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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Blackie wrote:
Da jump is only one use per turn though. Having 5+ fast units on the ground is completely different.

Orks vehicles shouldn't compete with da jump and in fact they don't since 1-2 transports have never been a good built for an ork list. You go heavy on transports and vehicles (or walkers) or you don't use them at all. Mixing footsloggers and vehicles should be a thing but again there would be multiple vehicles anyway in the list.

Trukk boyz aren't poor because of da jump, not only at least, they're a poor choice because other than 30-40 teleported boyz we can also make use of up to 90 stormboyz. And kommandos arriving anywhere from turn 2.

With the current state of things a 2000 points ork list that relies heavily on transports, vehicles and/or walkers should get massive points reductions (like 500ish points) other than clan bonuses, relics, stratagems, traits, etc...In fact basically 90% of the codex should be 25-50% cheaper.
'

I agree, but lets do the math on this, Stormboyz I would argue they are about equal to regular boyz, maybe even giving the edge to regular boyz point for point. So with that in mind a Stormboy is 2pts more then a regular boy, this 2pts only gives him 12in movement, that is it, therefore a Trukk, which gives 12in movement, but provides added durability (a bit) should cost a similar points cost. So 12 boyz = 24pts, now clearly the durability needs to be factored in so lets DOUBLE that. 48pts. I include the weapons cost because a Big shoota or random rocket is basically useless, if you disagree I would happily NOT take any weapons on this thing. So 48pts is a 34pt price drop on trukkz and I would argue this wouldn't even fix them entirely but that it would be a huge step in the right direction and make them at least playable. As it stands for Trukk Boyz, each boy in the trukk is equivalent to 13ppm (12 boyz = 72pts, trukk = 82+ Boyz = 154/12 =12.83). Correct me if I am wrong but 13ppm is what a SM costs. Now while a SM is definitely slower then Trukk boyz they are infinitely more durable and better overall then 12 Trukk boyz. Hell in CC 12 trukk boyz are only a bit better then 10 Space Marines, and even then if you factor in the next turns pistol shooting I would give it to the SMs).

So this boils down to what the appropriate cost of a trukk is, and again, it clearly isn't 82ppm, I don't think 48is low enough either but at that point we can get into fine tuning and using the CA or FAQ to fix it as needed instead of leaving it at 82pts for an entire year.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 davou wrote:
the +1 attack for 20-+ models is huge for me. I prefer to play MSU, and all the army wide buffs for orks play into taking huge blobs.... None of which fit into trukks.

Thats the worst sin of the trukk design IMO, if you want to use them, you have to pay their arbitrarily high cost and lose Mob rule and +1 attack.


I couldn't agree more. It basically negates the entire MSU or specialist play style for Orkz

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/12 13:34:57


 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






SemperMortis wrote:
Well of course, you are clearly talking about last edition where trukk spam was not bad. But here's the thing, at a tournament competitive level, I didn't even like trukkz, at 30pts (35 with a ram) I thought they were too flimsy and lacked purpose so I tended to not take them and instead relied on Wagonz. So at 30pts I thought they were over priced, at 82, i haven't even bothered to field them. But in this edition, the scenario you are describing would be 10 Trukkz, 6 of boyz, 3 of manz and 1 of bustas. Those 10 trukkz cost you 820pts. the boyz cost you 432pts without upgrades The manz cost you 378 for 3 units of 3 naked, and the 1 unit of 10 bustas with 2 squigs is 190. that is 1820pts without the required HQ choice for 10 Trukkz. Now if Manz were appropriately priced, if Tankbustas were appropriately priced and if Trukkz cost 40-45pts (about where they should be) this list would have easily another 400-500pts to work with and would actually be decent if not competitive. But as it stands, I will continue to run my list with Weirdboyz and just use Da Jump because none of our transports are worth taking except as a shooting platform.


I wasn't talking about running that army with the current index rules and points costs. My point was that trukk suffer mostly from there not being any useful passengers for them. TB in trukks have shown up in many well-placing ork lists all over the place, since they are weak against the same weapons KMK and dakka jets are. That's where you get your target saturation from.

Dropping trukks down to half their point cost is ridiculous though. That would put battlewagons at 80 points, and you could do silly things like just buy 10 trukks for the heck of it and wall off parts of the battlefield.
There is no way a model as durable as a trukk is going to be 40-45 points without breaking the game. In 7th edition you could lose 10 trukks in turn one, there is no way in hell for that happening in 8th.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/12 13:45:44


7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. 
   
Made in us
Nasty Nob






 Jidmah wrote:


Dropping trukks down to half their point cost is ridiculous though.


Agree; trukks dont need a points drop, they need some kind of rules that account for their cost. Something like boarding planks allowing a move then dismebark. Having grot gunners for an additional point of BS, or allowing them to explode when they are destroyed and on a 4 plus the controlling player can drive them 6 inches before doing so.

And boys need something baked in that incentivizes smaller mobs.

ERJAK wrote:


The fluff is like ketchup and mustard on a burger. Yes it's desirable, yes it makes things better, but no it doesn't fundamentally change what you're eating and no you shouldn't just drown the whole meal in it.

 
   
Made in ru
!!Goffik Rocker!!






 Daedalus81 wrote:
 koooaei wrote:
Mob up would have been amazing if it had no restriction on unit profile. Not as amazing as is. There'd be a reason to actually use meganobz.


I think it would have been great, but maybe 2+ CP for that otherwise you'll have MANZ buried lick ticks in a mob with unwavering morale. Like...jump full sized Manz. Mob them up at the end of move phase with a unit that's already near charging. Gross.

Maybe i'm just over thinking it.


You can't mob up after da jump. Mobbing up happens at the end of the movement phase.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 davou wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:


Dropping trukks down to half their point cost is ridiculous though.


Agree; trukks dont need a points drop, they need some kind of rules that account for their cost. Something like boarding planks allowing a move then dismebark. Having grot gunners for an additional point of BS, or allowing them to explode when they are destroyed and on a 4 plus the controlling player can drive them 6 inches before doing so.

And boys need something baked in that incentivizes smaller mobs.


I like these ideas...all of them. Plus as you mention, we need a major incentive to smaller units of boyz and we need a fix to our specialist units like burnas and Meganobz. Otherwise we will have a good transport with nothing worth transporting. If you REALLY wanted to keep them the same cost though (76pts without any upgrades) you need to make a lot of those upgrade to the trukk free. Because again, if we are talking about bringing a Trukk heavy list (6-10) you are talking about a fairly substantial investment in those transports.

 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
Made in vn
Battlefortress Driver with Krusha Wheel






Orrrrrr... we make the trukks cheap and the upgrades cost more to the point it's the orginal price. Therefore, if you want a cheap trukk for 1 unit it's there but if you want a god trukk you have the option for that as well.
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






Eh, I could see a -10 on the trukk but not -20 or more.

It's not like those trukks do nothing after dropping their payload like in previous editions - they can force units to fall back, prevent overwatch, tank characters and even sometimes kill a model or two.

7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Virginia, USA

Trukks need to be much cheaper to make them worth taking (30-40 pts). To limit the ability to spam trucks (to lock things up in cc or block access), they should be a unit upgrade (like Eldar weapon teams). That would keep them with their unit and let the orks use the truck as mobile cover.
   
Made in it
Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

It's not only a matter of points, there's also the lack of synergies and bonuses that other armies have thanks to codex and we haven't that must be factored in. Cheaper trukks with stratagems or clan bonuses that buff the choice of fielding spead freaks is what we need, not a pure spam of cheap vehicles.

I agree that trukks and other stuff shouldn't be highly spammable but fielding 7-8 transports in an ork list should be legit, not game breaking.

Drukhari can easily have that many transports with venoms and raiders being viable and useful even in high numbes plus the flyers or ravagers as gunboats; I tipycally play with 10 vehicles myself and there's nothing overpowered in that.

 Jidmah wrote:
Eh, I could see a -10 on the trukk but not -20 or more.



Well, a rhino is 72 points and way tougher than a trukks. No one complains about rhinos. Drukhari have venoms which are the trukks equivalent since they're designed for MSU style, just like trukks, and they're 65ppm with better weapons than trukks, less W but -1 to hit and 5+ invuln. I honestly can't see why trukks shouldn't be 20-30 points cheaper.


If you want 70 points trukks or 150 points BWs it's ok, just give them more wounds, more/better weapons, and add more buffs to the units inside. I'd accept a 70ppm trukk if it comes with 5 big shootas included in that cost.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/05/13 09:00:26


 
   
Made in ru
!!Goffik Rocker!!






 Jidmah wrote:
Eh, I could see a -10 on the trukk but not -20 or more.

It's not like those trukks do nothing after dropping their payload like in previous editions - they can force units to fall back, prevent overwatch, tank characters and even sometimes kill a model or two.


They provided cover and scored in previous editions. To be honest, i prefered empty trukks to then-popular koptas. And they did work better for me. Much better in fact. Bully boyz loved spare trukks.
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






 Blackie wrote:
IWell, a rhino is 72 points and way tougher than a trukks.

They aren't that much tougher at all. In practice, the main difference is that the trukk takes more damage from anti-infantry weaponry due to worse armor and toughness. When people are pointing S8+ weaponry at them, rhinos don't die any slower than trukks, thanks to ramshackle compensating for the missing armor. Against AP-4 weapons like eldar lances or melta the trukk is even more durable than a rhino.

No one complains about rhinos. Drukhari have venoms which are the trukks equivalent since they're designed for MSU style, just like trukks, and they're 65ppm with better weapons than trukks, less W but -1 to hit and 5+ invuln. I honestly can't see why trukks shouldn't be 20-30 points cheaper.

Venoms are W6 T5 trukks are W10 T6, you are basically combaring a warbuggy to a rhino, the difference is huge.
If trukks were W6 as well, sure 40 points wouldn't be an issue. I doubt that GW would do such a massive change to a dataslate though - they a haven't done it for any other army.

If you want 70 points trukks or 150 points BWs it's ok, just give them more wounds, more/better weapons, and add more buffs to the units inside. I'd accept a 70ppm trukk if it comes with 5 big shootas included in that cost.

A trukk with big shoota and wrekin' ball is definitely worth ~70 points. You really don't get anything a lot worse than a rhino for your points.

7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. 
   
Made in it
Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

 Jidmah wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
IWell, a rhino is 72 points and way tougher than a trukks.

They aren't that much tougher at all. In practice, the main difference is that the trukk takes more damage from anti-infantry weaponry due to worse armor and toughness. When people are pointing S8+ weaponry at them, rhinos don't die any slower than trukks, thanks to ramshackle compensating for the missing armor. Against AP-4 weapons like eldar lances or melta the trukk is even more durable than a rhino.


Yeah you're absolutely right, but against weapons that are AP-1, -2 or nothing the 3+ save matters, not to mention the -1 to hit in first turn that rhinos usually have and trukks don't. T7 is also better against S6 and S7 weapons, which are not extremely common but do exist. The ability of self repairing is usually more efficient than ramshackle.

 Jidmah wrote:
No one complains about rhinos. Drukhari have venoms which are the trukks equivalent since they're designed for MSU style, just like trukks, and they're 65ppm with better weapons than trukks, less W but -1 to hit and 5+ invuln. I honestly can't see why trukks shouldn't be 20-30 points cheaper.

Venoms are W6 T5 trukks are W10 T6, you are basically combaring a warbuggy to a rhino, the difference is huge.
If trukks were W6 as well, sure 40 points wouldn't be an issue. I doubt that GW would do such a massive change to a dataslate though - they a haven't done it for any other army.

W6, T5, 4+ save but also 5+ invuln and -1 to hit is pretty similar to W10, T6 and 4+ save. Probably even better. Black Heart venoms can also ignore wounds on 6+ in addition of other layers.

They also work for carrying MSU, just like trukks are supposed to work. Buggies are shooting platforms, and way weaker than venoms since they don't have any invuln, -1 to hit or 6+ fnp. I play both orks and drukhari and never noticed a huge difference between venoms and trukks in terms of survivability.

 Jidmah wrote:
If you want 70 points trukks or 150 points BWs it's ok, just give them more wounds, more/better weapons, and add more buffs to the units inside. I'd accept a 70ppm trukk if it comes with 5 big shootas included in that cost.

A trukk with big shoota and wrekin' ball is definitely worth ~70 points. You really don't get anything a lot worse than a rhino for your points.


A trukk is basically a transport, nothing else. The single ranged weapon and the wrecking ball don't make any real difference. You also have to factor in the value of embarked units which usually are better on foot, unless they are tankbustas. Venoms are ok not only for their profile but also because carrying 5 kabalites with a blaster is useful, and there are other combinations that worth the effort of bringing a venom to the battlefield. Carrying 12 boyz isn't useful at all, same for flash gitz which don't want to move or meganobz who love extra bodies (like 10-12 boyz that shares the same BW), and burnaboyz are bad. Maybe 6 nobz plus 6 ammo runts. But even tankbustas + trukk is an overpriced combo with the current stats.

You get everything worse for even more points at the moment. It's less durable and it carries units that are overpriced or better on foot.

I regularly play all three vehicles considered above (venoms, trukks, rhinos) and the ork transports are certainly the less effective among those ones. And I don't play chaos, which makes use of rhinos even more efficiently.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/05/13 11:19:28


 
   
Made in us
Nasty Nob




Crescent City Fl..

 davou wrote:
the +1 attack for 20-+ models is huge for me. I prefer to play MSU, and all the army wide buffs for orks play into taking huge blobs.... None of which fit into trukks.

Thats the worst sin of the trukk design IMO, if you want to use them, you have to pay their arbitrarily high cost and lose Mob rule and +1 attack.


I get what your saying but I don't really see the problem. I put 12 boys in one trukk and 10 in another. When I am ready they get out and mob up and charge, or what ever. that's 22 modes, two of which are nobs.
and two trukks ready to charge. This could easily be supported by another large unit or two. between Storm boys and Da Jump. That, could be 40 boys or 40 Storm boys depending on the turn you plan to dismount the Trukk boys. Granted you may not want those units if your bringing an MSU list. I personally wont build a list that leaves out a means of strong Mob rule LD.
I guess it just depends on what that list is meant to do. (And other self imposed restrictions.)

Sigh, Yet another doomed attempt by man to bridge the gap between the material and spiritual worlds 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 warhead01 wrote:
 davou wrote:
the +1 attack for 20-+ models is huge for me. I prefer to play MSU, and all the army wide buffs for orks play into taking huge blobs.... None of which fit into trukks.

Thats the worst sin of the trukk design IMO, if you want to use them, you have to pay their arbitrarily high cost and lose Mob rule and +1 attack.


I get what your saying but I don't really see the problem. I put 12 boys in one trukk and 10 in another. When I am ready they get out and mob up and charge, or what ever. that's 22 modes, two of which are nobs.
and two trukks ready to charge. This could easily be supported by another large unit or two. between Storm boys and Da Jump. That, could be 40 boys or 40 Storm boys depending on the turn you plan to dismount the Trukk boys. Granted you may not want those units if your bringing an MSU list. I personally wont build a list that leaves out a means of strong Mob rule LD.
I guess it just depends on what that list is meant to do. (And other self imposed restrictions.)


2 units of trukk boyz that then mob up is a HUGE waste of points. 164pts to transport 22 bodies, 2 CP to combine the two units just to give you the bonus. You can literally do the same trick with Da Jump with more bodies for less points and no CP use. You could literally do the same things with just Stormboyz and be AS fast and have more bodies. 164+ 22 Ork boyz = 294 which in turn = almost 37 Storm boyz. So 22 Boyz and two trukkz, one of which if not both will be popped easily by enemy fire compared to 37 stormboyz.

 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
Made in us
Nasty Nob




Crescent City Fl..

SemperMortis wrote:
 warhead01 wrote:
 davou wrote:
the +1 attack for 20-+ models is huge for me. I prefer to play MSU, and all the army wide buffs for orks play into taking huge blobs.... None of which fit into trukks.

Thats the worst sin of the trukk design IMO, if you want to use them, you have to pay their arbitrarily high cost and lose Mob rule and +1 attack.


I get what your saying but I don't really see the problem. I put 12 boys in one trukk and 10 in another. When I am ready they get out and mob up and charge, or what ever. that's 22 modes, two of which are nobs.
and two trukks ready to charge. This could easily be supported by another large unit or two. between Storm boys and Da Jump. That, could be 40 boys or 40 Storm boys depending on the turn you plan to dismount the Trukk boys. Granted you may not want those units if your bringing an MSU list. I personally wont build a list that leaves out a means of strong Mob rule LD.
I guess it just depends on what that list is meant to do. (And other self imposed restrictions.)


2 units of trukk boyz that then mob up is a HUGE waste of points. 164pts to transport 22 bodies, 2 CP to combine the two units just to give you the bonus. You can literally do the same trick with Da Jump with more bodies for less points and no CP use. You could literally do the same things with just Stormboyz and be AS fast and have more bodies. 164+ 22 Ork boyz = 294 which in turn = almost 37 Storm boyz. So 22 Boyz and two trukkz, one of which if not both will be popped easily by enemy fire compared to 37 stormboyz.


I'm just saying it's an option not that it's optimal. It also, as I said, comes down to the list that person whats to play and their self imposed restrictions.

I've stopped using stormboys, they have been slaughters, they were too good in one game and after that marked for death in every game after that. I do wantthe use them again but I need other units, like trukks full of shtuff rushing ahead of them to make them less of a target.
If two trukks cost too much why not 2 mobs of 10 in a battle wagon.
Your worried about command points? why. what else are you going to use them on and how many are you bringing. Battalions now give like (is it?) 5 cps each now so, 2 battalions+ a what ever detachment and 3 cp's for being battle forged more is totally possible. (13 to 14 cp's.) Just what else are you doing with them that spending 2 is a big deal?
It really sucks that trukks are a waste of points for you. I don't have that problem at all.

Sigh, Yet another doomed attempt by man to bridge the gap between the material and spiritual worlds 
   
Made in it
Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

Without the codex 9 CPs (battallion+spearhead usually) are more than enough.

2x battallions means 6 troops which are a tax since MSU don't work at the moment, gretchins are suboptimal, 180 boyz are too boring to play and something like 4x30 + 2x10 may be decent but I'm not a fan of Mob Up and I prefer maximized units and optimized lists for less CPs since I'm not going to use CPs effectively anyway having a single crappy stratagem and not many D6 to re-roll.

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




wonderful for you, but in a competitive environment, either in META or tournament play, Trukkz are well beyond sub optimal and are firmly in the realm of Crap. As to what I spend my CP on? Rerolls and CC initiative. You can reroll once per phase, generally I do that 1-2 times a turn,sometimes more if its a really important turn, that eats up most CP right there. So why would I waste 2 to combine 22 boyz together? seems both redundant and silly.

 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
Made in us
Nasty Nob




Crescent City Fl..

 Blackie wrote:
Without the codex 9 CPs (battallion+spearhead usually) are more than enough.

2x battallions means 6 troops which are a tax since MSU don't work at the moment, gretchins are suboptimal, 180 boyz are too boring to play and something like 4x30 + 2x10 may be decent but I'm not a fan of Mob Up and I prefer maximized units and optimized lists for less CPs since I'm not going to use CPs effectively anyway having a single crappy stratagem and not many D6 to re-roll.


I'm getting different results with my Grots. Work fine for me. I only have a few MSU elements in my lists. So it's a mix of large and small units.
I bring about 60 boys in my lists because more than that has proven to be too much for my opponents and I drive for an hour forty just to play so I want every thing to be fun.
I plan my use of CP's into my list so I know I want 2 to 4 of them for mob up before we even set up models.
Any thing after that tends to be a reroll on a damage dice for like a Dr damage weapon, some times it's a good call. Until this year I had forgotten completely about the combat interruption stratagem.
It hadn't really been important anyway. No, not because I'm that good, lol. I just know how to take my lumps and deal with it.
MY usual opponent is fairly ruthless at this game so I expect and give no quarter to him. He wants to be tables or crushed but plays like a computer on hard mode. Due to having to schedual my games well in advance I am isolated from all the game nonsense I read about on line for the most part. Except for that one guy, I beat him he buys more tanks or what ever to "fix the wholes in his list for the next game." I'm forever ice skating up hill.





Automatically Appended Next Post:
SemperMortis wrote:
wonderful for you, but in a competitive environment, either in META or tournament play, Trukkz are well beyond sub optimal and are firmly in the realm of Crap. As to what I spend my CP on? Rerolls and CC initiative. You can reroll once per phase, generally I do that 1-2 times a turn,sometimes more if its a really important turn, that eats up most CP right there. So why would I waste 2 to combine 22 boyz together? seems both redundant and silly.


Well, your competitive environment sounds simply miserable. Good luck in your future endeavors? I've read your posts for a few years. There's no point arguing with you at all. Hell, you know what's best, just do that and I'm sure everything will be fine!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/13 21:00:57


Sigh, Yet another doomed attempt by man to bridge the gap between the material and spiritual worlds 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 warhead01 wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
SemperMortis wrote:
wonderful for you, but in a competitive environment, either in META or tournament play, Trukkz are well beyond sub optimal and are firmly in the realm of Crap. As to what I spend my CP on? Rerolls and CC initiative. You can reroll once per phase, generally I do that 1-2 times a turn,sometimes more if its a really important turn, that eats up most CP right there. So why would I waste 2 to combine 22 boyz together? seems both redundant and silly.


Well, your competitive environment sounds simply miserable. Good luck in your future endeavors? I've read your posts for a few years. There's no point arguing with you at all. Hell, you know what's best, just do that and I'm sure everything will be fine!


LMAO, again with this nonsense "I don't play competitive games so therefore I must know whats best for game balance." I am glad you have a friendly META and enjoy playing friendly games instead of competitive, more power to you. But for those of us who enjoy the thrill of competition we want the game to be as balanced as possible. So to summarize, I am happy for you, but stop trying to dictate the needs of the game based upon non-competitive gaming. If the game becomes more balanced for competitive gamer's then the game becomes more balanced and fun for friendly gamers. You do it the other way around and we are left with huge imbalances and crap play in competitive environments.

 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





You might be able to reasonably expect a Trukk will go to 60 or 65 points.

Drukhari Raider is 65 points.
- T5 4+
- Open topped
- 5++
- Fly
- +2" move
- Hits on 4s for melee

Ramshackle is sort of like a 6+++, but more random.
It can get a 5++, but we shouldn't really cost it for that - no law against it though.
Trukk is marginally tougher.
Can't fly and negligibly slower (imo).

55 points might be the absolute bottom, but I'd anticipate 60 or 65 with some tweaks.




   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Daedalus81 wrote:
You might be able to reasonably expect a Trukk will go to 60 or 65 points.

Drukhari Raider is 65 points.
- T5 4+
- Open topped
- 5++
- Fly
- +2" move
- Hits on 4s for melee

Ramshackle is sort of like a 6+++, but more random.
It can get a 5++, but we shouldn't really cost it for that - no law against it though.
Trukk is marginally tougher.
Can't fly and negligibly slower (imo).

55 points might be the absolute bottom, but I'd anticipate 60 or 65 with some tweaks.


55pts might be doable if they give it a buff, 60-65 is still in the realm of too much for too little. T5-T6 is almost the same thing, throw in the 5++ and it goes completely to the DE vehicle. its faster, can fly and hits better in melee...so its ONE downside is its T5 instead of T6 with fewer wounds.

 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
Made in ru
!!Goffik Rocker!!






Trukks are a hard thing to make work. They're currently passable for transporting tankbustas. But transporting boyz is close to pointless. Boyz need a whole different transport. Cheaper. Much cheaper in fact.
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





 Daedalus81 wrote:
You might be able to reasonably expect a Trukk will go to 60 or 65 points.

Drukhari Raider is 65 points.
- T5 4+
- Open topped
- 5++
- Fly
- +2" move
- Hits on 4s for melee

Ramshackle is sort of like a 6+++, but more random.
It can get a 5++, but we shouldn't really cost it for that - no law against it though.
Trukk is marginally tougher.
Can't fly and negligibly slower (imo).


Something to consider is though contents. Trukk as is works(though overpriced) for...Tank bustas. For boyz it's not that good. Trukk with 12 boyz just isn't as much of a threat as raider with warriors is. What you can put into transport factors in heavily how useful it actually is.

Oh and that 5++ and fly are huge. Meanwhile T6 isn't nearly as much of a help. It's good vs basically heavy bolters. Yey. 5++ is much more useful and ability to disengage freely and ignore enemy models is pretty darn sweet.

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in it
Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

55 points for a trukk may be ok if the embarked units gain significant buffs. Like the +1A for boyz that are 10+ instead of 20+, D6 damage power klaws, cheaper tankbustas/nobz/meganobz, more effective burnaboyz, etc...

A raider with warriors works well because it has a good weapon mounted plus the poisoned shots and a couple of blasters fired by the units embarked. It's a nice amount of firepower for less than 180 points. Raiders also work well because the best drukhari units are all T5-7 and compete for the same weapons while it's hard to bring a full mechanized ork list that is also efficient.

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Not an Ork change, but a change that does need to happen in a future FAQ or CA is some kind of penalty to falling back. At the moment I am sick and tired of my opponent just hopping out of CC like it was nothing and leaving my unit that just advanced for 2 turns through a hail of fire and then overwatch completely exposed to yet another round of shooting.

The arguments against it so far aren't exactly strong, this is how i view it.

If your unit is stuck in CC against a superior foe then you 3 options. 1: stay stuck in and hope you survive one more round of combat and die on HIS turn. 2: Assault into combat with a better CC unit and then turn the tide that way or 3: Flip the enemy the finger and slowly walk out of combat with no penalty other then not shooting/assaulting.

Option 3 is the most prevalent and most annoying, and I say it has no real penalty because your other options were to stand and die or stay stuck in CC indefinitely. So walking out of combat and letting everyone shoot the hell out of the enemy isn't exactly a penalty as its a trade off, not shoot because your in CC or not shoot because your fleeing CC.

Even something as little as the enemy getting 1 free round of CC against your unit that is fleeing would be fairer then just walking away.

That wouldn't exactly fix all the problems right now with CC but it would at least make it a bit more fair, and might justify using trukk boyz a bit more if they get some kind of bonus to CC.

 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






Option 2 really isn't an option in reality.
In order for it to happen
1) The assaulting unit must be better in combat than when shooting. While may sound silly, almost every space marine unit in the game is better at shooting than it is at combat. Having one unit drop from combat and shooting you with the other is always superior to charging both of them into combat and taking additional casualties.
2) You need the unit already in combat to finish the fight. Which means that you charged something into combat that is not strong enough to finish the fight, but somehow manages to finish the fight if helped by a unit that has already taken one fight phase worth of casualties. If I'm charging a daemon prince, I'm sure as hell pulling my plague marines from that combat. He is going to wipe the floor with whatever I've charged, and if something is still alive to fight back, I do not want it to hit and potentially kill a 17 pt plague marine. I'm already not shooting this turn, the only thing to lose is 5-8 S4 attacks that probably won't kill a single model.

Not disagreeing with you, but you don't really need to stay in combat if you have an assault unit near to clean up the mess. The only reason to stay in combat is to keep the charging unit tied down.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for trukks vs. venoms:

I'm not going to do the math to show that trukks are vastly more survivable than venoms against a lot of things. T6 matters a lot against a bunch of weapons like assault cannons, lasguns, plague grenades, star cannons, scatter lasers, heavy bolters and more that are very common in many armies. 5++ is not going to compensate for lasguns wound twice as often.
Four additional wounds also matter a lot, try to kill a venom with your warboss and then try to kill a trukk. Last, but not least, smite is still a thing, two or three smites are enough to kill a venom.
Stat-wise, a trukk is not a venom, but a rhino.

The real issue is that orks don't need rhinos, we need venoms. We used to have rhinos for many years (looted wagon) and no one used them. The only reason trukks see play at the moment because BW are even worse.
In 5th a trukk had the same stat line as a warbuggy. If it went back to that, we could drop the points by a lot and solve most issues trukks have.

Alas, I don't think GW is willing to make such a drastic change.
Dropping trukks with their current stat line to 40 points like some suggested will break the game.
You could take 10 of them just for the heck of it and use them to wall in Moration - even if every single one of his attacks and shots hits and wounds and he does not degrade, it will take him five turns to fight through all of them and you could completely neutralize him by following him around the the swarm of trukks, blocking his movement and charging him - for just 400 points. And now think about what they could do if you were trying to tarpit something that's not the most powerful combatant in the game.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2018/05/17 11:09:27


7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. 
   
Made in it
Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

 Jidmah wrote:

As for trukks vs. venoms:

I'm not going to do the math to show that trukks are vastly more survivable than venoms against a lot of things. T6 matters a lot against a bunch of weapons like assault cannons, lasguns, plague grenades, star cannons, scatter lasers, heavy bolters and more that are very common in many armies. 5++ is not going to compensate for lasguns wound twice as often.
Four additional wounds also matter a lot, try to kill a venom with your warboss and then try to kill a trukk. Last, but not least, smite is still a thing, two or three smites are enough to kill a venom.
Stat-wise, a trukk is not a venom, but a rhino.


I'm too lazy to do the math as well, but venoms don't have only the 5+ invuln, there's also the -1 to hit to consider (good against everything, amazing vs plasma) and sometimes even the 6++ FNP granted by the black heart obsession which is very common, I always rely on that bonus and with 10ish veicles the 6++ ignore wound is huge.

And yet at 65 points venoms are considered overcosted by many drukhari players.

Another thing to consider about trukks vs venoms is that venoms can be the transport of 1-2 lone HQs or 5 kabalites with a blasters. Both cheap and effective options, while a unit of trukk boyz is way more expensive (167 points vs 112) and not very performing. Carrying specialists is even more expensive and only tankbustas make a decent combo with trukks. Unless the units embarked gain some significant bonus by the codex a 70ish points trukk will always be sub optimal.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/17 18:53:04


 
   
Made in ru
!!Goffik Rocker!!






Well, i've done some math. It takes around 12 overheating plasma shots to kill a trukk and 16 to kill a venom. 7 lazcannon shots to kill a trukk and 9 to kill a venom. A trukk is only more durable vs some s5+ anti-infantry weapons with low ap. Don't forget that a venom shoots better, has fly, is faster, doesn't degrade iirc and is cheaper to boot.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/05/17 19:50:06


 
   
Made in gb
Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta






 koooaei wrote:
Well, i've done some math. It takes around 12 overheating plasma shots to kill a trukk and 16 to kill a venom. 7 lazcannon shots to kill a trukk and 9 to kill a venom. A trukk is only more durable vs some s5+ anti-infantry weapons with low ap. Don't forget that a venom shoots better, has fly, is faster, doesn't degrade iirc and is cheaper to boot.

I genuinely don't think GW know this. I'd put money on it.

The one thing we do have (that doesn't make a massive difference but still) is Meks that can repair our armour at will.
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






 koooaei wrote:
Well, i've done some math. It takes around 12 overheating plasma shots to kill a trukk and 16 to kill a venom. 7 lazcannon shots to kill a trukk and 9 to kill a venom. A trukk is only more durable vs some s5+ anti-infantry weapons with low ap. Don't forget that a venom shoots better, has fly, is faster, doesn't degrade iirc and is cheaper to boot.


Average damage of an overcharged plasma gun against trukk, including ramshackle: 1.630 = 6.13 shots
Same against venom, including nightshields and flickerfield: 0.889 = 6.76 shots

7 overcharged BS 3+ plasma shots will kill either on average, while the venom might set a few imperials on fire in the process. In reality, venoms will probably not get shot by overcharged plasma

Average damage of lascannon against trukk, including ramshackle: 1.370 = 7.30 shots
Same against venom, including nightshields and flickerfield: 0.778 = 7.71 shots

So yes, the trukk is more vulnerable to high AP weapons due to not having an invulnerable save without a KFF nearby, but not by huge amount. I doubt you will see the difference in a regular game, a lucky damage roll might destroy a venom in a single shot, or a string of successful 5++ saves can make it seem invulnerable.

Just for fun:
Warboss on warbike, with PK, attack squig and combi-skorcha
Shooting:
1.167 to trukk
1.417 to venom
Combat:
4.814 to trukk
4.814 to venom
Total:
5.981 to trukk
6.231 to venom

Venom is dead, trukk lives.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 An Actual Englishman wrote:
The one thing we do have (that doesn't make a massive difference but still) is Meks that can repair our armour at will.

Not practical with trukks though, since the biker big mek is forbidden from repairing after moving more than 5", while the big mek on foot can advance up to 11" and still repair stuff

A big mek close enough to repair the trukk would provide a KFF save though, which does make a massive difference. KFFs aren't free though, especially if you bring enough to cover an entire army of trukks.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/18 06:28:43


7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. 
   
 
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