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So I was reading a discussion of Psycker Battle Squads, and their Weaken Resolve psychic power, and it occurred to me that it resembled the Necron Pariah ("A Necron Pariah is not a Necron", ) Soulless rule in that it changed a unit's Leadership.

I was involved in a thread where some people argued that because the Rites of Battle rule allowed a unit to use a Dark Angel/Blood Angel/Sicarius's Ld10, a unit that was affected by Soulless would be able to test on Ld10 rather than the Ld7 they had due to the effect of Soulless. The argument being that although the unit had Ld7 due to Soulless, it was using the Captain's Leadership of 10.

It seems to me that these people would argue for a similar result during the interaction of Weaken Resolve and Rites of Battle.

What do ye think, O Dakka?

Weaken resolve does not change the Ld Characteristic, it applies a Negative Modifier (a subtle but important difference). So you would still use Ld10, just Ld10 minus whatever.

Weaken Resolve changes the Leadership value of the target unit, so I would say if they use Rites of Battle, they use the Ld 10, not the lower leadership.

KeithGatchalian wrote:
Weaken Resolve changes the Leadership value of the target unit, so I would say if they use Rites of Battle, they use the Ld 10, not the lower leadership.

No it doesn't. The "Enemy units Leadership is reduced" which is the same as a Leadership Modifier. If it said "Becomes Leadership X" then it would be changing the Stat itself.

Its a good question.

I think I agree with Waaaaagh! at first glance.

But I need to think about this and look over some stuff to be sure.

"the enemy unit's Leadership is reduced by the number of Sanctioned Psykers....." Doesn't sound much like a "modifier, sounds like it's actually changing the stat line. Just my opinion.

As for the OP. Yeah, I tend to agree that the unit would be able to use Sicarius' leadership 10.

You are acutally reducing the Leadership value, not imposing a modifier on the unit.

When you lose a close combat, the difference in wounds is a modifier.

One way to look at it; They have Sic's leadership as soon as he is fielded with an army. Its not a replacement, upon somthing happening. Like a re-roll, for example. That unit (every unit) gets his leadership of 10. They dont become him, or tests become his to make while still not being targetted specifically or some other magics.. its simply that they get to use his leadership of 10 (at the start of the game) and it is that leadership value of 10 that gets modifyed.

Another way to look at it; in both books the term Leadership is used to represent the number under the Ld collum. So, rather than using a sgt's Ld of 9, you instead you Sic's Ld of 10. That still gets reduced (its still Leadership, nothing changed in the wording between codexes) by x.

@ Razerous, the first way of looking at it is incorrect. The rule is "If Sicarius is on the table, all other space marine units can use his leadership for any moral or pinning tests". As it is written it does not give SM units his leadership value, but allows them to use it when testing. The can in the rule is the key word, it suggests that they retain their initial Ld value and may choose to use his.
The issue is what this means. Does it mean they get it as he has it, i.e. at 10 because he is not affected by the negative modifier, or does it become a part of their statline and then get modified, as in your second scenario. If we are going by the rules strictly as written, I would suggest the first reading is the more correct one, because the rule states that they are using his leadership, not they may substitute his leadership value as their own. Interestingly, this suggest if his unit has its LD reduced, all other units that may use his LD, for instance one with reduced Ld, would use the reduced value, because it is his leadership at the moment.

Additionally, can someone post the weaken resolve rule as written. I would like to see how it reads. I would be hesitant to say it was a modifier if it does not say modifier within the entry.

I wouold say you apply the two together:

First apply weaken resolve: leadership of target unit is now [original -X] , x=no of psykers

Secondm when it comes time to take a test the unit chooses to use Sics ld of 10. They do not use their own, modified leadership, but their boss. This leadership has not been the target of WR and so is not changed.

It is the same as the horror power, where leadership is reduced in a bubble - if the model allowing the affected unit to "use" its leadership is outside the bubble, you would use the unmodified leadership.

This is also different to Orks Mob Rule: their they use their mob size as leadership value in place of their exisitng leadership value - this would then be affected by WR

The base state of any stat is that it is modifiable.
When this isnt the case, it is spelled out (like WH BoL).

Rites of Battle does not tell us to use the commanders unmodified Leadership. Just to use his Leadership.....which is modified by Weaken Resolve.

Weaken Resolve is most certainly a modifier. It just happens to be a modifier that isnt fixed.....just like CC resolution isnt fixed.

Steelmage - except that WR modifies the units leadership, NOT the leadership they use from RoB. by the time they take the test the application of WR has passed.

So? All RoB Does is let them use Ld10 In place of their normal Leadership. You still apply any and all Mods to it

This arguement seems to really be based on timing. So let's look at the order in which things happen.

1. The PBS lowers a unit's leadership.

2. The IG shooot said unit, forcing a morale check from casualties.

3. The targeted unit chooses to use Sic's leadership instead of their leadership.

4. Since Sic's leadership wasn't lowered (only the original unit's was), the unit now uses LD 10 instead of their reduced LD.

I could be worng about this, but the timing in which things happen leads me to think that Rites of Battle is a great counter to the PBS, unless people take 2x PBS and lower Sic's LD, as well.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Steelmage - except that WR modifies the units leadership, NOT the leadership they use from RoB. by the time they take the test the application of WR has passed.

I disagree with that. For the entire turn WR reduces the unit's Ld by X amount. So even if they get another model's Ld transplanted I don't see any reason WR doesn't reduce that Ld as well for the test.

Alerian wrote:
I could be worng about this, but the timing in which things happen leads me to think that Rites of Battle is a great counter to the PBS, unless people take 2x PBS and lower Sic's LD, as well.

Here's what I see:


1. The PBS lowers a unit's leadership for the entire turn.

2. The IG shooot said unit, forcing a morale check from casualties.

3. The targeted unit chooses to use Sic's leadership instead of their leadership.

4. Since Weaken Resolve is still affecting the unit the Ld value is reduced.

My point is that Sic's LD doesn't replace the unit's LD. If it did, then i can see the reduction from WR carrying over.

Instead the target unit "can use his (Sic's) Leadership" for tests. If Sic wasn't targeted by WR, then that LD is still 10.

I think there is a big difference between "using" someone els's LD, and having your LD replaced by theirs. Sure, one unit's LD might be reduced, but if they then choose to use another unit's LD, instead of their own, I don't see a reduction carrying over.

yakface wrote:

Alerian wrote:
I could be worng about this, but the timing in which things happen leads me to think that Rites of Battle is a great counter to the PBS, unless people take 2x PBS and lower Sic's LD, as well.

Here's what I see:


1. The PBS lowers a unit's leadership for the entire turn.

2. The IG shooot said unit, forcing a morale check from casualties.

3. The targeted unit chooses to use Sic's leadership instead of their leadership.

4. Since Weaken Resolve is still affecting the unit the Ld value is reduced.

100% Correct. You are still using Ld10, but its LD10 minus x because of WR

I agree with Alerian. The precise wording of WR is as follows:

Choose one enemy unit within 36" and line of sight of the Psyker Battle Squad. For the remainder of the turn, the enemy unit's Leadership is reduced by the number of Sanctioned Psykers in the unit utlising the power (to a minimum of 2).

That seems to me that it changes the statline itself for the rest of the turn, not the roll as Yak seems to imply.
For instance, imagine RoB said "Use the unit's squad size instead of the leadership value for the test." Would one have the penalty then? If so, then you are penalizing the roll, not the stat.
It seems to me that Siccy's Ld value is as divorced from the target unit's Ld value as it's squad size.

The units leadership is reduced

Sics leadership is used for the test, but does not replace the units leadership (use, not replace) - cf to the Ork mob rule which specifically replqaces their leadership - this is critical for them as otherwise Weirdboyz wouldnt have Ld10 for psychic tests

As the unit is not using their leadership WR cannot apply to Sic. It is not "their" leadership, which is what WR affects.

Wehrkind wrote:I agree with Alerian. The precise wording of WR is as follows:

Choose one enemy unit within 36" and line of sight of the Psyker Battle Squad. For the remainder of the turn, the enemy unit's Leadership is reduced by the number of Sanctioned Psykers in the unit utlising the power (to a minimum of 2).

That seems to me that it changes the statline itself for the rest of the turn, not the roll as Yak seems to imply.
For instance, imagine RoB said "Use the unit's squad size instead of the leadership value for the test." Would one have the penalty then? If so, then you are penalizing the roll, not the stat.
It seems to me that Siccy's Ld value is as divorced from the target unit's Ld value as it's squad size.

Based off of what I've read so far (and I'd love to see an exact quote of Sicarius' rule), my thinking here is that WR will not work. Sic's leadership does not strike me as a constant that is always in effect. Rather it may be used by other units when taking morale and/or pinning tests. So the way I see it:

Psyker BS WRs target unit A, reducing their leadership to let's say 3
Target A is fired upon suffering enough casualties to trigger a morale test at the end of the Shoooting phase
Target A ?elects? to use Sic's LD replacing their reduced LD, and makes a Morale test.

What I'm not sure of, and what I don't think Yak has sufficiently demonstrated (at least for me) is that WR retroactively applies to Sic's leadership value when a targeted unit decides to use it. Granted I'm making a couple of assumptions about Sic's ability, which is why I'd like to see an actual rules quote.

-Yad

Gee whiz, I'm the Guard player and here I am supporting the position that they get Sicarius' LD 10, unchanged by Weaken Resolve. Something is wrong with this scenario.............

To me, the WR is not a modifier, it's a temporary change in the unit's stat line. If it were a modifier (like losing combat by 2), then it would apply to any LD used by the unit.

"If Sicarius is on the table, all other space marine units can use his leadership for any moral or pinning tests".

There ya go

It is this wording that is key. Sic never replaces the targeted unit's LD, and WR only applies to the target unit's LD, not to the tests that they make. If WR applied to LD tests, or if Sic's LD actually replaced the target unit's LD, then I could see WR trumping RoB, but that is not the case.

Thanks to Rights fo Battle, the target unit can use Sic's unmodified LD10 for tests, rather than their own LD that was lowered by WR. The only way see WR getting around RoB, is to cast WR on Sic, as well.

Choose one enemy unit within 36" and line of sight of the Psyker Battle Squad. For the remainder of the turn, the enemy unit's Leadership is reduced by the number of Sanctioned Psykers in the unit utlising the power (to a minimum of 2).

don_mondo wrote:Gee whiz, I'm the Guard player and here I am supporting the position that they get Sicarius' LD 10, unchanged by Weaken Resolve. Something is wrong with this scenario.............

To me, the WR is not a modifier, it's a temporary change in the unit's stat line. If it were a modifier (like losing combat by 2), then it would apply to any LD used by the unit.

Wait, why isn't this a modifier? It says that it reduces (modifies) by X amount of psykers...the exact same as losing combat by X wounds, (just this is by # of psykers, not wounds of course) sounds like a modifier to me....

I disagree with Yakface on this.

PG. 47 of the IG Codex:

"For the remainder of the turn, the enemy unit's Leadership is reduced by the number of Sanctioned Psykers in the unit utilizing the power (to a minimum of 2)."

PG. 85 of the SM Codex:

"If Sicarius is on the table, all other Space Marine units can use his Leadership for any Morale or Pinning tests."

It's been a long time, but here is my logical argument:

P1: Weaken Resolve lowers the Leadership of the target unit
P2: A unit may use another model's leadership
C: Though Weaken Resolve lowers the leadership of the unit, it doesn't affect the leadership the unit is testing on

The argument that weaken resolve is a modifier doesn't make since as none is implied. Weaken resolve changes the leadership characteristic on the unit for a period of time, but rities of battle presents the option for a unit to use another models leadership. Now if weaken resolved is used against Sicarus, that is a different story.

Thanks Alerian, makes perfect sense to me. Units 'can' use Sicarius' LD when making Morale and/or pinning tests. This implies that the choice is made when those respective tests are taken. As such, Sic's LD is not a constant value for all units.

Weaken Resolve in no way implies that it works retroactively upon a unit's LD, after they choose to use Sicarius' LD.

So to sum up:

1. Psker BS squad successfully uses WR on Marine unit A, reducing their current LD value to 3.
2. Marine unit A suffers enough casualties to trigger a Morale test at the end of the Shooting phase.
3. At the end of the Shooting Phase, all applicable Morale tests must now be taken.
4. Marine Unit A chooses to use Sicarius' LD value, replacing the reduced leadership caused by WR.
5. WR does not retroactively apply to the new LD value allowing Marine unit A to test with LD 10.

-Yad

Eight Ball wrote:

Choose one enemy unit within 36" and line of sight of the Psyker Battle Squad. For the remainder of the turn, the enemy unit's Leadership is reduced by the number of Sanctioned Psykers in the unit utlising the power (to a minimum of 2).

don_mondo wrote:Gee whiz, I'm the Guard player and here I am supporting the position that they get Sicarius' LD 10, unchanged by Weaken Resolve. Something is wrong with this scenario.............

To me, the WR is not a modifier, it's a temporary change in the unit's stat line. If it were a modifier (like losing combat by 2), then it would apply to any LD used by the unit.

Wait, why isn't this a modifier? It says that it reduces (modifies) by X amount of psykers...the exact same as losing combat by X wounds, (just this is by # of psykers, not wounds of course) sounds like a modifier to me....

I would concede that Weaken Resolve can be seen as a modifier, but I don't see a logical argument that a modifier to a units leadership is carried over to another unit.

Weaken Resolve modifies the units leadership, but the unit can choose to use another models leadership. Therefore the model is ultimately not testing on it's own leadership.

I just don't see the argument that a modifier to a units leadership is translated to another models leadership.

Eight Ball wrote:

Choose one enemy unit within 36" and line of sight of the Psyker Battle Squad. For the remainder of the turn, the enemy unit's Leadership is reduced by the number of Sanctioned Psykers in the unit utlising the power (to a minimum of 2).

don_mondo wrote:Gee whiz, I'm the Guard player and here I am supporting the position that they get Sicarius' LD 10, unchanged by Weaken Resolve. Something is wrong with this scenario.............

To me, the WR is not a modifier, it's a temporary change in the unit's stat line. If it were a modifier (like losing combat by 2), then it would apply to any LD used by the unit.

Wait, why isn't this a modifier? It says that it reduces (modifies) by X amount of psykers...the exact same as losing combat by X wounds, (just this is by # of psykers, not wounds of course) sounds like a modifier to me....

Weaken Resolve reduces the actual LD value of the models in the unit, it is not a plus or minus to the die roll.

Mahu wrote:

Eight Ball wrote:

Choose one enemy unit within 36" and line of sight of the Psyker Battle Squad. For the remainder of the turn, the enemy unit's Leadership is reduced by the number of Sanctioned Psykers in the unit utlising the power (to a minimum of 2).

don_mondo wrote:Gee whiz, I'm the Guard player and here I am supporting the position that they get Sicarius' LD 10, unchanged by Weaken Resolve. Something is wrong with this scenario.............

To me, the WR is not a modifier, it's a temporary change in the unit's stat line. If it were a modifier (like losing combat by 2), then it would apply to any LD used by the unit.

Wait, why isn't this a modifier? It says that it reduces (modifies) by X amount of psykers...the exact same as losing combat by X wounds, (just this is by # of psykers, not wounds of course) sounds like a modifier to me....

I would concede that Weaken Resolve can be seen as a modifier, but I don't see a logical argument that a modifier to a units leadership is carried over to another unit.

Weaken Resolve modifies the units leadership, but the unit can choose to use another models leadership. Therefore the model is ultimately not testing on it's own leadership.

I just don't see the argument that a modifier to a units leadership is translated to another models leadership.

If it were a modifier, it would carry over. Lose the combat by 4, your Morale test suffers a -4 modifier to whatever LD you choose to use, your own or Sicarius'. That's a modifier. That's why I think it's important that we realize that WR is not a modifier, but an actual, albeit temporary, change to the models statline.

How is a "actual, albeit temporary, change to the models statline" not a modifier?