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 Crimson wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I would be surprised if there aren't generic relics, but like you said, the lack of mention makes it seem like that will be the case. Screwing over Successor Chapters again, I see. Though it seems more like the two Successor Chapters with relics are the exception to the Successor just using the parent chapter relic.

It would totally such if there wouldn't be generic relics. There really wouldn't be a choice, the only choice you would have would be whether to take the relic or not. Super lame.

I agree wholeheartedly. I think generic relics are great. I am just saying that it wouldn't surprise me if they didn't exist and one was locked the relic associated with their army's Chapter Tactics.

Just a quick note on Salamanders. One thing that may have been over looked is the fact that all SM armies have access to quality characters that effectively give re-rolls and not just to one dice.

Yes its a powerful tactic, however Salamanders cannot simply invest in characters to get -1 to hit, 6 army wide ignore wound, +1 against units in cover etc. Characters are also pretty dam good so they are hardly a tax either.

Also flamers don't use the hit re-roll and Salamander character abilities will often overlap with the Salamanders talent.

Just a few things to factor in for those that want to prove with maths that Salamanders have the best tactic. I am not saying it isn't the best just that there is more to it than we might first think.

Gibs55 wrote:
Just a quick note on Salamanders. One thing that may have been over looked is the fact that all SM armies have access to quality characters that effectively give re-rolls and not just to one dice.

Yes its a powerful tactic, however Salamanders cannot simply invest in characters to get -1 to hit, 6 army wide ignore wound, +1 against units in cover etc. Characters are also pretty dam good so they are hardly a tax either.

Also flamers don't use the hit re-roll and Salamander character abilities will often overlap with the Salamanders talent.

Just a few things to factor in for those that want to prove with maths that Salamanders have the best tactic. I am not saying it isn't the best just that there is more to it than we might first think.

I wouldnt be surprised to see the Salies get a Strategem that makes flamers good.

I also reckon people are seriously downplaying 6+ FNP on the IH.

Thats a 16 percent increase in troop survivability. 1 in 6 tmarines that would be killed; now arent.

I really reckon the IF got stooged a bit. Really hoping the Crimson Fists get a sexy warlord trait, because as it is Kantor is pretty hot but the CT sucks.

The sally overlap with character buffs isn't really a downside, it lets them be one of the only armies that can take a conversion beamer techmarine as their only hq and not only do they not lose most of the re-roll benefit if the rest of the army is built around it but you aren't tied to an aura size, the techmarine himself gets re-rolls on his beamer, and he heals the dreds you probably want at least a few of anyway.

 Actinium wrote:
The sally overlap with character buffs isn't really a downside, it lets them be one of the only armies that can take a conversion beamer techmarine as their only hq and not only do they not lose most of the re-roll benefit if the rest of the army is built around it but you aren't tied to an aura size, the techmarine himself gets re-rolls on his beamer, and he heals the dreds you probably want at least a few of anyway.

True,

It is though if you want to play with other characters I guess. However the other key point still stands in that re-rolls are not hard to come by should you want them. Therefore it just needs to be factored in when it gets math hammered out as it's not quite as amazing a competitive advantage as first thought.

 Actinium wrote:
The sally overlap with character buffs isn't really a downside, it lets them be one of the only armies that can take a conversion beamer techmarine as their only hq and not only do they not lose most of the re-roll benefit if the rest of the army is built around it but you aren't tied to an aura size, the techmarine himself gets re-rolls on his beamer, and he heals the dreds you probably want at least a few of anyway.

the CT only helps one shots so it only really effects tacticals

im sure you will still want a lieutenant or captain near it for when you inevitably roll 4 ones on those lascannon devs.

 Desubot wrote:

 Actinium wrote:
The sally overlap with character buffs isn't really a downside, it lets them be one of the only armies that can take a conversion beamer techmarine as their only hq and not only do they not lose most of the re-roll benefit if the rest of the army is built around it but you aren't tied to an aura size, the techmarine himself gets re-rolls on his beamer, and he heals the dreds you probably want at least a few of anyway.

the CT only helps one shots so it only really effects tacticals

im sure you will still want a lieutenant or captain near it for when you inevitably roll 4 ones on those lascannon devs.

This is absolutely not true.

You only roll more than 1 "1" on 4 dice 13% of the time, so 87% of the time the Salamanders' tactic is at least as good for the Devastators' hit rolls as a Captain. A Captain only helps your Devastators at all 52% of the time, and his average effect is as if they had an extra two-thirds of a lascannon. Working out the percentages for the Primaris Lt is annoying but his average will be the same -- it's like your 4 Devastators actually have 4.67 lascannons. With both, it's like they have 5.44 lascannons.

Meanwhile the Salamanders' tactic is useful for your hit rolls (without modifiers) 80% of the time, and due to its effect on your hit rolls alone is worth an extra 0.8 lascannons. It is therefore easily better than having a Captain next to them. It is again annoying to work out their exact effect on your wound rolls, but we should be looking at at least a 70% chance of being useful (if wounding on a 3+) and so the tactic's effect on your wound roll is worth at least another 1.05 lascannon shots. So the tactic by itself means that your 4 Devastators are effectively armed with 5.85 lascannons, or almost a 50% increase in their base firepower. The tactic is also giving you about 30% more of a benefit than the combined buffs of the Captain and Lieutenant, and is a whopping 178% better than just having a Captain nearby.

Dionysodorus wrote:


You only roll more than 1 "1" on 4 dice 13% of the time, so 87% of the time the Salamanders' tactic is at least as good for the Devastators' hit rolls as a Captain. A Captain only helps your Devastators at all 52% of the time, and his average effect is as if they had an extra two-thirds of a lascannon. Working out the percentages for the Primaris Lt is annoying but his average will be the same -- it's like your 4 Devastators actually have 4.67 lascannons. With both, it's like they have 5.44 lascannons.

Meanwhile the Salamanders' tactic is useful for your hit rolls (without modifiers) 80% of the time, and due to its effect on your hit rolls alone is worth an extra 0.8 lascannons. It is therefore easily better than having a Captain next to them. It is again annoying to work out their exact effect on your wound rolls, but we should be looking at at least a 70% chance of being useful (if wounding on a 3+) and so the tactic's effect on your wound roll is worth at least another 1.05 lascannon shots. So the tactic by itself means that your 4 Devastators are effectively armed with 5.85 lascannons, or almost a 50% increase in their base firepower. The tactic is also giving you about 30% more of a benefit than the combined buffs of the Captain and Lieutenant, and is a whopping 178% better than just having a Captain nearby.

Well, non-librarian marine characters were useful for almost two months. Can't have that! I mean people might actually create fluffy armies of Space Marines being lead by their Captains, and where would we be then?

 Crimson wrote:

Well, non-librarian marine characters were useful for almost two months. Can't have that! I mean people might actually create fluffy armies of Space Marines being lead by their Captains, and where would we be then?

Only the blind and insane will know! Time to talk to the guy with a nappy on his head:




He bringeth wisdom!

according to the new chapter preview today Iron Hands get a stratigium that allows them to fire heavy weapons on the move without penalty. a warlord trait that grants extra attacks, and a relic weapon that is pretty solid.

looking at this it's clear to me that we should not judge based on CTs alone Chapter tactics are part of a wider picture, right now we're blind men trying to describe an elephant by feeling it.

Iron Hands tactic now includes tanks and they don't suffer the movement penalty when shooting heavy or assault weapons.

This just became way better and it was already pretty good.

 Crimson wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:


You only roll more than 1 "1" on 4 dice 13% of the time, so 87% of the time the Salamanders' tactic is at least as good for the Devastators' hit rolls as a Captain. A Captain only helps your Devastators at all 52% of the time, and his average effect is as if they had an extra two-thirds of a lascannon. Working out the percentages for the Primaris Lt is annoying but his average will be the same -- it's like your 4 Devastators actually have 4.67 lascannons. With both, it's like they have 5.44 lascannons.

Meanwhile the Salamanders' tactic is useful for your hit rolls (without modifiers) 80% of the time, and due to its effect on your hit rolls alone is worth an extra 0.8 lascannons. It is therefore easily better than having a Captain next to them. It is again annoying to work out their exact effect on your wound rolls, but we should be looking at at least a 70% chance of being useful (if wounding on a 3+) and so the tactic's effect on your wound roll is worth at least another 1.05 lascannon shots. So the tactic by itself means that your 4 Devastators are effectively armed with 5.85 lascannons, or almost a 50% increase in their base firepower. The tactic is also giving you about 30% more of a benefit than the combined buffs of the Captain and Lieutenant, and is a whopping 178% better than just having a Captain nearby.

Well, non-librarian marine characters were useful for almost two months. Can't have that! I mean people might actually create fluffy armies of Space Marines being lead by their Captains, and where would we be then?

Still usefull for people that arent playing Salamanders

 Crimson wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:


You only roll more than 1 "1" on 4 dice 13% of the time, so 87% of the time the Salamanders' tactic is at least as good for the Devastators' hit rolls as a Captain. A Captain only helps your Devastators at all 52% of the time, and his average effect is as if they had an extra two-thirds of a lascannon. Working out the percentages for the Primaris Lt is annoying but his average will be the same -- it's like your 4 Devastators actually have 4.67 lascannons. With both, it's like they have 5.44 lascannons.

Meanwhile the Salamanders' tactic is useful for your hit rolls (without modifiers) 80% of the time, and due to its effect on your hit rolls alone is worth an extra 0.8 lascannons. It is therefore easily better than having a Captain next to them. It is again annoying to work out their exact effect on your wound rolls, but we should be looking at at least a 70% chance of being useful (if wounding on a 3+) and so the tactic's effect on your wound roll is worth at least another 1.05 lascannon shots. So the tactic by itself means that your 4 Devastators are effectively armed with 5.85 lascannons, or almost a 50% increase in their base firepower. The tactic is also giving you about 30% more of a benefit than the combined buffs of the Captain and Lieutenant, and is a whopping 178% better than just having a Captain nearby.

Well, non-librarian marine characters were useful for almost two months. Can't have that! I mean people might actually create fluffy armies of Space Marines being lead by their Captains, and where would we be then?

I see no reason to drop them from my lists though. out of 6 shots one will miss with a 1, rerollable thanks to a captain, and another one will miss, rerollable thanks to the Tactics. without the Captain I'd still have that miss. Sure, there will be some overlap (whenever you miss only one shot), but it's still pretty useful to bring a Captain.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gibs55 wrote:
Iron Hands tactic now includes tanks and they don't suffer the movement penalty when shooting heavy or assault weapons.

This just became way better and it was already pretty good.

I didn't see that anywhere though? It's certainly not part of the Chapter Tactic for Iron Hands.

Yeah it seems like some of the more specific chapter abilities are stratagems that give permament buffs to the army. Like the chapter master buff, or the iron hands vehicle buff. That seems really cool to me.

jcd386 wrote:
Yeah it seems like some of the more specific chapter abilities are stratagems that give permament buffs to the army. Like the chapter master buff, or the iron hands vehicle buff. That seems really cool to me.

Are they permanent though? I could easily imagine the IH buff to be 1 CP for 1 Tank or 2 CP for all tanks until the end of your turn for example. Nothing I've seen from GW so far would contradict (nor confirm it) that

nekooni wrote:

I see no reason to drop them from my lists though. out of 6 shots one will miss with a 1, rerollable thanks to a captain, and another one will miss, rerollable thanks to the Tactics. without the Captain I'd still have that miss. Sure, there will be some overlap (whenever you miss only one shot), but it's still pretty useful to bring a Captain.

Yeah, certainly. The tactic plays pretty nicely with a Captain for things like Devastator squads since you're still 50% likely to roll at least one "2", and then you're actually more likely to get use out of the tactic on the wound roll than you were without the Captain there. You can probably think about it as Captains are only about 2/3 as effective as normal for Salamander Devastators, but that's still not bad.

Gibs55 wrote:
Iron Hands tactic now includes tanks and they don't suffer the movement penalty when shooting heavy or assault weapons.

This just became way better and it was already pretty good.

I didn't read it that way. It seemed to me like they were reiterating that the tactic doesn't work on vehicles, and then saying that that's okay because the Iron Hands have a stratagem that's good for vehicles. The use of "normally" (or "usually" or whatever they said) is weird since it suggests exceptions, but they seemed to be saying that Iron Hands have one of the "normal" tactics. Someone else might have an exception.

^^ re-read the article and think you are probably right re-vehicles.

BrianDavion wrote:
according to the new chapter preview today Iron Hands get a stratigium that allows them to fire heavy weapons on the move without penalty. a warlord trait that grants extra attacks, and a relic weapon that is pretty solid.

looking at this it's clear to me that we should not judge based on CTs alone Chapter tactics are part of a wider picture, right now we're blind men trying to describe an elephant by feeling it.

Blind Man 1: I think it's a snake.

BM2: No, it's clearly a wall with some rope for climbing.

BM3: I think it might be a cow.

This is us atm, but these CT's are convincingly powerful. And until other codexes are released, they are potentially gamebreaking.

The prospect of Always On Strategems has me hopeful for something much better for my Crimson Fists. I reformulated my list to have two Intercessor Squads, so I am running a Battalion rather than two Vanguard Detachments. Hopefully there will be a good relic as well, but that will depend on what I have that can even take the relic.

I just realised what I am not happy with regarding the Imperial Fists Tactics. It is completely dependent on what your opponent brings. If your opponent doesn't bring a building (which NO ONE ever does), the second half is completely worthless. If they don't use cover or can't use cover, the first half is too. All of the other tactics are dependent on the Space Marine player doing stuff.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
The prospect of Always On Strategems has me hopeful for something much better for my Crimson Fists. I reformulated my list to have two Intercessor Squads, so I am running a Battalion rather than two Vanguard Detachments. Hopefully there will be a good relic as well, but that will depend on what I have that can even take the relic.

I just realised what I am not happy with regarding the Imperial Fists Tactics. It is completely dependent on what your opponent brings. If your opponent doesn't bring a building (which NO ONE ever does), the second half is completely worthless. If they don't use cover or can't use cover, the first half is too. All of the other tactics are dependent on the Space Marine player doing stuff.

How much different can CF get? their shtick is stern guard iirc and or wailing on orks.

the IF tactics... yeah the building ones suck. i was hoping they would do building and titanic considering a imperial knight is basically a walking building. ignore cover while meh on outside cover is still functioning as a shot. you dont ever get worse for taking IF CT.

 Desubot wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
The prospect of Always On Strategems has me hopeful for something much better for my Crimson Fists. I reformulated my list to have two Intercessor Squads, so I am running a Battalion rather than two Vanguard Detachments. Hopefully there will be a good relic as well, but that will depend on what I have that can even take the relic.

I just realised what I am not happy with regarding the Imperial Fists Tactics. It is completely dependent on what your opponent brings. If your opponent doesn't bring a building (which NO ONE ever does), the second half is completely worthless. If they don't use cover or can't use cover, the first half is too. All of the other tactics are dependent on the Space Marine player doing stuff.

How much different can CF get? their shtick is stern guard iirc and or wailing on orks.

the IF tactics... yeah the building ones suck. i was hoping they would do building and titanic considering a imperial knight is basically a walking building. ignore cover while meh on outside cover is still functioning as a shot. you dont ever get worse for taking IF CT.

I don't want them to get too different from Imperial Fists. From the sounds of it, they will still have the same Strategems as their parent legion. I am hoping for something that evokes Bolter Drill from 6e/7e. Someone put forth the idea that they could fire Rapid Fire weapons at maximum range for both shots. That would be pretty awesome and fluffy. Otherwise, their Tank Hunters ability hasn't really been touched on, neither has their legendary stubbornness.

I am not saying Ignore Cover is bad, but it is still not something that the IF player gets to influence. Regardless, I am sure the Strategems, Warlord Trait, and Relic will make up for it. People are rethinking Iron Hands now, it looks like.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
The prospect of Always On Strategems has me hopeful for something much better for my Crimson Fists. I reformulated my list to have two Intercessor Squads, so I am running a Battalion rather than two Vanguard Detachments. Hopefully there will be a good relic as well, but that will depend on what I have that can even take the relic.

I just realised what I am not happy with regarding the Imperial Fists Tactics. It is completely dependent on what your opponent brings. If your opponent doesn't bring a building (which NO ONE ever does), the second half is completely worthless. If they don't use cover or can't use cover, the first half is too. All of the other tactics are dependent on the Space Marine player doing stuff.

How much different can CF get? their shtick is stern guard iirc and or wailing on orks.

the IF tactics... yeah the building ones suck. i was hoping they would do building and titanic considering a imperial knight is basically a walking building. ignore cover while meh on outside cover is still functioning as a shot. you dont ever get worse for taking IF CT.

I don't want them to get too different from Imperial Fists. From the sounds of it, they will still have the same Strategems as their parent legion. I am hoping for something that evokes Bolter Drill from 6e/7e. Someone put forth the idea that they could fire Rapid Fire weapons at maximum range for both shots. That would be pretty awesome and fluffy. Otherwise, their Tank Hunters ability hasn't really been touched on, neither has their legendary stubbornness.

I am not saying Ignore Cover is bad, but it is still not something that the IF player gets to influence. Regardless, I am sure the Strategems, Warlord Trait, and Relic will make up for it. People are rethinking Iron Hands now, it looks like.

Yea I think Iron Hands just shot up to Salamanders level, Raven Guard is still probably king (just) until we learn more.

Gibs55 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
The prospect of Always On Strategems has me hopeful for something much better for my Crimson Fists. I reformulated my list to have two Intercessor Squads, so I am running a Battalion rather than two Vanguard Detachments. Hopefully there will be a good relic as well, but that will depend on what I have that can even take the relic.

I just realised what I am not happy with regarding the Imperial Fists Tactics. It is completely dependent on what your opponent brings. If your opponent doesn't bring a building (which NO ONE ever does), the second half is completely worthless. If they don't use cover or can't use cover, the first half is too. All of the other tactics are dependent on the Space Marine player doing stuff.

How much different can CF get? their shtick is stern guard iirc and or wailing on orks.

the IF tactics... yeah the building ones suck. i was hoping they would do building and titanic considering a imperial knight is basically a walking building. ignore cover while meh on outside cover is still functioning as a shot. you dont ever get worse for taking IF CT.

I don't want them to get too different from Imperial Fists. From the sounds of it, they will still have the same Strategems as their parent legion. I am hoping for something that evokes Bolter Drill from 6e/7e. Someone put forth the idea that they could fire Rapid Fire weapons at maximum range for both shots. That would be pretty awesome and fluffy. Otherwise, their Tank Hunters ability hasn't really been touched on, neither has their legendary stubbornness.

I am not saying Ignore Cover is bad, but it is still not something that the IF player gets to influence. Regardless, I am sure the Strategems, Warlord Trait, and Relic will make up for it. People are rethinking Iron Hands now, it looks like.

Yea I think Iron Hands just shot up to Salamanders level, Raven Guard is still probably king (just) until we learn more.

I disagree. The CT of Iron Hands is just plain bad. The strategem is more of a CT than the CT and who knows what restrictions it will have. The Strategem just lets IH not operate at a complete disadvantage. And that Relic? Ugh utter garbage. I would rate IH just below UM now and UM are mid pack I feel. Only BT and IF have a worse CT imo. IF CT is either really good or garbage so it is really hard to rate, though based on my table it would be really good. Today was one of the rare days where my friends and I all had a day off so we spent it playing 40k using the previewed rules and indicies.

My list was this for 2k points games:
3 Tech Marines with Conversion Beamer, Power axe (one I used as the Axe of Medusa), boltgun
3 Venerable Dreadnoughts with x2 Twin Autocannon
3 Tactical Squads with flamer, combi-flamer, power axe
3 Razorbacks with Lascannon and Twin Plasma
2 Landspeeders with Multi-melta, Multi-melta
2 Predators with Predator Autocannon and 2 Lascannons

Ended up being 1994 points. I called it good enough for what we were doing(and Compensates for not knowing the price cost of the junk relic)

I won against the BT (shot them to pieces for the most part), just eeked a win out against the Ork player (that was a fun game), and barely against the Salamanders (he failed some critical rolls). It wasn't even a game against the RG, IF, and Guard. Semi-Close match between the UM, but his Guilliman (suicide Landspeeders failed to kill him rip) won the game for him.

What I took away from these games is that for the most part the CT are decent and not too powerful and strategems are where the IH shine. However the BT need a better CT and the IH still needs their CT buffed a little but not as much as I feared. It should be an army wide 6 roll with either a 6 reroll or a 5 and 6 for bikes, infantry, and dreads. Right now as far as CT are concerned the Venerable Dreadnought is our only tool, and with strategems the only one that truly benefits from both rules. Too bad they don't have better weapon options. The IH Strategem makes several vehicles just worth their points, though I miss being able to spam 12+ vehicles. I found myself in envy of the RG and their survivability. The fact that I love tanks really helped me last as long as I did. Conscripts when used correctly are extremely good. The IF are really good on a large table with lots of terrain and cover (we play on an 8 ft by 6ft table). I am feeling like the new sweet spot for marines, especially a vehicle heavy army, will be above 2k points.

EDIT: Forgot to mention that the lack of a Unique Character with more special rules really hurts the IH. I thought about running a captain or librarian, but what would they buff that would be a good investment for the points?

EDIT 2: Didn't mention that the BT player brought a pure fluff list with 3 max size crusader squads using 3 land raid crusaders led by Helbrecht and Grimaldus.

The relic is better than a Relic Blade. I don't see how it is garbage.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
The relic is better than a Relic Blade. I don't see how it is garbage.

I hate all relics that are simply a better melee weapon. I want something that is a force multiplier or somehow affects more than the model using it. Was not a fan of the Gorgon Chain either. Though my meta forced me into it because i like to win once and a while.

 NorseSig wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
The relic is better than a Relic Blade. I don't see how it is garbage.

I hate all relics that are simply a better melee weapon. I want something that is a force multiplier or somehow affects more than the model using it. Was not a fan of the Gorgon Chain either. Though my meta forced me into it because i like to win once and a while.

This basically. Sword+1 is bland and boring, especially if every relic is some variation of that or armor+1.

Sometimes it's the oddball items or the ones with odd tactical applications that are the most fun. From the Veil of Darkness to the Astral Grimoire, or (my personal favorite) the Scrolls of Magnus, relics that do something different rather than the same thing + 1 are more memorable!

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
The relic is better than a Relic Blade. I don't see how it is garbage.

It's a consistent Relic Blade. In the same manner you're paying for a Chainfist not just for the additional AP (which comes in handy in occasion) but for the consistent damage you can rely on. That's a pretty awesome deal in my book.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 NorseSig wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
The relic is better than a Relic Blade. I don't see how it is garbage.

I hate all relics that are simply a better melee weapon. I want something that is a force multiplier or somehow affects more than the model using it. Was not a fan of the Gorgon Chain either. Though my meta forced me into it because i like to win once and a while.

I'm sorry to hear that. I don't really care either. It's kinda granted everyone will get a Relic that will be a weapon, because weapons you can customize and convert are cool.

IDK. I wish my canoness would get access to something akin to Relics like she used to be able to, before Space Marines stole her Blessed Weapon from her in 5th edition and called it a Relic Blade. She hasn't had anything stronger than a damn eviscerator since then, and even lost her jump pack :(

Even a Sword+1 beatstick is at least better than nothing at all.

 NorseSig wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
The relic is better than a Relic Blade. I don't see how it is garbage.

I hate all relics that are simply a better melee weapon. I want something that is a force multiplier or somehow affects more than the model using it. Was not a fan of the Gorgon Chain either. Though my meta forced me into it because i like to win once and a while.

So its garbage because you don't like it.........ok

Seems like a good weapon stats wise and will be fun to convert on models for sure.

Gibs55 wrote:

 NorseSig wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
The relic is better than a Relic Blade. I don't see how it is garbage.

I hate all relics that are simply a better melee weapon. I want something that is a force multiplier or somehow affects more than the model using it. Was not a fan of the Gorgon Chain either. Though my meta forced me into it because i like to win once and a while.

So its garbage because you don't like it.........ok

Seems like a good weapon stats wise and will be fun to convert on models for sure.

I think he's made up his mind to decide Iron Hands are screwed, rather then look at how they can be used.