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Tac marines get brought up as a counter to conscripts.

Besides the answer to the original queston is pretty much agreed by everyone that if you nerf conscripts guard players take infantry and don't bat an eyelid and half the players don't run scion and those that do will take them until you make them unplayable

Dakka's Law: All threads will eventually feature a reference to Tactical Marines' Stat Line

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
You know, come to think of it, it is more than a little odd that scions just get to deep strike for free, whereas space marines have to pay ~100 for a drop pod.

Scions are 3 ppm more than veterans. They get +1 to their Save and deep strike for that.

What I am interested in, is trying out some Gryphonne Patten Chimeras. I used six of them last edition to great effect. Really want to try some Plasma/Melta vets in them and see how they do this edition. Although I will miss doing Plasma drive-bys with them since the FW ones last edition still allowed guys to shoot out of the top.

I've used them a few times. But my enemy turned out to be Tau and Space Wolves. So didn't even get to use their special ability!

I haven't used Chimeras yet. Once you add up the weapons, they get pretty expensive. If GW made our transports more reasonably priced and scion weapons a more fairly priced, you would start seeing more lists with Mechanized and Airborne elements.

Another simple fix is to bring back tactical reserves. I would drop scions from my list in a heartbeat if I could hold a couple Valkyries full of Catachans in reserve!

Right now our choices are:
1. Turtle on our objectives and drop scions on their objectives after softening the enemy up.
2. Turtle HARD on our objectives and OBLITERATE the enemy off of their objectives.

This all boils down to the sheer inefficiency of using mechanized infantry to move up the field compared to scions.

Transports are expensive.
Transports force you to be deployed on the table, therefore making you targetable.
Transports move relatively fast, but their movements are somewhat predictable.

Scions are a steal for their price.
Scions deploy off the table, so can't be targeted before they arrive where they are needed.
Scions are more unpredictable. They can land wherever there is room. They force opponents (most of whom want to get in our face) to re-think advancing everything up the board too quickly.

The only advantage transports currently provide is that they are the most reliable way to deliver flamers within their 8" range.

 CplPunishment wrote:
I haven't used Chimeras yet. Once you add up the weapons, they get pretty expensive. If GW made our transports more reasonably priced and scion weapons a more fairly priced, you would start seeing more lists with Mechanized and Airborne elements.

Another simple fix is to bring back tactical reserves. I would drop scions from my list in a heartbeat if I could hold a couple Valkyries full of Catachans in reserve!

Right now our choices are:
1. Turtle on our objectives and drop scions on their objectives after softening the enemy up.
2. Turtle HARD on our objectives and OBLITERATE the enemy off of their objectives.

This all boils down to the sheer inefficiency of using mechanized infantry to move up the field compared to scions.

Transports are expensive.
Transports force you to be deployed on the table, therefore making you targetable.
Transports move relatively fast, but their movements are somewhat predictable.

Scions are a steal for their price.
Scions deploy off the table, so can't be targeted before they arrive where they are needed.
Scions are more unpredictable. They can land wherever there is room. They force opponents (most of whom want to get in our face) to re-think advancing everything up the board too quickly.

The only advantage transports currently provide is that they are the most reliable way to deliver flamers within their 8" range.

Something does seem wrong when it takes 600 points of transports to move 240 points worth of men. Those kind of costs basically ruin any kind of mechanized infantry list, which leaves us, like you say, turtling in our deployment and dropping scions everywhere.

 Otto von Bludd wrote:

 CplPunishment wrote:
I haven't used Chimeras yet. Once you add up the weapons, they get pretty expensive. If GW made our transports more reasonably priced and scion weapons a more fairly priced, you would start seeing more lists with Mechanized and Airborne elements.

Another simple fix is to bring back tactical reserves. I would drop scions from my list in a heartbeat if I could hold a couple Valkyries full of Catachans in reserve!

Right now our choices are:
1. Turtle on our objectives and drop scions on their objectives after softening the enemy up.
2. Turtle HARD on our objectives and OBLITERATE the enemy off of their objectives.

This all boils down to the sheer inefficiency of using mechanized infantry to move up the field compared to scions.

Transports are expensive.
Transports force you to be deployed on the table, therefore making you targetable.
Transports move relatively fast, but their movements are somewhat predictable.

Scions are a steal for their price.
Scions deploy off the table, so can't be targeted before they arrive where they are needed.
Scions are more unpredictable. They can land wherever there is room. They force opponents (most of whom want to get in our face) to re-think advancing everything up the board too quickly.

The only advantage transports currently provide is that they are the most reliable way to deliver flamers within their 8" range.

Something does seem wrong when it takes 600 points of transports to move 240 points worth of men. Those kind of costs basically ruin any kind of mechanized infantry list, which leaves us, like you say, turtling in our deployment and dropping scions everywhere.

Exactly. I don't know what they were thinking when they priced transports. From what I understand, this isn't a problem exclusive to the Guard either. Hopefully codices will lower their cost.

Well, here to report on how my Guard did without any Scions or Conscripts. Played 1,500 points against Daemons, it was a smashing success for the Tallarn 325th Recon Company.

It didn't help I stole the initiative, killed 4 of his 7 dudes on Juggernauts, crippled his Soul Grinder, and that was it. I deployed pretty far back since I had 21 deployments and wasn't expected to Seize the Initiative. But, I always spend a Command Point to go for it... because why not? Getting in some early shots with an Imperial army is generally a plus.

His Turn 1 he advanced almost everything and killed a single Guardsmen with the Soul Grinder and managed to Smite a dude or two.

Turn 2 deleted the last of the Juggernauts, clearing out the middle of the board and started hitting his other dudes on the left to try and make the charges I receive on his turn just a little less terrible.

By the end of my Turn 4, all he had left was just a crippled Soul Grinder. He called the game since there was no way he would be able to stop my guys advancing to his objective, and the Soul Grinder had 3-4 wounds left.

MVP of the game, Yarrick. Every unit within 6" of him overcharged every Plasma shot. I lost a single dude to my own Plasma all game. It was glorious. It didn't help that I rolled a large amount of 6's on Overwatch, gunning down 3 Fiends with just Guardsmen on his Turn 3. Guard orders are great! This was my first game with them since the last 3 models needed for my 2,000 (and my 1,500) showed up yesterday. I hate to say it, I don't see myself playing my Blood Angels any time soon.

The Leman Russ Executioners didn't do to terribly much, but I deployed them first. My opponent was scared of them for some reason and deployed a lot of his stuff to my left to try and stay out of line of sight. But, Yarrick sitting in between 3 Heavy Weapon Squads with Missile Launchers and 3 Infantry Squads with Plasma and Missile Launcher was so good, and very order efficient, besides "Get back in the fight!" the only order I used on my entire left flank was "Bring it down!".

Yarrick is surprisingly good in combat too, a heroic intervention into a Fiends squad ended up with him cutting down 2 of them and forced him to go after a Company Commander and a Missile Squad to try and reduce incoming fire next turn, leaving Yarrick free from harm and he just walked out of combat my following turn. Without Conscripts, I almost don't see a need for the Commissars though, Yarrick was the Warlord and took the +1 Leadership trait, and Coteaz is Ld10, and allows Imperium units to use his as well.

 ChargerIIC wrote:
Dakka's Law: All threads will eventually feature a reference to Tactical Marines' Stat Line

Yeeeeep.

 CplPunishment wrote:
Exactly. I don't know what they were thinking when they priced transports. From what I understand, this isn't a problem exclusive to the Guard either. Hopefully codices will lower their cost.

I think they priced the Rhino according to its durability to ranged anti-tank--and for how durable it is, it's pretty fairly priced-- then priced every other Imperial transport based on its comparison to the rhino somehow.

Which doesn't work very well for Guard...

 Blackie wrote:

sossen wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
SM (ultramarines at least) are still in the top 5 armies, if not top 3 or better. They win tournaments even without the 5+ stormravens lists.

Do you have any links to lists that won after the FAQ? Would like to see what they run.

http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2017/08/10/top-itc-tournament-lists-july-2017/

The following 3 lists were SM without stormravens:

http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Thomas-Hegstrom-Oakey-3rd-Overall-Boise-Cup-GT-2017.pdf
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/Colin-McDade-2nd-Overall-Warzone-Houston-2017.pdf
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/Cyle-Thompson-2nd-Overall-Slaughterhouse-2017.pdf

All based around guilliman re-rolls. 2nd and 3rd places, which are huge results in this kind of tournaments, with lots of power players, and ending 1st, 2nd or 3rd is just a matter of luck or player's skills, because lists in top positions have basically the same efficiency. I bet in other non official tournaments SM are still winning a lot.

One of those is pure SM, and that one was before people glommed on to how good conscripts are.

 Melissia wrote:

 ChargerIIC wrote:
Dakka's Law: All threads will eventually feature a reference to Tactical Marines' Stat Line

Yeeeeep.

 CplPunishment wrote:
Exactly. I don't know what they were thinking when they priced transports. From what I understand, this isn't a problem exclusive to the Guard either. Hopefully codices will lower their cost.

I think they priced the Rhino according to its durability to ranged anti-tank--and for how durable it is, it's pretty fairly priced-- then priced every other Imperial transport based on its comparison to the rhino somehow.

Which doesn't work very well for Guard...

Yeah, IG has the same problem the Orks do. The utility offered by the mobility of an 100 point vehicle feels lessened when you're transporting a 40 point unit. Its hard to get your bang for that buck.

 argonak wrote:

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
You know, come to think of it, it is more than a little odd that scions just get to deep strike for free, whereas space marines have to pay ~100 for a drop pod.

Scions are 3 ppm more than veterans. They get +1 to their Save and deep strike for that.

They also will not get access to <Regiment> rules and have more limited access to orders from a source that is lacking a 5++ for more points. That will be part of the balancing factor for Scions if they aren't getting to play with the cool regiment rules, which hopefully will benefit classic play styles i.e. Steel Legion = Transports, Catachan = Cover/Ambush, Cadians = Leadership/Shooting (aka the Ultramarines of Guard), Vostroyans = mastercrafted weapons (ala Salamanders?). We have seen a little bit of this in the FW book with DKoK getting their Cult of Sacrifice rule to ignore Morale from shooting (which is HUGE) and Elysian getting to deep strike.

 generalchaos34 wrote:

 argonak wrote:

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
You know, come to think of it, it is more than a little odd that scions just get to deep strike for free, whereas space marines have to pay ~100 for a drop pod.

Scions are 3 ppm more than veterans. They get +1 to their Save and deep strike for that.

They also will not get access to <Regiment> rules and have more limited access to orders from a source that is lacking a 5++ for more points. That will be part of the balancing factor for Scions if they aren't getting to play with the cool regiment rules, which hopefully will benefit classic play styles i.e. Steel Legion = Transports, Catachan = Cover/Ambush, Cadians = Leadership/Shooting (aka the Ultramarines of Guard), Vostroyans = mastercrafted weapons (ala Salamanders?). We have seen a little bit of this in the FW book with DKoK getting their Cult of Sacrifice rule to ignore Morale from shooting (which is HUGE) and Elysian getting to deep strike.

I will be extremely annoyed if they implement regiment tactics in that fashion. It will also cripple:
Ogryns.
Ratlings.
Valkyries.
Priests.
Engineerseers.
Commissars.
Pyskers.

 argonak wrote:

 generalchaos34 wrote:

 argonak wrote:

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
You know, come to think of it, it is more than a little odd that scions just get to deep strike for free, whereas space marines have to pay ~100 for a drop pod.

Scions are 3 ppm more than veterans. They get +1 to their Save and deep strike for that.

They also will not get access to <Regiment> rules and have more limited access to orders from a source that is lacking a 5++ for more points. That will be part of the balancing factor for Scions if they aren't getting to play with the cool regiment rules, which hopefully will benefit classic play styles i.e. Steel Legion = Transports, Catachan = Cover/Ambush, Cadians = Leadership/Shooting (aka the Ultramarines of Guard), Vostroyans = mastercrafted weapons (ala Salamanders?). We have seen a little bit of this in the FW book with DKoK getting their Cult of Sacrifice rule to ignore Morale from shooting (which is HUGE) and Elysian getting to deep strike.

I will be extremely annoyed if they implement regiment tactics in that fashion. It will also cripple:
Ogryns.
Ratlings.
Valkyries.
Priests.
Engineerseers.
Commissars.
Pyskers.

I kinda see this as how it will go, all those units are auxiliary of some kind and aren't permanently attached to a particular regiment, esp enginseers, priests and psykers. It may be an interesting balancing factor, esp if they give those options some sort of points reduction if taking them makes you lose Regiment. Also I hope like Black Templar the Catachans aren't allowed to get Commissars =P

But catach an do get assigned them in the fluff. They occasionally end up dead but they get assigned them

U02dah4 wrote:
But catach an do get assigned them in the fluff. They occasionally end up dead but they get assigned them

Oh they do get assigned, I have a feeling that outside of a storied few like Colonel Greiss most Commissars will make it out of their first deployment, its hard to intimidate a guy whose whole family was eaten by carniverous plants. That must be how the Commissariat gets rid of their screw ups =P

I would love GW forever if they had a rule just disallowing them altogether or if on deployment on a 6+ your commissar has a chance to get fragged (of course this would mean that the catachan regiment rule would be morale based to compensate, or just really really good) actually, a rule that makes Catachan incapable of taking conscripts would make more sense since a catachan soldier has seen more horrors than the most grizzeled vet see their entire career by their 10th birthday.

Sorry if this was talked about here in the thread, did a general skimming and didn't see it, but what are people's opinions on the catachan characters? I converted up Straken and Harker for my catachan guard and Straken seems to be a great support and good support should the squad's hes by get charged, he hits really hard! and Harker I'm contemplating to have him just sit by heavy weapon teams and just pewpewpew.

 Cptskillet wrote:
Sorry if this was talked about here in the thread, did a general skimming and didn't see it, but what are people's opinions on the catachan characters? I converted up Straken and Harker for my catachan guard and Straken seems to be a great support and good support should the squad's hes by get charged, he hits really hard! and Harker I'm contemplating to have him just sit by heavy weapon teams and just pewpewpew.

Harker is awesome. Strakken is good but you should focus on CC if you're going to bring him, which frankly isn't a guardsman's strength. Straken should always bring a priest or two to keep himself company and give another attack to those around him.

Unfortunately even if you're giving guardsmen 3 attacks, they're still guardsmen and they hit at 4+ with s3 and no ap. Which isn't going to frighten anyone.

Exactly. At that point, with orders, their lasguns are superior. Only reason to take a priest is to keep him close to Bullgryn. And Straken doesn't even help them with extra attacks. He's a pretty solid character on his own though.

 Colonel Cross wrote:
Exactly. At that point, with orders, their lasguns are superior. Only reason to take a priest is to keep him close to Bullgryn. And Straken doesn't even help them with extra attacks. He's a pretty solid character on his own though.

I wonder if we'll see anything extra combat oriented for catachans? Maybe their big knives will count as chainswords or something. The problem I have with Fix Bayonets, is that it requires you to have already been charged, and still be alive. Most of the time when my guard get charged, they get dead. And if anything is alive, its falling back so everyone else can shoot at the combat unit.

Fix Bayonets should give a bonus in the combat phase, not the shooting phase. Maybe let any unit who gets that order fight twice in the fight phase. Right now its just always inferior to shooting. And the only unit who might want it, Ogryns, can't get it.

Yeah and that is why I've not used that order even once yet.

 Cptskillet wrote:
Sorry if this was talked about here in the thread, did a general skimming and didn't see it, but what are people's opinions on the catachan characters? I converted up Straken and Harker for my catachan guard and Straken seems to be a great support and good support should the squad's hes by get charged, he hits really hard! and Harker I'm contemplating to have him just sit by heavy weapon teams and just pewpewpew.

Harker is great. Keep in mind that he buffs ANY unit that you give the CATACHAN regimental keyword, This includes infantry, vehicles and HIMSELF. Also, Baneblades. Another pro-tip: re-roll 1s and plasma were made for each other. Long story short, he will do wonderful things for anything nearby with big guns,

Straken is nice too. Keep in mind that his +1 attack in the fight phase buff applies to him as well. A nearby priest is a solid investment (OT, priests get free bolt pistols currently) because it will give him yet another attack. That's 6 S6 melee attacks at 2D each, hitting on 2+. Don't forget that he rerolls failed wounds when fighting MONSTERS. In my opinion he is great to have hanging behind the frontlines for heroic interventions.

His ONLY downside is that his melee attacks are only AP -1, which means even successful wounds can be easily ignored. This is mitigated by the fact that he can potentially dish out 17 attacks in a single game turn. He does 6 in each player's fight phase (assuming he is in combat near a priest) and can order himself to "fix bayonets" at the start of the shooting phase for 5 more attacks (assuming a priest, and keeping in mind that his own +1 attack buff is only applicable in the fight phase). He can then shoot his plasma pistol in close quarters during the shooting phase. Overcharge at your own risk (In other words, is losing Straken worth it???).

Keep in mind that some people debate whether or not officers can issue orders to themselves. RAW clearly says they can do this, but there are still quite a few out there who insist you can't.

Good enough.

Infantry squads can hold the line adequately enough. Conscripts are just better.

With the firepower we can muster, not a real problem.

I mean hey, we can have a 3d6 4/0/0 27 pts mortar squad that shoots at 48 and doesn't need to see the target to do so. Dump an officer near-by for re-rolls and it'll work well, still hitting on 4+, but wounding most infantry on 3/4s rather than the usual Guard's 4/5. Basiliks' are the same but bigger and better, but no orders. Heavy bolters are Highway robbery as well for what they are, and add an officer and it's crazy good, stll can hurt most vehicules on 5s.

Sentinels are something that I use as well, light vehicules sure, but it doesn't go lamer he it goes weaker. Scouts with heavy flamers and chainsaws did served me well and seems to draw attention as well, keeping fire away from my infantry squads. Worse case they are mobile, tougher heavy weapons platform.

I used Ratling a few times, but the FAQ sorta removed the scawny nature of them, so they lost some colour a bit. Still forces my opponenet to watch his characters. SWS with snipers are cheap and effective at that too.

At any rate, The Guard's strength and survival lies in what it was before; it's leaders and support units (commissars and the like), adding a Command Squad with a Flag and having a Vox-network just make it just tougher.

 argonak wrote:

 generalchaos34 wrote:

 argonak wrote:

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
You know, come to think of it, it is more than a little odd that scions just get to deep strike for free, whereas space marines have to pay ~100 for a drop pod.

Scions are 3 ppm more than veterans. They get +1 to their Save and deep strike for that.

They also will not get access to <Regiment> rules and have more limited access to orders from a source that is lacking a 5++ for more points. That will be part of the balancing factor for Scions if they aren't getting to play with the cool regiment rules, which hopefully will benefit classic play styles i.e. Steel Legion = Transports, Catachan = Cover/Ambush, Cadians = Leadership/Shooting (aka the Ultramarines of Guard), Vostroyans = mastercrafted weapons (ala Salamanders?). We have seen a little bit of this in the FW book with DKoK getting their Cult of Sacrifice rule to ignore Morale from shooting (which is HUGE) and Elysian getting to deep strike.

I will be extremely annoyed if they implement regiment tactics in that fashion. It will also cripple:
Ogryns.
Ratlings.
Valkyries.
Priests.
Engineerseers.
Commissars.
Psykers.

Regardless of any buffs or nerfs.
Do we really need that much differentiation as the index 2 shows? I mean except for the enginseers and the priests what else army would use those units other than Astra Militarum?
And if some units should be excluded of orders then a 1 sentence rule on their sheet would be an easy solution. "The unit cannot receive any orders."

Previous page had a bunch of vulture/vendetta/Valkyrie talk.

boyz.. BOYZ... Friggin' THUNDERBOLT.

8 shots of S7 AP-1 2D
2 shots of S9 AP-3 D6
4 shots of S8 AP-2 D6

All on a BS 3+ , 15W 3+ hard to hit platform.

Just ordered one from forgeworld.

Yeah but it's always hitting on 4s since it has to move every turn.

 Colonel Cross wrote:
Yeah but it's always hitting on 4s since it has to move every turn.

So the probability is that 4 autocannons, 1 lascannon and 2 krak missiles hit each turn. That will put a respectable amount of wounds on most targets. I would get one if I had the cash!