot. On the other, a thorough investigation pretty much requires everything to be looked at and this should shoot down any claims that she was doing anything wrong.
Kilkrazy wrote: You still haven't answered the point of why a routine traffic stop is likely to turn into a gunfight in the USA.
The short answer is that it is not likely and very few people are ever shot by police. The still short answer is that in the few situations where it does occur - a few mistakes are made and blown up by the media - this is literally human error. Everything has human error where humans are involved. Why do these cops usually not get charged with crimes? Because they didn't commit crimes - they made a gross mistake. Usually given the circumstance the mistake is understandable by a Jury and so they aren't convicted. I don't think this guy is going to get off though - not because he is black but because he killed a women.
Yes, that is completely true, BUT, at the same time, you are more likely to be shot by police in the USA than in any other western alliance country (Japan, Canada, Australia, France, Norway, etc.) Let's leave out the UK because it's a massive outlier, not having armed police.
It poses the question of why there is so much more human error in the USA than in Ireland, Sweden, or South Korea. I don't imagine anyone is going to argue that US policemen and/or their managing departments are more stupid than the other countries.
I could argue that. When you don't allocate time and funds to train a professional force of citizens who also keep the peace then that qualifies as stupid IMO.
You know why they don't allocate time to it?
Because police run excessively heavy shift schedules. The officers don't have time to go down to the range like Joe Schmuck with his pistols and get time in.
Doesn't matter. Job training does not come out of your free time, range time here comes in your schedule (or is paid as overtime) and if you fail you lose your gun until you're proficient again.
Not entirely true. If it's a requirement to keep your job, you have to take care of it yourself.
You can still be a cop without a gun. You'll just get less pay and a desk position.
You have a gakky employer if mandatory training comes from your free time.
Welcome to the US corporate world
The police don't work in the corporate world. They are unionized municipal and state employees in the public sector. If officers in police departments are shooting and killing people because they aren't well trained enough to practice diligent firearm safety and situational awareness then those departments are being managed very well at all and the municipalities/states are not allocating their revenue into police budgets in an intelligent manner. Employees hurting people because they are doing their assigned tasks poorly because they are not well trained is entirely the employer's fault.
Some people think that government should be more like corporations. When it is, people throw a fit
Every company I've worked for has given me job training during work hours and reimbursed me for any job related certifications or education that I did on my own time. YMMV, but assigning work tasks to employees that have not been properly trained to do those tasks and/or have not shown themselves to be competent in performing those tasks is an example of mismanagement and negligence that borders on malfeasance by those employees' superiors. Don't levy taxes on me in the name of funding public services for the public good and then send out poorly trained officers who endanger the public. Taking money from the public conveys the responsibility of actually spending it wisely and producing the desired results.
These officers took over 8 minutes to respond to a call of a possible rape in progress and upon arrival shot the unarmed woman who had called 911 to get help. At least they managed to arrive at the correct address.
SOUTHAVEN, MS (WMC) - Documents show that Southaven officers went to the wrong house to serve a warrant on Monday, which resulted in the shooting death of a man who did not have any active warrants out for his arrest.
A warrant out of Tate County shows Samuel Pearman was wanted for domestic assault. But, when Southaven officers arrived on Surrey Lane to arrest Pearman, they did not show up to the correct house.
Instead, officers missed their target by 36 feet. Those 36 feet made all the difference to Ismael Lopez and his wife.
"Someone didn't take the time to analyze the address," attorney Murray Wells, who represents the family, said. "This is incredibly tragic and embarrassing to this police department that they can't read house numbers."
Wells pointed out that the house officers should have gone to, the one where Pearman was located, had a large 'P' on the door. While officials sort out what happened, the man they were looking for took to social media.
Pearson even posted on Facebook Live on Tuesday afternoon claiming he didn't do anything wrong.Â
"They made me out to be something I'm not," he said. "I haven't hurt her. She's the one who slapped me."
Ismael Lopez and his wife, Claudia Linares, were asleep inside their house across the street from Pearson when officers arrived.
Linares said her husband went to the door to see what was happening outside. That's when she heard gunshots and by the time she reached her husband, he was already dead.
"Bullet holes suggest they shot through the door," Wells said.Â
Officers said Lopez came to the door pointing a gun at them. Those officers claim to have asked Lopez multiple times to drop the gun before they started shooting.
But, neighbors said they didn't hear anything like that.
"I didn't hear yelling," neighbor Nicholas Tramel said.
Tramel's room is right next to the Lopez home. He said he never heard police tell Lopez to put his rifle down.Â
Wells implied that officers had reasons not to tell the truth in their account of what happened. Namely, because they could face consequences for shooting Lopez. He also said that Claudia, who was the only one on the property who could not be held responsible for shooting Lopez, did not hear any commands or instructions being given. In addition, Wells said Lopez never pointed a gun at the officers.
"There was a gun on the premises, but the man did not have the gun with him when police shot him," he said.Â
d-usa wrote: I would like to hear more as well, and I think that's why they are looking for a witness. It's not really unreasonable to slap the car as you are walking up to it from the rear and then walk towards the drivers side. If that's what happened I wouldn't be surprised if she was impatient (she did call 911 twice) and the car was getting ready to drive past her location.
And obviously, slapping a cop car is not something that should get you killed.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
d-usa wrote: I would like to hear more as well, and I think that's why they are looking for a witness. It's not really unreasonable to slap the car as you are walking up to it from the rear and then walk towards the drivers side. If that's what happened I wouldn't be surprised if she was impatient (she did call 911 twice) and the car was getting ready to drive past her location.
And obviously, slapping a cop car is not something that should get you killed.
I agree. If she had walked up behind the car and slapped the back of it it would have been tough for the rookie to immediately pull his gun and accidentally shoot her through the passenger window.
Being impatient is somewhat understandable, but 8 minute response time is actually pretty good. So it's not like the cops were late.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: She's not around to say otherwise, so she was also snapping her teeth at the officers due to all that methrabies she had.
indeed, it's not on video but she's a shifter and was turning into a werebear and only the quick action if the rookie saved them.
You mean a weredropbear?
I cannot think of a single good reason to search a victims home. If anything, the Officer's home should be searched. This whole thing stinks of a coverup. Next thing we know she will be some drug kingpin who only called the cops to stick it to the man.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: She's not around to say otherwise, so she was also snapping her teeth at the officers due to all that methrabies she had.
indeed, it's not on video but she's a shifter and was turning into a werebear and only the quick action if the rookie saved them.
You mean a weredropbear?
I cannot think of a single good reason to search a victims home. If anything, the Officer's home should be searched. This whole thing stinks of a coverup. Next thing we know she will be some drug kingpin who only called the cops to stick it to the man.
Yep.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
d-usa wrote: I would like to hear more as well, and I think that's why they are looking for a witness. It's not really unreasonable to slap the car as you are walking up to it from the rear and then walk towards the drivers side. If that's what happened I wouldn't be surprised if she was impatient (she did call 911 twice) and the car was getting ready to drive past her location.
And obviously, slapping a cop car is not something that should get you killed.
I agree. If she had walked up behind the car and slapped the back of it it would have been tough for the rookie to immediately pull his gun and accidentally shoot her through the passenger window.
Being impatient is somewhat understandable, but 8 minute response time is actually pretty good. So it's not like the cops were late.
Very true. It's not a bad response time, but we know times moves slow if you are in distress and if she's listening to what she thinks is a woman being raped I wouldn't fault her for feeling like it took a lot longer than that. And if the cop car was driving past her without noticing her I wouldn't be surprised if she ran up the car to give it a quick slap to basically say "hey, don't pass me, I called, it's over there, please stop".
Of course we still don't know if that is what really happened, but if it did I think for me the important thing to takeaway would be:
- It wasn't an unreasonable action on her part.
- It doesn't justify the shooting.
d-usa wrote: I would like to hear more as well, and I think that's why they are looking for a witness. It's not really unreasonable to slap the car as you are walking up to it from the rear and then walk towards the drivers side. If that's what happened I wouldn't be surprised if she was impatient (she did call 911 twice) and the car was getting ready to drive past her location.
And obviously, slapping a cop car is not something that should get you killed.
I agree. If she had walked up behind the car and slapped the back of it it would have been tough for the rookie to immediately pull his gun and accidentally shoot her through the passenger window.
Being impatient is somewhat understandable, but 8 minute response time is actually pretty good. So it's not like the cops were late.
Very true. It's not a bad response time, but we know times moves slow if you are in distress and if she's listening to what she thinks is a woman being raped I wouldn't fault her for feeling like it took a lot longer than that. And if the cop car was driving past her without noticing her I wouldn't be surprised if she ran up the car to give it a quick slap to basically say "hey, don't pass me, I called, it's over there, please stop".
Of course we still don't know if that is what really happened, but if it did I think for me the important thing to takeaway would be:
- It wasn't an unreasonable action on her part. - It doesn't justify the shooting.
And when responding to a call where a woman might have been raped, having a woman run up to your car and try to get your attention definitely should not be unexpected.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/26 16:55:49
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
d-usa wrote: So we are waiting on the "drunk on Facebook" pictures?
She's Aussie. I would expect "drink riding a crocodile and punching a kangaroo while fleeing giant spiders on Facebook."
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
And, IIRC, the cop accused of the shooting has refused to cooperate and speak to the state police investigation unit - Minnesota Bureau of Criminal Apprehension. He said he will not make a statement or be interviewed by them.
So, I do not know if cooperating with this unit is mandatory, but surely any shooting gets reviewed by the police department itself. My guess is the department is still conducting its internal investigation and will not release any info now - nor any time in the future, if not in their interests to do so.
So absolutely tragic. What a loss of a beautiful woman and person who was just trying to have a happy life.
MDSW wrote: And, IIRC, the cop accused of the shooting has refused to cooperate and speak to the state police investigation unit - Minnesota Bureau of Criminal Apprehension. He said he will not make a statement or be interviewed by them.
So, I do not know if cooperating with this unit is mandatory, but surely any shooting gets reviewed by the police department itself. My guess is the department is still conducting its internal investigation and will not release any info now - nor any time in the future, if not in their interests to do so.
So absolutely tragic. What a loss of a beautiful woman and person who was just trying to have a happy life.
I believe the officer is required to do an interview with his department's internal investigation but in regards to speaking with state police he is still protected by his 5th amendment right to not incriminate himself during a criminal investigation. His lawyer is going to make sure he doesn't say anything except for the absolute minimum required. It's unfortunate because it doesn't help figure our what happened that night but I don't want to take that right away from anybody.
The 8 minute response time isn't bad generally speaking but in terms of actually arriving in time to stop an assault in progress or apprehend the attacker 8 minutes is an awfully long time. The woman called after hearing screams/yelling so whatever was happening was already in progress, she called, waited, called again and finally saw the squad car by that point she probably thought that if she really did hear an assault in progress the only thing the cops were going to do now was find an injured or dead woman in the alley. That's a reasonable explanation for her being anxious to run up to the car and be demonstrative to get their attention.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: She's not around to say otherwise, so she was also snapping her teeth at the officers due to all that methrabies she had.
indeed, it's not on video but she's a shifter and was turning into a werebear and only the quick action if the rookie saved them.
You mean a weredropbear?
I cannot think of a single good reason to search a victims home. If anything, the Officer's home should be searched. This whole thing stinks of a coverup. Next thing we know she will be some drug kingpin who only called the cops to stick it to the man.
Yup, I would expect with any killing that a warrant to search the suspect's home be obtained. Additionally, I would want phone, email, and computer data dumps.
I'm no fan of the British police, and I've had plenty of bad things to say about them over the years, but after reading all this, I'll take the British police any day of the week.
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: I'm no fan of the British police, and I've had plenty of bad things to say about them over the years, but after reading all this, I'll take the British police any day of the week.
Same here, just it's the german police. The US police overall just doesn't seem well trained when such things happen. If your job gives you the power to end a life with minimal penalties then you need to be held to a much higher standards than the rest of the population.
